Transavia to fly from BRU with 2 Boeing 737s in Summer 2020

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convair
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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by convair » 23 Nov 2019, 11:22

Poiu wrote:
23 Nov 2019, 11:03
convair wrote:
23 Nov 2019, 10:47
Right, but also the fact that the hub and spoke model gives you a better chance to keep a higher market share at home.
With the right price the home market share, if there is one at the first place, won’t be a problem.
Today direct flights are more expensive than flying a detour to connect, this is distorting the market and it should not be supported by incentives.
Yes, many pax will choose price over comfort. With or without incentives, airlines offer them lower prices to fill their long-haul flights. Reducing airport tax for connecting pax could be an acceptable measure, imho.
I don't really care if the pax next to me is paying less ( it's been the case for decades and for multiple reasons, good or bad) as he/she's often compromising on comfort. I'm free to do likewise.

Poiu
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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by Poiu » 23 Nov 2019, 12:07

convair wrote:
23 Nov 2019, 11:22
Yes, many pax will choose price over comfort. With or without incentives, airlines offer them lower prices to fill their long-haul flights. Reducing airport tax for connecting pax could be an acceptable measure, imho.
I don't really care if the pax next to me is paying less ( it's been the case for decades and for multiple reasons, good or bad) as he/she's often compromising on comfort. I'm free to do likewise.
Strange logic:
-you support incentives which make your comfortable nonstop flight more expensive
-you are happy to subsidise the seat next to you, which will reduce your comfort due to connecting delays, airspace and airport congestion...
But as you say, you are free to do so!

convair
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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by convair » 23 Nov 2019, 12:26

Poiu wrote:
23 Nov 2019, 12:07
convair wrote:
23 Nov 2019, 11:22
Yes, many pax will choose price over comfort. With or without incentives, airlines offer them lower prices to fill their long-haul flights. Reducing airport tax for connecting pax could be an acceptable measure, imho.
I don't really care if the pax next to me is paying less ( it's been the case for decades and for multiple reasons, good or bad) as he/she's often compromising on comfort. I'm free to do likewise.
Strange logic:
-you support incentives which make your comfortable nonstop flight more expensive
-you are happy to subsidise the seat next to you, which will reduce your comfort due to connecting delays, airspace and airport congestion...
But as you say, you are free to do so!
As I said, it's been like that for decades. I can moan about it, but, without that "subsidized" pax on board, the airline would have to raise its prices for that flight, so I would pay even more; I would have the satisfaction to know that all pax would be paying the same (or would they really?), or that would be an incentive for me to compromize on comfort and choose lower price connecting flights. ;)
I also know that each time I fly business, I (or whoever pays for my ticket) subsidize the Y pax on that same flight! :) That's life! Life is often unfair, isn't it? :)

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Conti764
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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by Conti764 » 23 Nov 2019, 12:31

Atlantis wrote:
22 Nov 2019, 22:52
Conti764 wrote:
22 Nov 2019, 17:28
Atlantis wrote:
20 Nov 2019, 14:42


BRU has a say in this, of course. Those requests comes in by the slot coordination center. Then a whole investigation starts as a lot of criteria has to be followed. This is a whole procedure.

Certain routes has indeed a high frequency, especially Spain. There is a demand for. For Europe the Spanish destinations are very high ranked bcs Belgians has a second domicile there or bcs of holidays of course.

For the moment, we don't know anything regarding the plans of SN and the flights which they organized for Thomas Cook. Still those people has to be transported.

Don't forget that in a short period, two players felt away (or almost): Thomas Cook who went bankrupt and SN who is in reboot. SN will shrink: shrinking is sinking. Other players will jump into this gap.

Transavia will do this now. They will check for sure how is the market. So they start carefully with known destinations. It might be that they can grow further with totally other destinations. More will be known when SN will drop some destinations. If Wizz air and Transavia can take over some slots or if they will request for those slots, they can.

Regarding Intercontinental flights. Yes, I fully agree, there are certain destinations who are missing, very badly missing. With a shrinking SN it will not help to convince them and this is a shame. You can safe money on many ways but not in making yourself smaller bcs you lose market which others will pick up.
The next season will be more interesting to see who will add more
BRU might help SN with more favourable fees, etc...

For Tui just as well to be complete.
If you do it for one, then you have to do it for all.
We are living in Europe, which is good, but when it comes to help one of your key players it's not. Europe will see this as illegal and I know already 3 other airlines who also will go to court.

So the best what BRU can do is to lower the fees for everybody. As SN is the biggest player, they will also have the biggest advantage
Why would the EU decide against a commercial agreement between two private companies?

Poiu
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Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by Poiu » 23 Nov 2019, 14:05

convair wrote:
23 Nov 2019, 12:26
As I said, it's been like that for decades
So why do you travel by ait in the first place, we’ve managed without for decades?
I suppose you don’t have a mobile phone, computer or internet connection either...

Innovation is needed to fix the broken model of hub and spoke, especially, at secondary airports. Rather sooner than later anti climate measures will put an end to it anyway.

DeltaWiskey
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Joined: 13 Oct 2010, 18:33

Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by DeltaWiskey » 23 Nov 2019, 17:02

Poiu wrote:
23 Nov 2019, 12:07
Strange logic:
-you support incentives which make your comfortable nonstop flight more expensive
-you are happy to subsidise the seat next to you, which will reduce your comfort due to connecting delays, airspace and airport congestion...
But as you say, you are free to do so!
Your logic is flawed as well. Ticket prices are determined on supply and demand, it has almost nothing to do with the cost base. That's why some passengers pay €30 and some pay €300 for the exact same ticket. You can't say that the expensive one is subsidising the cheap one, both prices don't have anything to do with their cost bast (which is exactly the same).

Poiu
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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by Poiu » 23 Nov 2019, 18:04

DeltaWiskey wrote:
23 Nov 2019, 17:02

Your logic is flawed as well. Ticket prices are determined on supply and demand, it has almost nothing to do with the cost base. That's why some passengers pay €30 and some pay €300 for the exact same ticket. You can't say that the expensive one is subsidising the cheap one, both prices don't have anything to do with their cost bast (which is exactly the same).
I am familiar with supply and demand, my brother is a revenue manager...
We are not discussing supply and demand here, but buying two tickets on the same flight bought at the same time but with a different cost base.

Inquirer
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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by Inquirer » 23 Nov 2019, 23:26

Poiu wrote:
22 Nov 2019, 21:51
No LCC competition will make intra European travel more expensive and will increase the profit of feeder airlines, there is no benefit for travellers nor for airports. If Austrian halts their NRT service, locals who need to fly from Vienna to Tokyo will fly via Fra, LHR, Cdg,.. but they will still fly in and out of Vie.
Oh, the locals will indeed, but VIE will still lose because non-locals won't pass through it any longer on their way to NRT, of course!

Not to mention not every passenger is of the same value to an airport operator.
I suppose Atlantis can confirm one of the main reasons BRU is so fond of attracting more intercontinental flying is because it knows the revenu from a single passenger on one of those flights is far higher than from any other kind of passenger, so these are expensive losses in fact.

Besides hub airports have thousands of square feet of office space, hotels, parkings and meeting rooms to fill: I doubt it's easy to fill those if your portfolio of destinations consists of regional leisure routes only: have a look at CRL and compare it to BRU, first in passenger numbers and than other revenu sources.
See the point?

Finally, let's look beyond just the own balance sheet and go for the wider picture for a second.
An international airport is today's gateway to a county: the better connected this country is, the easier it is to conduct business there and the more investment it can attract, so for any country it's of prime importance to have as many links as possible with the outside world, and especially places where business is conducted.

Are you seriously telling us medium sized countries like Austria or Belgium should just give up and become SME territory only? While The Netherlands or Switzerland can go for big business?
It's interesting to note how the latter two have a restricted airport preventing an unlimited LCC influx and thus allow the home based airline to support a global network… has it ever crossed your mind that it may actually be a smart idea to somehow create an airport environment similar to theirs in support of the countries global economy?


The thing is the European Single Market is a broken market, in that it ONLY levels the playing field WITHIN the European market, so it benefits only those companies which ONLY operate either completely IN it or OUT (as it doesn't affect them), vs those who are of mixed operations.
It's not just related to aviation btw, it's in every field in fact and it's starting to be understood by the EU too: just look at the ridiculous way in which the EC prevented Siemens to merge with Alstom to make a real competitor for Chinese companies, because it would create a too big group within the EU.
https://bruegel.org/2019/03/the-alstom- ... champions/

Seriously: there has to be some consideration of the wider picture beyond just the immediate positive effect for the European consumer, because we're about to give a large part of our economic activity in Europe away just for the sake of an obsession to have unlimited competition and the lowest price possible on certain routes only, whereas on other similar routes we clearly don't care? Indeed, why should it be made possible to fly for 30 euro to VIE but not LHR for instance? Because the latter happens to be capacity restricted by historic size, iso by political choice? And so at airports which happen to be restricted by size, the home based airlines can happily continue to charge vistitors to their country's gateway a premium in support of their global network, whereas at the others those airlines can't? So effectively countries which happen to have limited the capacity of their aiport somehow in the past can now have their economy reap the benefit of that reluctancy to invest in infrastructure, whereas those who have provided ample capacity can't and have to settle for an economic loss? Weird reasoning to say the least.

DeltaWiskey
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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by DeltaWiskey » 24 Nov 2019, 11:21

Poiu wrote:
23 Nov 2019, 18:04
..., but buying two tickets on the same flight bought at the same time but with a different cost base.
Even in that case, the pricing is also set by supply and demand.

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Yuqu12
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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by Yuqu12 » 24 Nov 2019, 12:19

Conti764 wrote:
23 Nov 2019, 12:31

Why would the EU decide against a commercial agreement between two private companies?
Because it would be illegal State aid.

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Transavia to fly from BRU with 2 Boeing 737s in Summer 2020

Post by jan_olieslagers » 24 Nov 2019, 12:38

"State" aid? It has been rightly pointed out that Brussels Airport is a private independent commercial operator. At least in theory ;)

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Yuqu12
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Re: Transavia to fly from BRU with 2 Boeing 737s in Summer 2020

Post by Yuqu12 » 24 Nov 2019, 12:42

With Brussels Airport still holding shares and the fact that one airline would receive benefits that other airlines don't receive, it's hard to deny that this wouldn't be State aid.

Ansett
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Re: Transavia to fly from BRU with 2 Boeing 737s in Summer 2020

Post by Ansett » 24 Nov 2019, 20:18

See my post under Austrian Airlines (24 NOV 20:16)

Ansett
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Re: Transavia to fly from BRU with 2 Boeing 737s in Summer 2020

Post by Ansett » 24 Nov 2019, 20:28

If/when there is a re-allocation of slots at AMS, it is not sure that KL will get additional slots. If they get additional slots, KL, imho, will use them for KL not for TV. Still imho, there is a market for TV at BRU. As some members rightly pointed out, they should look at unserved or underserved destinations. For instance, Faro. Underserved especially in winter.

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Conti764
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Re: BRU Summer 2020: news, new routes, airlines

Post by Conti764 » 24 Nov 2019, 21:08

Yuqu12 wrote:
24 Nov 2019, 12:19
Conti764 wrote:
23 Nov 2019, 12:31

Why would the EU decide against a commercial agreement between two private companies?
Because it would be illegal State aid.
BAC is a private company.

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Conti764
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Re: Transavia to fly from BRU with 2 Boeing 737s in Summer 2020

Post by Conti764 » 24 Nov 2019, 21:14

Yuqu12 wrote:
24 Nov 2019, 12:42
With Brussels Airport still holding shares and the fact that one airline would receive benefits that other airlines don't receive, it's hard to deny that this wouldn't be State aid.
Can you show us how a private company negociating terms with another private company is illegal state aid even when a state is a minority shareholder of one of those companies?

Ansett
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Re: Transavia to fly from BRU with 2 Boeing 737s in Summer 2020

Post by Ansett » 24 Nov 2019, 21:56

Absolutely right, Conti764.
In commercial relations, a supplier of goods or services is allowed to grant discounts to his best/largest clients. That is not State aid.
Imho, but I am not a lawyer, if BAC refuses to grant more favourable conditions to his best clients when these are negotiating with them, they could invoke an abuse of dominant position (certainly in the case of BAC).

Passenger
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Re: Transavia to fly from BRU with 2 Boeing 737s in Summer 2020

Post by Passenger » 24 Nov 2019, 22:32

Belgium owns 25% of Brussels Airport Company (BAC), so that makes Brussels Airport Company nv/sa a state-controlled entity with economical activities. Hence state aid rules apply.

BAC's legal status "onderneming van privaatrecht" (entreprise de droit privé) is irrelevant for European state aid matters. It only clarifies to business partners and clients which legislation applies, which courts rule, ...

Thus: relevant legislation is this "Notice on the notion of State aid as referred to in Article 107(1) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union":
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 19%2805%29

European Commissioner Vestager explains:
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commiss ... rldwide_en

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Atlantis
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Re: Transavia to fly from BRU with 2 Boeing 737s in Summer 2020

Post by Atlantis » 24 Nov 2019, 22:56

People/members are very easy in talking here in giving discounts.

Sorry but maybe this is the casy in your company. But if you don't have a clue how aviation works then it's better to not write anything.

As I wrote many times, IF there would be a decision in giving help/benefits or whatever then you have to do it for everybody.

There are severe, very severe regulations regarding this. And many external parties are having a look what airports are doing. That's why AMS had a few court cases against them

In the first place it is SN who has to do their homework. They have to make a order in everything to be healthy again. They have to negotiate with their mother company. If there will be a clear plan and a structure would be better. Now they are nowhere. You cannot put money in an emphy box, SN is also not asking for loans.

Regarding benefits/help. Everything is strictly regulated in this. The fees are known for a certain period of years. After that, there are new negotiations and this is communicated to the airlines.

So please stop in writing that you know everything the best, that this and this should be done bcs of.... No, rules will not be changed bcs some geeks have a great idea.
SN has to do what they have to do. They are under the umbrella of LH. Both companies has to work out a plan. LH will not let them go bankrupt bcs then LH would even have a bigger problem from the West and East side.

Maybe those are hard words but it's from time to time needed to let you understand how it works.

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Conti764
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Re: Transavia to fly from BRU with 2 Boeing 737s in Summer 2020

Post by Conti764 » 25 Nov 2019, 01:26

Passenger wrote:
24 Nov 2019, 22:32
Belgium owns 25% of Brussels Airport Company (BAC), so that makes Brussels Airport Company nv/sa a state-controlled entity with economical activities. Hence state aid rules apply.

BAC's legal status "onderneming van privaatrecht" (entreprise de droit privé) is irrelevant for European state aid matters. It only clarifies to business partners and clients which legislation applies, which courts rule, ...

Thus: relevant legislation is this "Notice on the notion of State aid as referred to in Article 107(1) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union":
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 19%2805%29

European Commissioner Vestager explains:
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/commiss ... rldwide_en
Thanks for the info.

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