Air Belgium in 2019

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TLspotting
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by TLspotting » 18 Jul 2019, 20:13

Air Belgium is going to operate 2 charter flights, on 19 July 2019, from Düsseldorf to Montréal and back !

KF4901 DUS - YUL 16:20 - 18:10 A343 OOABD 19/07/2019

KF4902 YUL - DUS 23:05 - 12:05+1 A343 OOABD 19/07/2019
I'm Thibault Lapers, spotter in Belgium for now 3 years, but not yet across the world and a huuuuuge aviation geek ! Join me on Facebook & Twitter @TLspotting

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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by TLspotting » 19 Jul 2019, 14:14

CEO says that AB is the only one who is allowed to talk about their plans and AB wasn't even contacted for the article on L'Echo.

So Kinshasa is false.
I'm Thibault Lapers, spotter in Belgium for now 3 years, but not yet across the world and a huuuuuge aviation geek ! Join me on Facebook & Twitter @TLspotting

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Passenger » 19 Jul 2019, 15:16

TLspotting wrote:
19 Jul 2019, 14:14
CEO says that AB is the only one who is allowed to talk about their plans and AB wasn't even contacted for the article on L'Echo.

So Kinshasa is false.
Source for the Kinshasa scoop in Le Soir was Renaud Witmeur. He is (apparently it will be soon: he was) executive chairman of Sogepa, a new co-owner of Air Belgium after the conversion of their loan (4M) into shares. Hence Renaud Witmeur, as co-owner, has some right of speech too.

Regarding Guadeloupe/Martinique: they don't only will have to sell the seats, but also the destination. Tourism to there is almost unknown in Belgium (no TUI, no Thomas Cook/Neckermann, no niche t/o's). On top, cruises in the Carribean is merely a travel distribution product, and Air Belgium has no sales team.

(French market? Me thinks that the French tourists will prefer a French airline out of Paris.)

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sn26567
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by sn26567 » 19 Jul 2019, 17:29

TLspotting wrote:
19 Jul 2019, 14:14
CEO says that AB is the only one who is allowed to talk about their plans and AB wasn't even contacted for the article on L'Echo.

So Kinshasa is false.
He did not say Kinshasa is false. He merely said that some press articles (not only L'Echo) were written without even checking with Air Belgium. Hence Kinshasa could be true, but authors should, please, contact Air Belgium to know the truth.
André
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TLspotting
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by TLspotting » 19 Jul 2019, 18:04

The answer from M. Boulart was :
TLspotting wrote:
18 Jul 2019, 09:31

"Air Belgium won't make any comment about this article. Info given are the only responibility of the source (SOGEPA), which is one of the shareholders like others."
They don't say it but if CH-Aviation writes that they deny their shareholder's comment, then we can wonder a lot what is true or what is false.

If it was true, AB would have said yes it is under project.

So for me he says "We don't eye RD Congo, if you had contacted us for the articles then you would know it is false."
I'm Thibault Lapers, spotter in Belgium for now 3 years, but not yet across the world and a huuuuuge aviation geek ! Join me on Facebook & Twitter @TLspotting

Poiu
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Poiu » 19 Jul 2019, 18:38

TLspotting wrote:
19 Jul 2019, 18:04

If it was true, AB would have said yes it is under project.

So for me he says "We don't eye RD Congo, if you had contacted us for the articles then you would know it is false."
Don’t jump to conclusions!

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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by jan_olieslagers » 19 Jul 2019, 19:55

I was thinking along the same line. Some facts can only be made public when the time is come.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Passenger » 19 Jul 2019, 22:18

TLspotting wrote:
19 Jul 2019, 14:14
"...the CEO says that AB is the only one who is allowed to talk about their plans and AB wasn't even contacted for the article on L'Echo..."

"...Air Belgium won't make any comment about this article. Info given are the only responsability of the source (SOGEPA), which is one of the shareholders like others..."
Well, this is a very strange communication by the CEO about a major investor like Sogepa: "you have to shut up". Wonder what happened during their last AGM (27th May)...

flightlover
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by flightlover » 20 Jul 2019, 00:13

Passenger wrote:
19 Jul 2019, 22:18
TLspotting wrote:
19 Jul 2019, 14:14
"...the CEO says that AB is the only one who is allowed to talk about their plans and AB wasn't even contacted for the article on L'Echo..."

"...Air Belgium won't make any comment about this article. Info given are the only responsability of the source (SOGEPA), which is one of the shareholders like others..."
Well, this is a very strange communication by the CEO about a major investor like Sogepa: "you have to shut up". Wonder what happened during their last AGM (27th May)...
They where, most likely, talking strategy and other stuff that is not supposed to be thrown on the streets. As they are no public trading company they should be able to do this without consequences, but once in a while...

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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by TLspotting » 20 Jul 2019, 11:28

I have to say that AB answers, I don't understand. It is not clear what's true or what's false, because I thought a lot of what you all have answered.
I'm Thibault Lapers, spotter in Belgium for now 3 years, but not yet across the world and a huuuuuge aviation geek ! Join me on Facebook & Twitter @TLspotting

Desert Rat
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Desert Rat » 20 Jul 2019, 18:24

TLspotting wrote:
20 Jul 2019, 11:28
I have to say that AB answers, I don't understand. It is not clear what's true or what's false, because I thought a lot of what you all have answered.
Well, you might not be their first priority in terms of answering questions, that make sense to me.
At the end of the day, their business is not yours, and they run the show the way they want.
Including some secrecy on their strategic target, whether you like it or not.....is not relevant.

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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by jan_olieslagers » 20 Jul 2019, 18:32

Totally agree, @Desert Rat! Actually I tried to say something similar a few replies earlier.

convair
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by convair » 21 Jul 2019, 17:32

Passenger wrote:
19 Jul 2019, 22:18
TLspotting wrote:
19 Jul 2019, 14:14
"...the CEO says that AB is the only one who is allowed to talk about their plans and AB wasn't even contacted for the article on L'Echo..."

"...Air Belgium won't make any comment about this article. Info given are the only responsability of the source (SOGEPA), which is one of the shareholders like others..."
Well, this is a very strange communication by the CEO about a major investor like Sogepa: "you have to shut up". Wonder what happened during their last AGM (27th May)...
When you become a shareholder, you have to adhere to certain rules, among others confidentiality. A shareholder is normally not entitled to speak for the company. Sogepa, like other government-owned/controlled companies is headed by political people who often cannot refrain from talking too much. Hence, "you have to shut up" from Terzakis is fully justified.
Besides, any view expressed here about future flights by AB to Kinshasa is pure speculation.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Passenger » 21 Jul 2019, 19:08

"Kinshasa" is not something that happened out of the blue. It was discussed during their last AGM – clear proof is the statement from shareholder Sogepa to L’Echo. Is the Board (Sogepa) allowed to reveal such scoop, or is it a privilege for Management? That’s not relevant. What matters, is that such a wild thing is accepted as a possible new route. "Kinshasa" should have been waived immediately: 1) we can’t get traffic rights, 2) we can’t rely on CRL-FIH-CRL pax only, so we need local represention. But we can't afford an own office there, so we need an expensive local GSA, 3) our competition offers French pax a flight CDG-BRU-CDG, but we can’t offer that, 4) Kinshasa is a difficult and expensive stay for crew…

I wonder on what basis they have choosen Guadeloupe/Martinique. Promotion-effort promises from the Tourism Board during a scouting trip? Seriously: it's not a fly-and-stay or a fly-and-drive destination, and there is no VFR traffic: the solid base for flights operated out of an offline airport. On top, 32% of the arrivals there is cruise travel. Hence a website and a Facebook page is far too little to get a market share there.

Am I really the only one here to doubt Guadeloupe/Martinique?

Poiu
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Poiu » 21 Jul 2019, 19:55

Passenger wrote:
21 Jul 2019, 19:08
What matters, is that such a wild thing is accepted as a possible new route. "Kinshasa" should have been waived immediately: 1) we can’t get traffic rights, 2) we can’t rely on CRL-FIH-CRL pax only, so we need local represention. But we can't afford an own office there, so we need an expensive local GSA, 3) our competition offers French pax a flight CDG-BRU-CDG, but we can’t offer that, 4) Kinshasa is a difficult and expensive stay for crew…
The biggest hurdle is that FIH is the flagship route of SN, that is why AB denies the plans.
Ask Sobelair and TUI what happened when they announced flights to the DRC a couple of years ago..
The SN lobbyists, almost certainly, have been called back from holidays to prevent AB operating a route between CRL and FIH.
The ex CDG pax will take the bus to CRL, many of them already take the bus from Brussels to CDG and fly back because tickets are cheaper from CDG.
Sell tickets 25€ cheaper from CRL than BRU, offer a generous baggage allowance and the flight will be successful!

convair
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by convair » 21 Jul 2019, 22:01

Passenger wrote:
21 Jul 2019, 19:08
"Kinshasa" is not something that happened out of the blue. It was discussed during their last AGM – clear proof is the statement from shareholder Sogepa to L’Echo. Is the Board (Sogepa) allowed to reveal such scoop, or is it a privilege for Management? That’s not relevant. What matters, is that such a wild thing is accepted as a possible new route. "Kinshasa" should have been waived immediately: 1) we can’t get traffic rights, 2) we can’t rely on CRL-FIH-CRL pax only, so we need local represention. But we can't afford an own office there, so we need an expensive local GSA, 3) our competition offers French pax a flight CDG-BRU-CDG, but we can’t offer that, 4) Kinshasa is a difficult and expensive stay for crew…

I wonder on what basis they have choosen Guadeloupe/Martinique. Promotion-effort promises from the Tourism Board during a scouting trip? Seriously: it's not a fly-and-stay or a fly-and-drive destination, and there is no VFR traffic: the solid base for flights operated out of an offline airport. On top, 32% of the arrivals there is cruise travel. Hence a website and a Facebook page is far too little to get a market share there.

Am I really the only one here to doubt Guadeloupe/Martinique?
I fully agree with you on the Kinshasa matter. Over the years, SN has build a strong customer base there and it's certainly not an easy nor cheap destination to maintain.

Very sceptical about Guad./Mart. as well, but let's give them a chance!
Poiu wrote:
21 Jul 2019, 19:55
Sell tickets 25€ cheaper from CRL than BRU, offer a generous baggage allowance and the flight will be successful!
They already have a more than generous bagage allowance and SN can make their tickets a bit cheaper for a while if needed in order to undermine AB's efforts. And what about the US and other connecting pax? What about traffic rights? If confirmed, It's sad to see them even considering such a silly idea.

PttU
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by PttU » 21 Jul 2019, 23:36

What about cargo? I don't know whether FIH is a route where a lot of cargo goes along too, bringing some revenue for SN? If a route isn't profitable with pax alone, a nice cargo deal might tip the balance?

flightlover
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by flightlover » 22 Jul 2019, 00:09

PttU wrote:
21 Jul 2019, 23:36
What about cargo? I don't know whether FIH is a route where a lot of cargo goes along too, bringing some revenue for SN? If a route isn't profitable with pax alone, a nice cargo deal might tip the balance?
Did they create cargo capacities in CRL? (handling and whs)

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Passenger » 22 Jul 2019, 09:51

Desert Rat wrote:
20 Jul 2019, 18:24
TLspotting wrote:
20 Jul 2019, 11:28
I have to say that AB answers, I don't understand. It is not clear what's true or what's false, because I thought a lot of what you all have answered.
At the end of the day, their business is not yours, and they run the show the way they want. Including some secrecy on their strategic target, whether you like it or not.....is not relevant.
A few million of Belgian taxpayers' money has been invested by Sogepa, SRIW, SFPI and Sparaxis. Plus indirect support by Sowaer - on such level that it will probably never gain a normal return-on-investment. Secrecy about their business strategy is necessary, for sure. But that's no wildcard to remain silent on what they do with that taxpayers' money.

Bracebrace
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Bracebrace » 22 Jul 2019, 10:40

Passenger wrote:
21 Jul 2019, 19:08
1) we can’t get traffic rights
The "we can't" is the exact reason why - IF there are talks - complete confidentiality is necessary. International politics and lobbying is involved.

And clarification about "taxpayers" money is only required in due time, which is hypocrit anyway. It is not "our" money anymore, it is the governments money. That is an AB vs Sogepa discussion, not AB vs taxpayer. If there is profit, the money is returned to the government who gets to spend it in the same unefficient way as it has always done. At least the government invests in aviation - a dying business in Belgium partly because of that same politics attitude.

All considered this "scoop" looked more like a political game to either get media attention for all the bad reasons, or put AB under pressure for all the bad reasons.

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