Strikes affecting Belgian airports in 2014-2015

[Stij]

Airazurxtror,

Please stick to playing the ball and not the person...

In my opinion it was clear all Belgian airports would be closed on Monday as from Friday. If it was clear for me and all the other airliners, why not for FR?

Cheers,

Stij

[jan_olieslagers]

corporate servers often have time buffers in weekends, so mailings send out may not reach their destination before mondays

As a professional IT'er, always working in big organisations, I must say such a mechanism could probably be implemented but I never saw one. Could you name some examples of companies/organisations that have such an e-mail delay mechanism in place?

OTOH it must be said that, e-mail being a non-transactional medium, there cannot be a fixed delivery time or delay, and no able IT manager is going to engage in an SLA on mail delivery delays. Even if 99% of e-mail arrives within seconds, or minutes at most, that depends on the capacity and charge of the various mail relays, and the number involved.

[Acid-drop]

I'm also in IT and this email story is a pure joke.

[convair]

Yesterday SN 1255 was diverted from its first stop DKR to Conakry, then Freetown before finally heading to DKR.
Since Belgian airspace was closed today, it apparently stayed overnight in DKR.
Given the fact that Senegal has closed its borders to pax from the "Ebola" countries, I wonder where the pax spent the night. Were they allowed to disembark and get to a hotel?
Does someone here have the answer?

[SFM]

Given the fact that Senegal has closed its borders to pax from the "Ebola" countries,

Senegal re-opened its borders last month.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/ ... IM20141114

[sean1982]

I'm also in IT and this email story is a pure joke.

So 2 IT'ers are calling your story bull inquirer. Could it possibly be pure FR bashing?

[Stij]

Hi Sean,

Again, play the ball, not the person!

What's your opinion on these events?

FR noticed their pax a day later than the others.
Check-in appeared to be still open on sunday for a flight on monday.

Cheers,

Stij

[Passenger]

I'm also in IT and this email story is a pure joke.

So 2 IT'ers are calling your story bull inquirer. Could it possibly be pure FR bashing?

It's nice to see so much people focussing here on a sidenote from "Inquirer" - an IT story about forwarding emails, yes or no. But it's no answer to another question that many have posted here: why did Ryanair still accept bookings on Friday afternoon and Saturday morning, whilst all other carriers had closed all their Monday flights in their CRS because it was certain as from Friday 14h/15h that there was going to be a full strike?

Example of such an un-answered question:

Good questions indeed. All I know is they clearly stay low profile in the run up to this strike and towards their already booked customers they take an attitude of "not to know for sure yet" and "to be trying" which I find weird as the others were already announcing the full cancelation of their flights for the day, but as Stij said, it may be a matter of not willing to blink first as that one has to take the financial hit of the rebooking.

Fwiw- note the wording in the announcement dated today (linked to above); it shows exactly the attitude.

Ryanair has been advised of a National Strike in Belgium on Monday 15th December 2014.

We are not yet certain of the level of disruption expected, however if the strike action goes ahead there is likely to be cancellations and delays to flights to/from Belgium.

In the event that we are forced to cancel flights due to this strike action, we will update this notice on Saturday 13 December at 09.00 GMT.
We sincerely apologise for any inconvenience caused by this situation which is outside of our control.

Btw- there's something weird with the dates there too?

[Inquirer]

I'm also in IT and this email story is a pure joke.

So 2 IT'ers are calling your story bull inquirer. Could it possibly be pure FR bashing?

Well, this is not ment as an insult towards those 2 gentlemen in paricular, but IT'ers saying a reported IT problem just isn't possible is not really much of a reference in itself, is it?

FYI- the mail which your employer sent out on Saturday morning got quarantined for some reason (maybe our resident IT'ers can explain just how those quarantine systems work?), so a system generated message (asking for the mail's unsecured delivery or full removal) was sent out on Sunday night by our mail system.

But as others have noted, that in itself is not the story I found interesting to share here; the factuality is very much that the reluctance to contact corporate passengers asao on Friday afternoon and to wait till well after the last working hours of the week (in fact, even a Saturday morning) means a world of a difference to people ment to travel for business meetings on a Monday morning, of course.

Mind you, that's no bashing whatsoever, yet it seems that you taking offence at me pointing out this professional shortcoming nevertheless, underscoring here may be a lack of good understanding inside your organisation of the particular needs of corporate travellers and the additional problems such a casual attitude creates for their organisation.

For somebody going to visit his relatives abroad it probably doesnt matter much whether you cancel Friday afternoon or Saturday morning, but for people who have business meetings scheduled it does as there's no way they can reschedule those over weekend and so the offered option to rebook the flight is pretty much useless to them over the (long) weekend, which ironically means they'll come last when in fact they should come first to rebook their flights!

Given strikes have a tendency to be planned as 'long weekends' in Belgium and it doesn't seem like this particular action day will be the last one yet, maybe my constructive comment is to be taken a bit more seriously than you seem to be doing???
However, so far, it was a fairly disappointing reaction by you, I must say. I hope this was just your personal attitude, and not your professional attitude demonstrated here.
People can also just shut up about the shortcoming they find, decide your airline is nothing for them after all despite all the PR talk and take their business elsewhere, you know?
BTW- this is exactly what happened in this case, as our travel agency simply booked a new last minute ticket on the flight we got rescheduled on too and in fact our procurement manager is contemplating to include external consultants traveling on projects for us in the travel ban too now.

[b-west]

Well, here's my story about another LCC affected by the strike.

I was supposed to return from LGW to BRU with Easyjet on Monday. EZY did inform me of the cancellation of my flight on Friday, via mail, a warning in their app and ultimately a text message on Saturday, stating that I had the choice to rebook or ask for a refund.

They did however fail to mention that I was entitled to accommodation, as the flight was cancelled and I was left stranded in London. When calling them about this matter, I ended up somewhere in India, where the call center was blissfully unaware of EU regulations and thought I wanted to book a hotel room myself. After explaining the case a couple of times, they told me to get "a medium sized" room, and EZY would refund me for that.

I found that hard to believe, so upon arrival on Saturday headed towards the EZY info desk in LGW. There they told me I should come back on the day of my flight to get accommodation, as they "were not aware the flight was cancelled". Me showing them the text and e-mail coming directly from Easyjet apparently didn't count for anything.

Conclusion here is that, though EZY did inform me on time about the strike and rebooking options, they make it as hard as possible for passengers to claim their rights, no doubt hoping that many wouldn't bother asking for them.

[Inquirer]

Thank you for this.
It really seems to be a pattern with low cost airlines that they make it as hard as possible for individual customers to claim their rights when things risk going wrong, notably by complicating their own procedures to the absurd and in this particular case it seems they like to keep everybody in the dark for as long as possible as to the exact status of their flights on Monday, hoping IMHO that as many passengers as possible will be scared off by this deliberately protracted uncertainty and will decide themselves to rebook in the mean time (and thus take the additional costs for this decision then).
Very enlightening discussion, this is indeed.

[b-west]

Btw, I know that airlines aren't obliged to tell you you have the right to accommodation, and very few would actually do. I spoke to a rather upset French couple on Friday who saw their planned romantic weekend to London cancelled due to the London airspace closure and their SN flight being cancelled. Though they were re-booked to the next day, the airline also failed to mention their right to accommodation to them. You really have to know as a passenger what your rights are and explicitly ask for them. Frequent flyers might be more aware of these, but most people don't have a clue.

Actually, everybody traveling within the EU should have this webpage saved on their phone or tablet: http://ec.europa.eu/transport/passenger ... index.html

[sn26567]

Are you sure that you have the right to accommodation in case of a strike? Isn't that considered as "force majeure"?

[b-west]

Not when the strike has been announced beforehand.

Come to think of it, that French couple probably ran into "the hand of god" or "force majeure", though there were other flights to LON operated later that day.

[Stij]

I think you're not... according to page 6, point 28 of this pdf...

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/pa ... s-list.pdf

Cheers,

Stij

[b-west]

I think you're not... according to page 6, point 28 of this pdf...

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/themes/pa ... s-list.pdf

Cheers,

Stij

I think it depends if it's a wildcat strike or not. After all, the EZY desk at LGW confirmed that I was entitled to accommodation. Also, first page of the document you posted:

The content of this document has not been adopted or in any way approved by the European Commission and should not be relied upon as a statement of the European Commission's position.

[Stij]

I know, it's still the nations that decide apparently...

Cheers,

Stij

[Passenger]

Before the European elections (May 2014), the European Commission (EC) and the European Parliament (EP) disagreed about the way 261/2004 should be reviewed. That became necessary indeed because some low cost carriers use “extraordinary circumstances” for about every single cancellation or delay. EU-Commission and EU-Parliament agreed to disagree, so changes to 261/2004 were postponed beyond May 2014. Let’s hope the new EP (2014-2019) is more realistic then the old one (2009-1014). The previous MEP’s wanted to exclude every single technical incident from “extraordinary circumstances”, whilst the EC stated that a bona fide airline with a clean sheet for safety and maintenance cannot help it when an engine or the airco fails.

Luchtzak members with +10 years of experience will remember how airlines used to overbook every flight by the average of their no-shows. And for sure, 261/2004 has solved that very unpleasant habit. But nowadays, 261/2004 is a revenue source for incasso firms. Luckily for the aviation and travel industry, all National Enforcement Bodies (NEB) have common sense and they work with an excellent (but non official) guideline.

Some general principles, regarding strikes:

A strike is never a reason for the compensation (150€-600€): see remark (14) from 261/2004: “… (14) As under the Montreal Convention, obligations on operating air carriers should be limited or excluded in cases where an event has been caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken. Such circumstances may, in particular, occur in cases of political instability, meteorological conditions incompatible with the operation of the flight concerned, security risks, unexpected flight safety shortcomings and strikes that affect the operation of an operating air carrier…”

Today's problem is that “…obligations on operating air carriers should be limited or excluded…” is not explained in the Rule. Repeat: history proofs that some airlines use “excluded” for every single incident and never accept a “limited” responsibility.

Common sense is that a strike by own personnel or a strike from private suppliers limits the obligations: free rebooking (if possible on other carriers), meals and drinks, telephone call, accommodation if necessary, taxi transfers.

Common sense is that a strike by an official service (ATC, fire brigade, customs police) excludes financial obligations. Airlines have to assist (= help) the passengers, example by rebooking them on own flights, but then it ends. No meals, no accommodation must be offered. Some full service carriers offer meals and even accommodation when pax are stranded by an ATC strike. Not because they have to, but because the hope that the passenger will remember this gesture for next bookings.

A wildcat strike (own staff or public service) is always force majeure/overmacht/hand of god: the principle in labour courts indeed is that it’s unavoidable, at least when it’s a sudden strike that started immediately after an event (example: strike after a fatal accident by a handling agent)

- -

So far for the common sense… Now the bad news for airlines: because “limited of excluded” is not explained in the actual 261/2004, the EU Court of Justice ruled for one particular case that 261/2004 is client-protection-legislation, and that the airline must pay the hotel costs from passengers stranded in a foreign country, although it was an ATC decision.

Same applies for the "door open" verdict in a regional court: a British judge ruled that passengers must get the benefit of the doubt: arrival time is when the doors are open, not when the aircraft landed.

[sn26567]

TAP staff had planned to strike during the busy holiday season from Dec. 27-30 to protest the government’s privatization plans for the carrier. But the Portuguese Council of Ministers announced it was instituting a “civil requisition,” which enables it to legally summon employees to work to ensure minimum services are upheld “in the national interest.” It is still unknown which flights will be operated. TAP stopped taking bookings for the affected dates since they were announced Dec. 11.

Some 460 UK employees of Dubai-based ground handler dnata plan to strike for 48 hours from 0400 local time on Dec. 23 at three UK airports: London Heathrow, London Gatwick and Manchester. It is still unknown what effect this will have on flights from these airports.

[sn26567]

The cabin crew of 5 bases of easyJet in France will be on strike on 25 and 26 December. Merry Christmas!

Flights from Lyon, Nice and Toulouse to Brussels might be affected.