Which A330 next for Brussels Airlines?

[Air Key West]

Hopefully somebody will wake up and smell the coffee.

Forgive my sarcastic comment : for lack of money they probably don't serve coffee anymore at management or Board meetings (otherwise they would smell the coffee,wouldn't they ?)

[Flanker2]

Now that Korongo is getting more B737's, it's time to start using Korongo as a regional feeder in DRC and neighboring countries and to connect BRU to FBM. Stop wasting resources opening routes to North America and just get this done! That's an extra A330 right there.

What is saddest is that all these alleged anti-SN people on this forum have to remind several pro-SN people what needs to be done for their airline, while several pro-SN people continue to defend their management's ridiculously conservative choices that is running the airline down.

It's not simple to run a cash-strapped airline nowadays. But let's be honest with ourselves, SN's management is doing an OK job, but not an exceptionally good job which is what they expect from the other employees in the airline. So I hope that they stop feeling sorry for themselves, man up and show what they're made of.

10 millions should cover the opening of the BRU-FBM route. Jump the hurdles and just do it.

[sean1982]

just to be clear, I'm not nor will I ever be anti-SN, I'm not anti-anything in fact.

[Flanker2]

Alleged anti-SN... nuance.

[Inquirer]

Now that Korongo is getting more B737's,

They are? When? How many?
Is this somewhere confirmed yet?

it's time to (...) connect BRU to FBM. That's an extra A330 right there.

FBM is Lumumbashi, I suppose?
I thought the recently concluded agreement between Congo and our country allowes a total of just 9 flights per week between the 2 countries, of which 2 are more or less unused at present, so even if they have the intention to get permission to go to Lumumbashi, it's just going to be 2 days a week then and that is on condition they are allowed to go there even by all authorities, so IMHO, that's definitely not going to keep a plane bussy right away as I suppose a longhaul plane need to fly more than just 2 days a week to be profitable?

[RoMax]

Now that Korongo is getting more B737's,

They are? When? How many?
Is this somewhere confirmed yet?

The CEO of Korongo said they are looking at adding two 737's (previously one 737 and a 50-seater turboprop was said), but at that moment they were still looking for the money.

I thought the recently concluded agreement between Congo and our country allowes a total of just 9 flights per week between the 2 countries, of which 2 are more or less unused at present, so even if they have the intention to get permission to go to Lumumbashi, it's just going to be 2 days a week then and that is on condition they are allowed to go there even by all authorities, so IMHO, that's definitely not going to keep a plane bussy right away as I suppose a longhaul plane need to fly more than just 2 days a week to be profitable?

7 of them are granted to one or more Belgian airline(s), SN has all 7 of them. The two other are actually for a Congolese carrier. Previously a Belgian carrier could have a max of 5 flights per week and a Congolese 2, so SN leased the two other rights from the virtually non-existing airline LAC (which the DRC wants to replace now). So to be able to operate more than the current daily flight to FIH, they would have to lease the traffic rights again from a Congolese airline.

[Inquirer]

]
7 of them are granted to one or more Belgian airline(s), SN has all 7 of them. The two other are actually for a Congolese carrier. Previously a Belgian carrier could have a max of 5 flights per week and a Congolese 2, so SN leased the two other rights from the virtually non-existing airline LAC (which the DRC wants to replace now). So to be able to operate more than the current daily flight to FIH, they would have to lease the traffic rights again from a Congolese airline.

So at best, they can go 2 times a week to another airport in the Congo, on condition they get an agreement with the Congolese airline to use their rights then, unless they give up some of their frequencies to Kinshasa, which I do not suppose they'll be willing to do? Is this more or less correct?

IMHO the idea to make Lumumbashi a meaninful regional hub is thus legally as good as impossible.
I may be wrong, but could it be that much of the expansion in Africa is just not possible due to such legal constraints?

One should remember there's no free trade between Europe and many of the African nations, so everything needs to be negociated between governments first, and then we are just a tiny little country, often with an attitude of telling those countries they should strictly follow international rules, support democracy and respect human rights, things which probably aren't the most popular of topics on their agenda?

[Flanker2]

Who said it has to be spread 7-2?
SN can spread the frequencies as they wish, 7-2, 6-3, 5-4 depending on how FBM is doing.

In fact, they can also go 7-7 by working with tag-ons, but I doubt that would be necessary from the beginning.
6-3 would be a great way to start FBM, and they can add tag-on flights when they see that the traffic is increasing. They can then also sell flights on FIH-FBM sectors through Korongo.

[sean1982]

The problem is that African countries are starting to understand that there is money to be made with aviation, so are becoming more and more protectionist of their traffic rights. This is why congo wants to restart LAC. If you look across the border at the other congo and ECAIR building up a succesfull operation out of BZV or look at ethiopian, then this is no surprise.

[Inquirer]

Who said it has to be spread 7-2?
SN can spread the frequencies as they wish, 7-2, 6-3, 5-4 depending on how FBM is doing.

In fact, they can also go 7-7 by working with tag-ons, but I doubt that would be necessary from the beginning.
6-3 would be a great way to start FBM, and they can add tag-on flights when they see that the traffic is increasing. They can then also sell flights on FIH-FBM sectors through Korongo.

9 in total can probably be split 7-2, or 6-3, or 5-4, or whatever, but I doubt it can be split 7-7 like you say?

Besides, when we talk about 9 frequencies, that's assuming they get to use 2 rights which aren't theirs!

Since Congo is willing to set up its own airline again, I suppose they will want to use those rights for it, won't they, so it is my understanding those rights aren't going to be available much longer?

As Sean points out, African countries are getting more protectionistic with granting access to foreign airlines onto their markets, or at least they do expect something in return for that access from the governments from those countries they grant more access to their markets, and it may be the biggest hurdle to any additional frequencies.

In this context, it might be interesting to get an idea of how many unused frequencies they still have on the destinations they currently serve? Looking at the difficulties faced with Congo, the way they need to proceed for a second flight to Angola, or in fact their public begging for more access to Senegal or Cameroon recently, they may be pretty maxed out already on the most lucrative markets, which shouldn't surprise even, as it's just the airline from a very small country, playing much above its natural weight in Africa?

[FLYAIR10]

6-3 would be a great way to start FBM, and they can add tag-on flights when they see that the traffic is increasing. They can then also sell flights on FIH-FBM sectors through Korongo.

Question: is FBM airport able to accept A330's these days? or would it require still a major investment in infrastructure,equipment (by SN) before operations could possibly start?
Grtz

[tolipanebas]

is FBM airport able to accept A330's these days? or would it require still a major investment in infrastructure,equipment (by SN) before operations could possibly start?
Grtz

No, the airport is not approved for that by the BCAA as it is below almost all possible safety and security standards to allow commercial longhaul operations to Belgium.

[Air Key West]

Quite a number of us of been "accused" of "Brazil Dreaming". I see a lot of unrealistic "Lubumbashi Dreaming".

[Flanker2]

Quite a number of us of been "accused" of "Brazil Dreaming". I see a lot of unrealistic "Lubumbashi Dreaming".

Yah well, the only thing that you don't need to worry about is any of them coming true.

No, the airport is not approved for that by the BCAA as it is below almost all possible safety and security standards to allow commercial longhaul operations to Belgium.

Isn't SN's reputation in Africa based on their ability to operate in complex environments? Isn't that where the money is to be made? Isn't that why they can afford to charge a premium?
If small problems like a bit of runway work and a few second hand fire trucks scare them off, what does it really take to be an "Africa Specialist" these days? Initiative and willingness to bribe their way through? Anyone can do that and more and more airlines are discovering that. Just ask TK.

[convair]

No, the airport is not approved for that by the BCAA as it is below almost all possible safety and security standards to allow commercial longhaul operations to Belgium.

It was upgraded by SN to allow their B737 flights. I understand accommodating a B737 or an A330 is not exactly the same thing, but is there such a big difference in terms of infrastructure?

[Bralo20]

It was upgraded by SN to allow their B737 flights. I understand accommodating a B737 or an A330 is not exactly the same thing, but is there such a big difference in terms of infrastructure?

There's indeed a difference between the 737 and A330. The 737 may operate in airports with Fire & Rescue available according to ICAO CAT 6 (FAA CAT B), for the A330-200 it's CAT 8 (FAA CAT E) and for the -300 it's CAT 9 (FAA CAT E).

I can't find the information online but I think FBM is only a CAT 6 airport for Fire & Rescue. So to be able to operate the A330 the fire & rescue staff/equipment needs to be upgraded and this can be quite expensive.

[convair]

Thank you Bralo20.

[Duke]

Can we stay on topic please?
This topic is about which exact aircraft (if ever..) will join the Brussels Airlines fleet, not about the need for Brussels Airlines to expand or not, or where this should happen.
Thx,

Duke

[HighInTheSky]

SN technicians went to Sao Paolo to check on a next A330, but management/board took too much time when they were back to make a decision. Those aircrafts are sold by now...

The next A330 will be decided on the board meeting of begin December

[pigthebest]

According to Skyliner-aviation.de:
Airbus A330 -223 946 5N- Arik Air ferried 17dec13 MLA-CHR, D-reg for paint ex D-ANJB

She was in Malta for LH Technik. Now she's for Arik Air and not SN. 2 A332 remaining in LH Technik group to ...???