BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

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regi
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by regi »

Flanker wrote: Also of interest is that Flybe is selling 9 of their Q400's this year, of which 3 have been placed with SA.
So if Flybe, as the largest Q400 user, is replacing their TP by jets, why should SN take over those airplanes from Flybe and downgrade its capacity?
By the way: introducing airplanes means a cost: leasing or buying. SN is not in the financial position to say " get me those birds, here you have a cheque"
The days of purchasing an entire brand new fleet to replace older aircraft is over in Brussels. Sabena, remember? :(

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sn26567
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by sn26567 »

regi wrote:The days of purchasing an entire brand new fleet to replace older aircraft is over in Brussels. Sabena, remember? :(
Most Sabena aircraft were leased (with complicated contracts involving offshore financial companies), but not purchased!
André
ex Sabena #26567

regi
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by regi »

sn26567 wrote:
regi wrote:The days of purchasing an entire brand new fleet to replace older aircraft is over in Brussels. Sabena, remember? :(
Most Sabena aircraft were leased (with complicated contracts involving offshore financial companies), but not purchased!
I refer to the Airbus deal at the end of Sabena.

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sn26567
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by sn26567 »

regi wrote:I refer to the Airbus deal at the end of Sabena.
They were also leased.

But leasing too many unnecessary aeroplanes also is too heavy a financial burden.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Flanker
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Flanker »

So if Flybe, as the largest Q400 user, is replacing their TP by jets, why should SN take over those airplanes from Flybe and downgrade its capacity?
SN needs to do now what Flybe started doing 10 years ago.
That is to re-build the regional part of its short-haul strategy from the ground up and become profitable, all while adding long-haul aircraft and increasing demand for feeding.

Once SN's TP fleet achieves 90% load factors and the long-haul fleet grows to about 15 aircraft, then we can talk about replacing the TP's by larger jets, through merged frequencies.

As much as Flybe has been successful with its TP strategy in the past, I doubt that their future strategy would enhance their profitability.
Operating a large fleet of turboprops is ideal for a network carrier's regional fleet operating under a mainline and long-haul fleet, but it's a huge handicap for an airline like Flybe for whom it's the only source of revenue.
So Flybe's strategy is to go larger and to enhance the revenues and profitability while exposing itself to more risk. They did that successfully in a first stage by replacing Q400's by E195's on the routes that they were able to grow successfully thanks to the Q400.
I however doubt that their E170 strategy on mainland Europe would take them anywhere. At current fuel prices, the E170 is not sustainable to operate, especially at typically lower load factors on regional routes.

If done right, there would be no capacity downgrade, quite to the opposite.
SN's current short and mid-haul fleet has a low utilization rate. Throughout the day you see many aircraft parked on the tarmac or in the hangar.
This means that if 26 RJ's are replaced on a 1:1 basis with Q400's, the Q400's can achieve a higher utilization and operate more frequencies. This would lead to additional, better spread capacity.
As I've said repeatedly, the more you spread your capacity (more schedule options and regional destinations), the more revenue and profit potential you have.
By the way: introducing airplanes means a cost: leasing or buying. SN is not in the financial position to say " get me those birds, here you have a cheque"
If negotiated well with BBD/ATR and financial institutions, SN may achieve to get new TP's at around half the price of A320 leases. It's still a lot more than what they pay for the RJ's.
At current fuel prices, the money they save on fuel easily covers the higher lease and additionally save no less than several millions per aircraft per year.

Roughly, at 250 hours per month,
fuel+lease RJ85 = 2 x fuel+lease Q400NG or
fuel+lease Q400NG = 50% x fuel+lease RJ85

Maintenance on new aircraft would in first instance cost next to nothing because of warranty (typically first 3 years) and there would be a permanent difference because of lower maintenance and replacement cost of turboprop engines. Turboprop engines are easier and cheaper to maintain.
Lower cruise speeds and lower pressure delta due to the lower cruise altitudes puts less strain on fuselage and pressurisation related systems, requiring less inspections and repairs.

This will save SN millions on maintenance bills and enable it to shift more maintenance resources to work on additional A330's.

Passenger
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Passenger »

Flanker wrote:
If negotiated well with BBD/ATR and financial institutions, SN may achieve to get new TP's at around half the price of A320 leases. It's still a lot more than what they pay for the RJ's. At current fuel prices, the money they save on fuel easily covers the higher lease and additionally save no less than several millions per aircraft per year.

Roughly, at 250 hours per month,
fuel+lease RJ85 = 2 x fuel+lease Q400NG or
fuel+lease Q400NG = 50% x fuel+lease RJ85
It's clear that you have no idea at all what Brussels Airlines is paying for their leased RJ's. Let me give you a hint: its not even 25% of what you think it is.

But anyway, keep on posting. I'm learning a lot from the replies from others luchtzak-members.

Kapitein
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Kapitein »

Everybody,
keep it polite and reasonable in the topic. I don't mind that you give your opinion in this topic and that everybody has a other opinion is normal. But keep it polite against eachother. Some persons are already warned and posts are removed.

If not this will be closed and it would be a shame in this interesting topic,

Thanks,

Brubiac

Flanker
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Flanker »

I think that the comment that I responded to is disrespectful by all means and that there's an imbalance in tolerance levels.
If anyone can just come in and write things like that out of nowhere, then there's no way of having a civilized conversation.

Take people like Cathay. He has no aviation background, and yet he manages to write whatever he wants in a very bad English and get away with it. Laughable at best.

What makes a forum like this interesting and attract 10.000 views is an expert view.
Tell me, where do you get this level of refined quality and expertise just for free, just like that? I think that if there's anything to delete, it's the worthless counter-arguments and bashing comments of many other members on this site.

I'd much rather work in the form of Q&A's except for exchanges with professionals like Tolipanebas who can make their own point. I think that that would be a way to have a serious and professional and enjoyable conversation.

By the way, I think that the suspension warning is way out of line here.

andorra-airport
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by andorra-airport »

Flanker wrote: If anyone can just come in and write things like that out of nowhere, then there's no way of having a civilized conversation.
Welcome to Luchtzak, a forum for everybody, expert or not.
Flanker wrote: Take people like Cathay. He has no aviation background, and yet he manages to write whatever he wants in a very bad English and get away with it. Laughable at best.
You do like humilating people do you? You are pathatic!
Flanker wrote: What makes a forum like this interesting and attract 10.000 views is an expert view.
Ahhhh we all bow for you big leader, the one who knows all !!! (sorry I have to vomit now)

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Airbus330lover
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Airbus330lover »

NCB/flanker.... is the only one who knows everything :lol:

He's THE expert (remember BE ON TOP airways!)

azingrew
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by azingrew »

What makes a forum like this interesting and attract 10.000 views is an expert view.
For sure and I can't wait to see one!

Oh and by the way, Autolux is going to replace all the Mercedes taxis at the airport with Dacia Logan:
you get 3 for the price of one, much better mileage on a full tank, still 4 seats, you can have them in black and who cares about the passenger's opinion anyway.

Somebody suggested "BeOnTop" and Flanker to be the same person. I don't think so. Remember Beontop could hardly express himself in english as opposed to Flanker who professes his absurdities in very good english.

sn-remember
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by sn-remember »

OK I'll add my humble thoughts on this interesting topic ... :)
Of course it's a question each aviation fan has pondered since childhood LOL!
Personally I am not a fan of the Q400.
Too many landing gear incidents and such.
When I flew the ATR for the 1st time long time ago, I was surprised by the confort yes ! I was expecting something similar to the F50 and it was ways more confy! (Ok just my opinion the on the question of confort which was raised by some poster)

For numerous reasons that have been developed here and there, the ATR72 can only be deployed (semi) marginally by SN.
But to me it definitely has a place on regional routes.
It could be very effectively used on a whole set of routes (new or not) including SXB,MLH,STR,BRS,EMA,NCL,BHD,ORK(?),JER/GCI,STN(?),NTE,BOD,MPL,BVA,POZ,GDN,DRS(?),DUS,NUE,AMS,
LUX, etc.. and of course LCY (why not)
I know some of these routes will unfortunately not be implemented soon, it's just a matter for thought ..
ORY could justify a bigger frame for l/h feeding purposes, maybe STN also ?
As a general rule, I would consider the ATR72 a very effective choice on not too distant, thin routes. Importantly to me, it allows for the opening of new s/h routes which is paramount for the development of an airline such as SN.
Just my thoughts ...

Flanker
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Flanker »

While we wait for the announcements to be announced and to blast a new life into this dead topic, I'll present a concept I've been producing in the last few days.

Aircraft are literally "sleeping" at night on the tarmac when they could be flying and making money.
This is why I produced the idea of a charter concept using the turboprops, mimicking what the neighbors are doing at JAF, Thomas Cook and merging them with the Ryanair regional subsidies model.
There are many regions in the Mediterranean that strongly rely on airlines to bring their highly needed tourists and many pay Ryanair to do that.

Background information
Ryanair receives direct subsidies going from 5€ to over 80€ per passenger depending on the destination it operates. Often, the subsidies are received at both ends of the sector, which explains how they can afford to sell tickets at 1€.
I'm going to use the available hard data from an airport in Italy. The following information was leaked.
This was a destination previously operated by Ryanair from CRL but was cut back together with Beauvais, and other destinations in 2010, after the region declined to support more routes.
In 2004, Ryanair had carried 400.000 passengers to and from this airport and received 2.44 million euro's of subsidies in exchange, equal to 6€ per arriving/departing passenger.
Ryanair also received almost-free ground services as it paid only 130€ per B737 rotation. The actual handling was charged only 50€ per rotation. Typical costs are 700%-1000% higher.

Aircraft
Many people have expressed their feelings about operating turboprops on longer sectors. However, I think that if the price is right, the leisure customer will bite. Come on, I'd rather listen to the humming sound of a turboprop than the disturbing high voices of the Ryanair cabin crew whom just never stop.

This being settled, let's look at range. The ATR72 and the Q400 both have good range. The ATR72 is slower but burns less fuel. The Q400 can almost match the ATR72's fuel burn by flying at lower speeds and has the flexibility to fly faster when it's running late.

Operating schedules
Here's where JAF and Thomas Cook must be the example. They aren't afraid to operate red-eyes and night schedules and boy are they flying full.
Ideally the schedule would be a 22:00-01:00/01:30-04:30 rotation wherein passengers can sleep during the night flight and arrive in BRU just as public transportation kicks in. This gives the possibility to feed at BRU on both legs. At destination airports, public transportation is usually scarce, so people must rely on taxi's (tourists) or friends and family (VFR).

The concept
I think that you get the point by now.
I think that SN has an opportunity to make profit by operating turboprop aircraft at higher utilization rates as red eyes (night flights), affordable fares to regional destinations in the Mediterranean (Spain, France, Corsica, Sardinia, Sicily, Southern Italy, Croatia) that are willing to pay to have a connection with a network carrier.

The aircraft would be back before the morning outbound wave to Europe.
Some of the current night stop destinations could also be used to operate direct flights from there during the night instead of parking the plane and the crew.

FYI, SN is already operating charters for Thomas Cook during the summer season using RJ85's.

Any constructive thoughts are welcome.

Yuri166
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Yuri166 »

You do know aircraft are normally maintained at night right? Just a minor detail.

airazurxtror
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by airazurxtror »

Flanker wrote: Ryanair receives direct subsidies going from 5€ to over 80€ per passenger depending on the destination it operates. Often, the subsidies are received at both ends of the sector, which explains how they can afford to sell tickets at 1€.
Ryanair doesn't sell 1 euro tickets since at least one year, perhaps two.
The cheapest ones are in the region of 8-10 euros at present.
You should update your informations, Mr Know-it-all. If they all are as valid as this one ....

You also wrote, a bit earlier :
Take people like Cathay. He has no aviation background, and yet he manages to write whatever he wants in a very bad English and get away with it. Laughable at best.

Thus, you are not only a first-class expert but also a gentleman !

BrusselsAirlines
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by BrusselsAirlines »

After 7 pages of usefull and less usefull information we are still waiting for REAL news.

When will this start up take place, by whom, which aircraft, how many and to which destinations???


Factual answers are preferred :D

jan_olieslagers
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Factual answers are preferred
That might be considered an ungentlemanlike request, I am afraid.
Last edited by jan_olieslagers on 03 Aug 2011, 17:58, edited 1 time in total.

brusselsairlinesfan
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by brusselsairlinesfan »

Dear All,
Simple question : will there ever be any declaration on fleet renewal... I mean before LH full takeover?
And isn't the fleet renewall already in progress with the arrival of A319s & A320s? Maybe that's just simply it...

Flanker
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by Flanker »

Ryanair doesn't sell 1 euro tickets since at least one year, perhaps two.
The cheapest ones are in the region of 8-10 euros at present.
Anyway, 1 euro or 10 euro's, I don't think that it'll make a difference.
You do know aircraft are normally maintained at night right? Just a minor detail.
The maintenance planning will be different with a turboprop fleet. If the aircraft are new or almost new, they are less prone to technical issues. The nightly daily checks also fade away, leaving no work to be done at night.

What's going to be interesting to see is if they will use this opportunity to change the way the fleet is managed from the current rather chaotic low utilization operation to a streamlined, high utilization operation, with around 2 aircraft always ready on standby, ready to be swapped for any aircraft going tech.

Are BRU's jet bridges able to accommodate the Q400NG?

cnc
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Re: BrusselsAirlines - the TURBOPROPS will come!

Post by cnc »

Flanker wrote: Are BRU's jet bridges able to accommodate the Q400NG?
i don't think so, its a lot lower then the RJ's.
props are normally at the apron 4 power-in/out stands

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