Boeing 787 news

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RoMax
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Boeing 787 news

Post by RoMax » 28 May 2011, 14:11

Finally after all these years of delays, disappointments, missed deadlines, missed targets,... Boeing is nearing certification and first delivery of their two new flagships, the B787 and B748.
This topic is intended to collect the most important news about these two aircraft in the comming weeks and months (so no need to open a new topic for 787 or 748 news).

I will begin with the news from last week (probably most of you already know these things, but anyway):

- In early June F&R (Functionality and Reliability) and ETOPS testing will begin on the B787. For these tests the 787's will operate as if it is in commercial service, simulating failures/problems to see how the 787 handles this. ZA102, the 9th build 787 will have an important stake in these tests. This aircraft is reworked the previous weeks to bring it completely to the delivery standards. It's the first production aircraf to be completely finished as it should be. This will probably also be the first B787 delivered to ANA. ETOPS and F&R testing will take a month or a bit more.
- Testing on the RR 787 is finished for 96%, the GE 787 is finished with 75% of its testing.
- The FAA has to give a Type Inspection Authorization (TIA) before F&R and ETOPS testing can begin, but this should happen in the comming days/weeks.
- As from 4 July ZA002 ( the second test aircraft wich is in ANA colors) will conduct SRVO (service ready validation operations) testing in Japan for ANA out of Haneda Airport. It will undergo maintenance by ANA staff, ground service operations, refuelling,...

- B747-8F still has to start F&R testing, the start of these tests depends on the approval by the FAA of a design change of the Honeywell flight management software. Boeing expect to start F&R testing in the comming days.
- RC503, one of the five B748F test aircraft is send to Lackland to undergo required rework before delivery to Cargolux. This is the first B748F to end testing.
- Testing of the B747-8i is going very smooth aswell. The -8i would operate around 600 test hours and they currently already did more than 240 hours.

- B787 production is currently at two per month, will to to 2.5 this summer. Boeind don't want to go up with production before first delivery because they already have so many unfinished 787's waiting for rework and delivery.
- First 787 in Charleston will be a 787 for UA/CO and production will start in July. At least, let's hope so, the unions wich represent the workers at the Everett production plant went to court to avoid Boeing building 787's in Charleston.
- The horizontal stabilizer of the B787-9 will be build by Boeing itself in Seattle. Alenia wich is building the horizontal stabilizer for the B787-8 messed it up and caused even more delays, so they will lose the contract for the 787-9. But there might be a problem, Alenia owns the design of the horizontal stabilizer, but it's not clear if they also own the design of the B787-9 horizontal stabilizer wich is slightly different.

- A longer B787 variant is now named the B787-10X and Boeing said it's an aircraf they will normally do in the comming years (not sure when as they avoid different big projects at the same time: see 787/748). It would be a 6m stretch of the 787-9 wich would give it 43 more seats than the 270-290 seat 787-9. Normally they will keep the -9 wing so the range will be lower than the 787-9, but still attractive for many routes. The B787-10X would be something like the A330-300, a large medium-long range aircraft. Many airlines are interested in this, that's why Boeing never let go the idea of the 787-10X.

- JAL will start a new route from Tokyo Narita to Boston with the B787 in April 2012. This route was impossible before but thanks to the long range of the 787 and the limited capacity Boston will finally get its first link to Asia.

- Norwegian takes over 3 of the 4 B787-8's ordered by Icelandair. This makes a total of 5 B787-8's for Norwegian wich decided last year to lease two ILFC B787-8's. Deliveries of all 788's will run from 2012 to 2015. New York and Bangkok were named by Norwegian as possible future long haul routes.

- Today it was also in the press that China Southern will indeed get its first 787 in the last quarter of this year. So they will get two new flagships this year, their first A380 and B787.
Last edited by RoMax on 24 Jan 2012, 16:35, edited 2 times in total.

134flyer
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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by 134flyer » 28 May 2011, 15:22

MR_Boeing wrote:- First 787 in San Antonio will be a 787 for UA/CO and production will start in July. At least, let's hope so, the unions wich represent the workers at the Everett production plant went to court to avoid Boeing building 787's in San Antonio.
Boeing will open an extra 787 production line at Charleston, SC, NOT at San Antonio, TX. The Boeing facility at San Antonio will rework several 787's which have already been built at Everett.

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RoMax
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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by RoMax » 28 May 2011, 15:49

134flyer wrote:
Boeing will open an extra 787 production line at Charleston, SC, NOT at San Antonio, TX. The Boeing facility at San Antonio will rework several 787's which have already been built at Everett.
Yes indeed the second production line is North Charleston, sorry. I mixed it up with the facility for rework in San Antonio indeed. :oops:
BTW, since a few weeks they are working on the first JAL B787 in San Antonio to get this aircraft ready. It's possible that this aircraft will be used for ETOPS testing for the B787 GE combination as this will be the first GE aircraft fully up to delivery standards wich is needed for ETOPS testing.
But at this moment it is not known when Boeing will start with ETOPS and F&R testing on the GE 787's.

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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by earthman » 30 May 2011, 13:34

It was my understanding that the 787 was designed so that the engines could be swapped between RR and GE without much hassle. Is that still the case? And does that shorten certification?

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RoMax
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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by RoMax » 30 May 2011, 16:40

earthman wrote:It was my understanding that the 787 was designed so that the engines could be swapped between RR and GE without much hassle. Is that still the case? And does that shorten certification?
I know this was the idea, but I tought it seemed to be more difficult than they firt tought because of the differences between the two engine versions. But I don't know how far they are now with this idea...
But anyway it doesn't change anything in the certification process as far as I know. The GE and RR engines are different so many/most things has to be certificated for both the B787 RR and the GE version. Also for ETOPS it doesn't change anything as ETOPS counts for a engine/frame combination. So every engine type combined with the B787 frame has to certified individually.

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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by RoMax » 02 Jun 2011, 17:47

According to General Electric ETOPS en F&R testing on the GE B787 is on track to start mid-July. The GE 788's have finished 80% of the Boeing testing and about 70% of the certification testing.
First delivery of a GE 787 is planned for October and it will be a 787 for JAL.

Also the CEO of Qatar Airways confirmed this week that the 787 problems are behind them and they are confident Boeing can deliver their aircraft 'on time' (what you can call on-time) or even earlier than the current plan once the second production line in Charleston is open. It was a long time ago he said something positive about the 787.

Today the CEO of Boeing also said once again Boeing will not see a profit from their "hot-selling" aircraft for quite some time. The program is over-budget, 3 years delayed (resulting in a lot of compensations for several airlines) and in the first years they sold the B787 for an average price of only 76 million dollar (engines not included) wich is way below the list price.
But despite that, Boeing's share prices are going up. Compared to January the shares of Boeing are much more expensive and their prices are still rising thanks to the nearing deliveries of the B787 and B748 and the production of the B737 and B777 wich is going up.

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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by RoMax » 08 Jun 2011, 20:29

- The 10 first commercial B787 pilots of ANA finished training. Late May they have all ten flown their last simulator sessions and they did some flights on ZA001. All ten pilots did an ILS landing in Moses Lake, Washington and two visual circuits with touch-and-go's.
They are trained as intstructors and will train the following ANA B787 pilots.
Boeing's Training and Flight services afdeling is running at full speed to train B787 pilots worldwide. They have now 8 full flight simulators in service worldwide and of course numerous other training stuff.
If you have never flown Boeing you need 20 days to get certified for the B787, if you have a B777 type rating you only need 5 days.

- Boeing's second final assembly line in North Charleston for the B788 is about to open Friday. Boeing already produces fuselage sections in Nort Charleston, in buildings wich are taken over from companies wich were supposed to build these for Boeing, but they faild to do it like it should be so Boeing took over these productions sites some time ago. This is the first final assembly line of Boeing outside the state of Washington (where they have assembly lines in Renton and Everett). The advantage of North Charleston is that strikes of the unions don't effect the production in North Charleston as they are not repressented by unions. That's also why the union wich represents the Boeing workers in Washington are very angry about the descision of Boeing to open an assembly line overthere.

- Air India is considering defering the deliveries of their B787's because of the lack of cash. They even tought about cancelling the order for 27 aircraft, but now they probably will defer the deliveries. AI is sheduled to get its first B787 in the 4th quarter of 2011. AI is losing 5.8 million dollar a day because of all their problems and competition of especially 9W and Indigo
AI itself doesn't admit a possible defering of the deliveries and Boeing is doesn't want to reply. But AI inside sources say they will indeed defer deliveries.

- As you know the B747-8F, B747-8i and B788 will go to Paris soon. The B748F will fly to Luxembourg after Paris to visit it's launch customer Cargolux (the first aircraft for them is already being prepared in San Antonio, it was one of the test aircraft). The B788 will go to Poland to visit LOT.

- The Honeywell Flight Management Computer (FMC) of the B748F has still some problems and it is still not fully operational during the flights, so it's a question if the full FMC can be certified on time. This is not a fundamental problem for the certification, but it is just annoying to the pilots (and airlines) as they can't use a part of the FMC.
But anyway, the B748F recently started F&R testing (Functionality and realibility testing) with several long flights (8+ hours). These are the last steps before certification wich will be in the comming months.

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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by RoMax » 10 Jun 2011, 13:47

The North Charleston Final Assembly line is about to open today. The first production aircraft will be a B788 for UA (previously planned for CO), final assembly will start in July.
The unions are still angry about this FAL and they are trying to let Boeing stop producing 787's in Charleston as they have no power overthere. At the time Boeing wanted to open a second FAL, Boeing asked IAM (the union wich represents the Boeing workers in Washington state) for a 10- year contract with a no-strike clause. IAM refused, so Boeing decided to open a FAL in a state where the unions have no power.
In Everett Boeing will also open another final assambly line for the B787, this is supposed to be a "surge line", but with the enormous back log (about 835 of firm orders) it will probably become a permanent FAL.

This is no transfer of the FAL from Washington to Charleston and Boeing even expands in Everett also, but the unions just hate the idea that Boeing could continue final assembly of the B787 when they decide strike in Washington.

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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by RoMax » 19 Jun 2011, 19:46

After Roll Royce announced to improve the XWB engine for the Airbus A350-1000 they now announced they want to launch an improved version of the Trent 1000 with a service entry in 2015-2016.

RR prepares to support Boeing and ANA to ensure a smooth EIS of the first B787-8's. Back in 2007 the Trent 1000 was certified for thrust rating at 74 000lb, but the "Package A" Trent 1000 wich will only power the first 4 B788's for ANA is rated at 'just' 64 000lb (these 4 B788's will only operate domestic services for ANA). The fifth B788 for ANA will introduce the "Package B" Trent 1000, tests on ZA004 with these engines started some weeks ago. Package B engines are rated at 70 000lb and brings it within 1% of the planned fuel consumption.
RR is now working on a 3th improved version of the Trent 1000, the "Package C" wich will power the B787-9. The "Package C" is now entering detailed design phase.

But Rolls Royce want to go further than 'just' some EP (enhanced performance) upgrades. By 2015-2016 they want to have a seriously improved version of this engine wich will be capable of power a futur B787 version (the so called -10X wich will be a stretch of the -9). Talks with Boeing recently started. But RR want this seriously improved engine being capable of powering the full B787 familly. When Boeing launches the B787-10X, RR will respond with their offering for the whole B787 familly.

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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by RoMax » 22 Jun 2011, 18:17

In Paris Boeing confirmed again that they want to deliver 12-20 B787-8's by the end of this year with the first delivery sheduled for August or September (if everthing goes as planned now, it will be the end of August). Boeing says the B787-8 may not meet all specifications they wanted it to have, but currently the early B787-8's are able to fly all missions the clients want it to fly. They are continious working on weight reductions and both GE and RR are working on improved versions of their engines for the B787. This will significantly improve the specifications of the B788 in the comming years.

And they have learned (some of) their lessons. Alenia wich is the prime contractor for the horizontal stabilizers of the B788, and who f*cked it up will not be the sole/prime contractor for the B787-9 anymore. Boeing will design and develop the stabilizers itself (Alenia did it for the -8) and as from the moment Boeing thinks the stabilizers are mature enough to be build by a contractor they will let it build by another contractor company. Alenia will follow as a secondary contractor.
The B787-9 will also be significantly more efficient than the B788, thanks to more weight reductions, improved engines,... Thanks to the weight reductions they can achieve on the B789 they know they can easilly build a -10X.

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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by RC20 » 24 Jun 2011, 05:52

I think Boeing stole the Paris air show. New 747s and 787 both.

In numbers Airbus did as usual, the sand bag thing. Pretty much an A320NEO show though Boeing had some great wide body numbers to announce (and with the backlog at 5 years, what can they sell but NEO?)

Maybe most interesting is the destruction of the A350 stategy. They tried to cover the 787 segment and the 777 segment, and did neither well on either end (the A350-900 looks to have found a niche between the two that I did not expect to see, so I was wrong on that).

The 800 is now being shopped as "hey guys, you really should move up to the 900". Much like the 787-3, it looks to be kaput. A heavy downsized tube has never sold (777-100)

The 1000 just does not offer enough of anything for the big buyers to be happy. Only a major rework will get it to what they want (something to compete with the 777 so they don't have to pay full boat). I think its going to be more than 2 years, it will take 100k+ engine thrust and a new wing.

And then its narrower than a 777 (cargo issues if you try to do a freighter). So Boeing can call it the A350 narrow body!

Boeing still has to decide what to do about the 737. That may be an interesting mix of a hybrid Leap X and CFM engine to bridge the gap, and then a new small plane (notice Boeing is now call it the new SMALL AIRCRAFT, not narrow body. Stay tuned

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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by Desert Rat » 24 Jun 2011, 08:56

RC20 wrote:So Boeing can call it the A350 narrow body!
Yeah and with 1450 KVA Elec. output, Europeans can call the 787 the little Electrical powerplant!!!

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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by earthman » 24 Jun 2011, 09:29

Desert Rat wrote:
RC20 wrote:So Boeing can call it the A350 narrow body!
Yeah and with 1450 KVA Elec. output, Europeans can call the 787 the little Electrical powerplant!!!
I heard it shoots lightning bolts towards nearby Airbuses.

On the 737/A320 thing, it almost looks like Boeing is waiting for everybody to start believing they will exit the narrowbody market, and then announce their new toy.

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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by RoMax » 24 Jun 2011, 09:53

earthman wrote:
On the 737/A320 thing, it almost looks like Boeing is waiting for everybody to start believing they will exit the narrowbody market, and then announce their new toy.
I don't think anyone really thinks (at least at this moment) that Boeing would exit the narrowbody market. Even with all the 787 orders it will take YEARS before they break even on that program, B748 will need also more orders. So it's still the narrowbody market (and thank god they build such a good plane as the B777) where they get the most money.

What I also found interesting is that Qatar Airways is quite unhappy with the improvements Airbus/RR promised for the A350-1000, they want it to become an aircraft that is really better than the B77W, but QR said they still don't find it enough. They treat with cancelling, but I think that will not happen, they also treatened Airbus to cancell the A380 because of the delays and the 787 also for the delays. And 1-2 months ago QR was happy to announce that the problems of the B787 are behind them and that they look forward to have that aircraft in fleet. But if Boeing launches the B777-9X/8X and this will be a very good aircraft, Airbus may lose the -1000 order I think.

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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by RoMax » 24 Jun 2011, 11:13

Boeing presented some rough numbers for the B787-10X:

It will be a an aircraft wich is roughly 15% bigger than the B787-9, for about 320 passengers. MTOW will be simular to that of the B787-9; 251 000kg. Engines will get 76 000lb of thrust. The range will be something like 6900nm/ 12 600km. This rather 'small' range compared to the -8 and -9 is because it keeps the wing of the B787-9 (wich is already a stretch of the B787-8 wing). This makes the -10X something like the Airbus A330-300 is from the -200 (a stretch, with lower range, but popular for many airlines as you often don't need more than 12 600km of range).

According to Boeing, the -10X will have phenomenal seat mile economics. They expect it to be 11% lower then their predictions of the seat mile costs of the Airbus A350-900 and even 5% better than the -1000. But that was before Airbus announced the improved specifications of the -1000.

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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by RoMax » 24 Jun 2011, 16:17

LOT will be the first European customer of the B787 and during the visit of the B787 in Warshaw they announced they will take the oppertunity of the delivery of their first 787 to introduce a new/revised color sheme.
Their B787's will get 18 business class seats, 21 premium economy seats and 213 economy class seats.

See the link to found out how the new livery (and B787 cabin) will look like:

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... rance.html

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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by earthman » 25 Jun 2011, 00:43

:thumbup: for the new livery.

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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by RoMax » 26 Jun 2011, 21:03

The final stage of testing for the RR (Package A) powered B787 started today. ZA102 (the second aircraft for ANA) will operate 300 test hours (this will be long flights of 8+ hours) in the comming weeks for F&R (functionality & reliability) testing and ETOPS testing. All testing points are already performed by Boeing itself but they will be repeated for the certification process.
This is the final step before the FAA will certificate the B787. But the ETOPS testing will only count for the first 4 B787's for ANA as they will be the only B787's with Package A engines. These tests will be repeated with the Package B engines so that these B787's will have a ETOPS certification at the time ANA gets its first international configured B787 by the end of the year.
But after the FAA certified the B787, the Japanese Civil Aviation Bureau has to approve the B787 before it can enter service for ANA. ANA expects approval in the comming months so that the B787's EIS will be between 21 September and 21 December. Between first delivery and EIS, ANA will operate test and promotion flights.

The only tests that are still being performed with the B787 are ETOPS/F&R, GE powered B787 testing and testing of the Package B engines on ZA004.

Certification is now really comming close.

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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by RoMax » 28 Jun 2011, 12:14

Boeing will have a ETOPS certification in two phases. Boeing will first certificate the B787 for ETOPS 180 and that will be finished by the time of first delivery to ANA in August/September.

Due to changed FAA rules, Boeing will have to make a software adjustment before ETOPS 330 certification. Boeing said there is a new regulatory guidance concerning low fuel alterting that requires an alerting system software change for operations above ETOPS 180. This will be ready early 2012. Boeing said it will be ready for the first airline wich requires ETOPS 330 and that will be United wich will use it for Houston- Auckland. For the earlier B787's, ETOPS 180 is enough.

Boeing started F&R/ETOPS testing on 26 June with ZA102 (the second ANA aircraft) will will operate 300 flight hours.

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Re: Boeing 787 and B748 nearing first delivery

Post by itami » 04 Jul 2011, 07:30

Throughout the coming days, ANA pilots, together with Boeing, will fly a 787 on actual airline routes in Japan using airline dispatch and flight rules. ANA’s mechanics and ground crews also will gain experience with the airplane in a simulated operational environment.
The 787 debuted in Asia yesterday with a landing at Haneda Airport in Tokyo at 6:21 a.m. (local time). More than a thousand media, ANA employees and aviation enthusiasts gathered to witness the 787’s arrival . Sporting ANA’s livery, the 787 flight test airplane ZA002 flew non-stop to Tokyo from Seattle.
Throughout the week-long validation, the 787 will experience simulated day-to-day airline operations. Maintenance, servicing and flight crew operations will be conducted at five airports in Tokyo, Osaka (Itami and Kansai), Okayama and Hiroshima. ANA’s first scheduled service with the 787 will be either the Haneda-Okayama or Haneda-Hiroshima route when deliveries begin later this year.
:mrgreen:Image

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