The future of Brussels Airlines with Lufthansa

[Air Key West]

I am tempted to add to my previous post that, given that b.air is likely to be stuck with their current fleet for at least another five years (sincerely hope I'm wrong), I think it should be possible to give all (or most) B737s a make-over so that they are equipped with proper galleys which would allow them to operate all types of flights (including TLV/BEY). I don't know anything about it, but airlines sometimes radically change the interior of their aircraft, so would it not be possible to redo the galleys on the 737s ? Where there is a will, there is a way. Of course, I forgot, somebody is going to say there is no money to do that. Unless LH......

[tolipanebas]

A cosmetic revamp of an aircraft interior is not the same as a reconfiguration of the galleys which is much more difficult. Still remember the big issue with the A380? Electrical wiring...

If you want to retrofit an aircraft built for short haul sectors or pure charter ops for longer haul ops, you'll have to fit ovens to the galleys, meaning you'll have to rework the full electrical architecture of the aircraft. Can this be done? Sure, SN did it on its latest A330 (OO-SFW), which came from Air Madrid and was converted, but it is exceptional to do this, it costs a lot of time and money as the plane needs to be recertified by Airbus in the end.

It's not just about putting a few new seats in and placing a microwave oven in the galley like some seem to think... which is why it won't be done on the 737 fleet for instance. They are all going out as their lease contracts expire in a couple of years, so why waste big money on them?

Is the current SN fleet ideal? Nope, the fleet contains too many planes inherited from a low cost airline and is thus not suited for the kind of ops SN does. One can argue that at least SN shouldn't take in new unsuitable planes like OO-SSP, but then when you think about it, the situation isn't unique either: 00-SSP came from AF and was built especially for them WITHOUT the ovens, so if AF can get away with not offering a hot meal on a flight from ORY to NCE, then SN shouldn't bother on a BRU-BHX flight either. The only thing is they should really keep the plane off longer routes like TLV or DME, but because of the small A319 fleet this is sometimes not possible if one of the regulars goes tech.... But it will get better in future, I hope
Not to mention that AZ are also operating a lot of flights with 737s these days, which come from Air One and are about the same standards as the ex-VEX ones... Same for OS and the 737s inherited from Lauda.
I'd say, with the merger mania which is currently ruling Europe, you'd better get used to this kind of heterogenous fleets for the next few years....

[NCB]

A galley reconfiguration is not such a heavy item.
It can cost some money but it can be done if the investment is worth the return.
Comparatively, a birdstrike can be alot more expensive than reconfiguring the galleys of the 10 aircraft.

I don't think that you need to serve hot meals on a 3 hour flight.
Just serve a good Kosher salad and most customers will be happy.
Those who are not happy can fly El Al at twice the price if they want their hot meal.

But this is just small bean-counting in the light of SN's great future.
Just imagine what SN's fleet could look like in 2015: A330's, A350's, Cseries,...

[tolipanebas]

A galley reconfiguration is not such a heavy item.
It can cost some money but it can be done if the investment is worth the return.
Comparatively, a birdstrike can be alot more expensive than reconfiguring the galleys of the 10 aircraft....

If the plane has been built without galleys, it isn't that easy to retrofit them either.
It can be done, but at a price.
Let's be fair: is it worth doing on 20+ year old 737s which are already being phased out? I'd say not.

I don't think that you need to serve hot meals on a 3 hour flight.
Just serve a good Kosher salad and most customers will be happy.
Those who are not happy can fly El Al at twice the price if they want their hot meal.

You've obviously never been on a TLV flight. At risk of being flamed, but Jews are amongst the most dificult pax out there, especially when going to the home land.

But this is just small bean-counting in the light of SN's great future.
Just imagine what SN's fleet could look like in 2015: A330's, A350's, Cseries,...

On ther fleet, I'd say they are doing a reasonably good job for the time being with the planes at hand. Fleet planning is a difficult job in which you need to look ahead decades so is not easy to do at an airline that changes comercial strategy every 18 months (from full service, to pure low cost, to hybrid to full service again). I am sure the beacons are set now (thanks to LH), and the new fleet will be perfectly suited for the job, but it will take years indeed. Don't blame the airline of today, blame the VEX idiots who ran it a few years ago....

[Air Key West]

As usual, tolipanebas, you have strong arguments and I accept them. However, b.air has to realise that (at least as far as I am concerned) I am not prepared to continue (even only from time to time as I don't always fly business class) to pay the high C class fares for the poor service they are offereing in return. It is a very poor quality/price ratio.
And I dont agree with you, NCB, when you say there is no need to serve a hot meal on a three-hour-flight. When you pay for C class, you are ALSO entitled to expect a full hot meal at meal times, even on short flights. It should not be the duration of the flight which dictates whether a hot meal is served (unlike what airlines think), but the class of service.
Several years ago (in the good old days), BD served a hot meal (at meal times) in C class between for instance LHR and EDI, i.e. on a domestic flight lasting just one hour. It was absolutely feasable.
But to get back to the subject of this thread, I am looking forward to what LH will do with regards to SN after the summer holidays. Patience.....

[HighInTheSky]

You are quite right Air Key West, the business class is not what it should be. However, they are constantly monitoring and adapting the service to upgrade the inflight experience.

Things that should change are:
- Awareness of crew for C class pax
- Not only wine/champagne glasses in real glass, but also the soft drink glasses
- Hot meals on breakfast/ lunch/ dinner hours (possibly 2 options to choose from)
- Seats on the B737 fleet are just not suited for SN's ops
- Coatrooms on all A/C

Now, the service part can be adapted quite simply, but the interiors is quite a different story... As Tolipanebas said, the galley in OO-SSP isn't made for hot meals. There is an oven, but only for 2 dishes (cockpit crew). Last year they were planning to refit OO-SSP, but this year I haven't heard anything yet about such a refit...

The B737's on the other hand all have ovens in the front, so that is not the problem there. The only problem is just the plane that is not suited to have a C class...

I'm sure that *A and LH will ask some changes in all classes, so let's hope that it will improve soon

And to Shanti:
There are flights that are perfoming very well in C class:
GVA (sometimes up to 30 C class pax), FRA, LGW, SXB, MAD, BCN, FCO, GOT, CPH, MUC,...

[tolipanebas]

As usual, tolipanebas, you have strong arguments and I accept them.

It's not that I don't agree with everything you've said, quite on the contrary even!
If you've paid 1,000 euro for a return flight in Europe, you shouldn't be disappointed by the service.
But there's not much anybody at SN can do about it right now.
Crews are doing their utmost best, smiling till there faces get paralized, excusing themselves in any of the 4 or more languages they know for all sort of things totally out of their hands.
All I can say is you should take into account that things aren't much better at half the european airlines either, to the exception of the 3 biggies (and their dependencies). SN has been partly absorbed by LH just over one month ago, so you can not expect it to be up to LH/LX standards given where we come from.
As I've said, some VEX idiots have managed to set us back years in only a few months!

However, b.air has to realise that (at least as far as I am concerned) I am not prepared to continue (even only from time to time as I don't always fly business class) to pay the high C class fares for the poor service they are offereing in return. It is a very poor quality/price ratio....

I don't want to disappoint you, but let me tell you that right now you are not really a key customer to SN.
I don't particularly like the company's point of view either, but right now business class is aimed at long haul connecting pax (allowing them to continue their journey in the same booking class) and at pax who've booked through a codeshare partner (otherwise LH and STAR wouldn't want to codeshare with us). That's it.

You'll say: SN's also sells C class tickets on Europe to its own pax!
Indeed, and the aswer I was given from a manager was: "well, we have ample open seats, we may as well offer them as C class seats too and take whatever extra revenue we can get, but it is not what we market or aim for! I think they don't dare to market C class in Europe on their own becasue they know the product isn't good enough....

[NCB]

You've obviously never been on a TLV flight. At risk of being flamed, but Jews are amongst the most dificult pax out there, especially when going to the home land.

That is indeed a consideration I did not take in to account
Let it be what it is, I do not think that TLV is going to make any difference in SN's actual network.

I think that sending a red-eye to Moscow is a lot more interesting, so that the arrival time coincides in BRU with the morning longhaul rush to the U.S. and Africa and the morning flight being slightly later would help longhaul pax connecting to Moscow.
I would also send a flight to Pulkovo, St. Petersburg, a 5 million souls city, large enough catchement to fill 150 seats a day both ways. Kiev can also be served pretty easily.

[tolipanebas]

I think that sending a red-eye to Moscow is a lot more interesting, so that the arrival time coincides in BRU with the morning longhaul rush to the U.S. and Africa and the morning flight being slightly later would help longhaul pax connecting to Moscow.

Actually, SN would love to fly DME twice daily (one red eye, one day flight) and had already announced the route, but the Russian Government does not want to approve such a flight (because it would be head on competition with SU's own daily red eye flight)....

Also, interesting to note it was scheduled to be operated on 737, because a red eye flight needs minimal service, so you see sometimes SN has great ideas, but its not just about having an idea, but being allowed to do it...

I would also send a flight to Pulkovo, St. Petersburg, a 5 million souls city, large enough catchement to fill 150 seats a day both ways. Kiev can also be served pretty easily.

SN operated to LED for over 2 years during the entire summer season (April to October) with the RJ85: let me tell you the average load was around 40 pax! No wonder we haven't resumed it this year, given the cost of fuel!
You'll say that summer months don't see a lot of business pax and that as such you can not use those flights as a reference, but let's face it, contrary to Moskou, St Petersburg is mainly a tourist destination.
There are really only very few Belgians doing business in St Petersburg, so the flight would depend heavily on feeding pax, yet those are likely to prefer an airline with multiple daily connections; or are you advocating SN to compete with them on price? On a route of over 3 hours? Not realistic IMO! Only large network carriers can do such a thing, not a medium sized airline like SN.
Besides, in the star alliance network, LED is wel covered by LH and OS, so no need to add SN to that.....
especially not given the fact all of these carriers belong to the same group! No need to compete with yourself over a limited number of pax...

Any new route of SN must match these 2 simple requirements (as dictated by LH):
1- be aimed at areas where the Belgian airline had a traditional strong presence (read: focus on long haul towards the black continent and forget about Asia and other daydream destinations) or at better connecting the exisiting routes to/from AFI with Europe (hence the fact I'd focus on getting that early moring return flight from NCE asap for instance)
2- be selfsupporting through O&D pax if it doesn't match the above rule.

I am sure LED isn't in either of these 2 cateories and neither is Kiev....

[Crosswind]

Don't blame the airline of today, blame the VEX idiots who ran it a few years ago....

Would you please be kind enough to explain this kind of sad words? "VEX idiots" is a recurrent music on your posts.

Speaking about the 737, please before writting stupidities, think twice. The 737 are indeed builded on a LCC config, unfortunately, but saying they are all 20+ years old, that is bullshit

7 of them have their first flight date starting from 1996 to 1998... Definitely more recent thant the A330's, same age than the A319's...

B.Air has always been pro-Airbus, and I can't blame them. It's a choice. But be fare yourself, the 737 is a very good battle horse, far better than the Avro, and largely equal comparing to the Airbus...

From an ex VEX, proud to fly for Brussels Airlines...

[fretn]

To say that the the 737 is a better working horse than the avro is comparing apples to pears, they have a different purpose, the avro is used on bussiness destinations & small airports (LCY, Rotterdam, Antwerp, ...) the 737 has been the perfect leisure aircraft since the start.
I hope that they throw out all the avro & 737 aircraft and replace them with Emb/Crj & Airbus a320 family (which will probably be the case, as LH is moving to a airbus narrowbody fleet).

[Sikiri]

I hope that they throw out all the avro & 737 aircraft and replace them with Emb/Crj & Airbus a320 family (which will probably be the case, as LH is moving to a airbus narrowbody fleet).

I can understand your willingness to get rid of the SN 737's. The seats are too cramped. But (in my opinion) the Avro's at SN are great aircraft - seat pitch wise- . Ok, they are not new and shiny, but if I can choose between an Avro and a CRJ, the Avro wins every time. CRJ's are way too small.

[Crosswind]

There's passenger point of view, and a pure aircraft performance point of view.

Seats config and/or galley config are not fixed for a given aircraft... You can have 737's with luxurious cabin, as well as the opposite...

The question is: now and for the future, what is the best option? No one can answer, until now...

[Atlantis]

However, b.air has to realise that (at least as far as I am concerned) I am not prepared to continue (even only from time to time as I don't always fly business class) to pay the high C class fares for the poor service they are offereing in return. It is a very poor quality/price ratio....

I don't want to disappoint you, but let me tell you that right now you are not really a key customer to SN.

Wow, turn the gaz back tolipanebas. I never heard such a reaction to a client. Be glad that pax will fly in SN C class and in general with SN. A client is a client and SN is not the airline who can permit to say that one of their pax is not a ky customer. We are not in the Middle East or in the far East where they can write increasing number of pax.

[Air Key West]

Unfortunately, I am afraid tolipanebas is right. High revenue pax have never been a target or a concern for b.air. I can be wrong on this one, but I suspect the current management of wanting to sabotage the European C class because they never wanted it and because it was imposed on them by LH. The problem is that with a bad product now, it will be difficult to convince high yield pax to try the C class again in the future. As far as I am concerned, I will probably not fly C class with b.air in the future again, unless LH decides to bring it up to LH standards. The poor performance in C class shows indeed there has been no will to offer an excellent product in spite of sky high prices. Suicidable. But then, perhaps the current management feel the end may be near for them, so this could explain their attitude. I have no evidence of this, but it is the way I, as a pax, feel that those who make the decisions think of us. Let us happily fly in the red with lots of families, tourists and backpackers onboard. Who cares about pax who could bring in a lot of money ? Not the management, if you ask me.

[tolipanebas]

I never heard such a reaction to a client. Be glad that pax will fly in SN C class and in general with SN. A client is a client and SN is not the airline who can permit to say that one of their pax is not a ky customer!

Read me again, because you have misunderstood what I wrote.
SN introduced business class as it was a condition to join STAR and to offer a continuous booking class to its long haul and code share pax. Anybody willing to buy a Brussels Airlines' ticket intra-Europe can do so too, but it's really not the aim of the game for SN (hence me calling such passanger not a 'key customer' to the airline).

I can be wrong on this one, but I suspect the current management of wanting to sabotage the European C class because they never wanted it and because it was imposed on them by LH.

I wouldn't go as far as to say they sabotage it, but they don't see it as 'theirs' but rather that of 'others'.
Besides, it musn't be a great feeling to see how Lufthansa basically wipes away 2 years of their own work while snubbing it as 'rubbish'. However, let's be positive and say it shall grow on them...
I've seen some great improvements to our C-class product already since it was reintroduced, but I'll agree with you completely: there's still a long way to go!

Don't blame the airline of today, blame the VEX idiots who ran it a few years ago....

Would you please be kind enough to explain this kind of sad words? "VEX idiots" is a recurrent music on your posts..

Sure, don't take it personal as ex-VEX crew.
I am talking about the idiot called Neil Burrows and the ones he brought with hem, guys and girls who thought they had to transform Brussels Airlines from a 4 star service airline into yet another loss making LCC and could barely be stopped from terminating our long haul operations!
We'd be well off if he had been given the full go ahead for his plans, wouldn't we?

B.Air has always been pro-Airbus, and I can't blame them. It's a choice. But be fair yourself, the 737 is a very good battle horse, far better than the Avro, and largely equal comparing to the Airbus...

We're not going to discuss which plane is better, because we'd then first have to decide what we see as superior characteristics in a plane; all I can say is that comfort-wise, the 737 is inherently the most uncomfortable shorthaul plane of the 3 we currently operate, not because of configuration choices, but due to its narrower cabin.
As you've seen from the comments above, don't overrate the ex-VEX 737... it's not really a plane much liked by our frequent flyers and there is a reason why they are predominantly deployed on 'tourist routes'...

The question is: now and for the future, what is the best option? No one can answer, until now..

The 737NG is a very nice plane indeed, although it still remains second to the A319 to most observers, but regardless, the choice for the future really is a no-brainer to me as fleet renewal isn't going to be decided in BRU, but by LH, even if they let us do a 'comparative study' first.
In the end whoever pays the bill will be allowed to make the decision, so you can bet the German writing the check, will want to agree with the final decision.
Do you really have great hopes LH will allow SN to order let's say ten odd 737NGs amid a fleet of over 200 A320s throughout their group (LH/LX/OS/BM)???? I'd be the first to question the Germans on their decision then, but knowing their no-nonsense approach, I am sure I won't have to.

[Crosswind]

Thanks for your fare reply, Tolipanebas.

Believe me, I'm not pro Boeing or pro-this, pro-that... Even I'm not telling the 737 is the best of the best (and definitely not the ex VEX one!).

As a crew, we perfectly know that these "old" 737 doesn't match the actual B.Air standard. Although we are crew, we are also for most of us, even in the cockpit, "near the customer"...And to see our old seats before embarking the first business is a shame (for me).

Also, I've been quite a lot in an Avro, as a passenger and, yes, this is a really comfortable aircraft (and the seats have a much better look and are wider than ours, in the "73"). Speaking about A32X, my opinion is a bit less enthusiast, but again this is not the aim of the discussion

All in all, I'll be happy, regardless of the fleet renewal, if this (our) company can survive, develop and growth according to its great potential.

[tolipanebas]

Thanks for your fare reply, Tolipanebas.

I was glad to be asked for clarification by you, because I hate to be be misunderstood, which -I admit- was indeed possible. Believe me, it is nothing personal against you or anybody else of the VEX crews, as I think you're every bit as professional as 'we' (if I am still allowed to talk like that), so I do want to make this absolutely clear.

As you've probably already understood by now, I (and basically everybody from the 'old-SN' crews) am extremely pissed by what has been done over the past 2 years to 'our' nice little full service airline by some know-it-all managers from VEX who thought they had to turn us into yet another LCC, a strategy which in hinsight did nothing but mess around with the very fine product and brand Brussels Airlines had.
With shareholders who couldn't care less, we seemed to be changing strategy every season!
Luckily LH will bring us some focus, because I really do believe we need it and they can provide it.

All in all, I'll be happy, regardless of the fleet renewal, if this (our) company can survive, develop and growth according to its great potential.

I do agree with you, and I have a lot of confidence in its future.
LH didn't take us onboard just to take our pax away and then close us down.
SN must be willing to refocus on what LH sees as important: long haul operations to Africa, European feeding of the long haul network and high yielding origin and destination traffic to/from BRU.
To some people it all sounds as 'back to the roots', to others it does sound like a real culture change, but I am convinced that with the help of STAR-alliance, it will proof a much more successfull strategy than wanting to be just another loss making LCC.
Let's say it this way: I'd prefer working for a new SWISS every day than for yet another SkyEurope and I think so do you!

[sn26567]

As from the start of the winter season, SN will start codesharing with LH's UK affiliate BMI on the BRU-LHR route and thus discontinue the codeshare with BA.

I guess that the codeshare with BA on the flights to/from Billund will also be dicontinued at the same date?

[sdbelgium]

I guess that the codeshare with BA on the flights to/from Billund will also be dicontinued at the same date?

Yes, dummy booking shows it is not possible to book the flights on an SN 50XX code.

P.S. I didn't know there were three BLL-flights a day? (only tried on Fridays, maybe that's why?)