Future of Brussels Airlines

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 13 Oct 2007, 12:25

Air Key West wrote:I'm afraid all we can do is be patient and wait until b.air publishes their financial results for their first half year of operations. A breakdown by load factors and foremost financial results for European Business class, b.flex, b.light and African operations would be welcome. As long as these figures have not been published, all we can do is speculate according to our own experience with the airline and own/subjective perception of what we have seen. We'll have a clearer view when/if they publish those figures.

A company that is not listed on a stock exchange doesn't have to publish quarter (or half year) financial results. Just one official Year Result (Jaarrekening / Compte Annuel) will do. So you are indeed correct: all you can do is speculate - which is done here quite well...

By the way: the joint SNBA/VEX results over 2006 aren't that bad, keeping in mind that SNBA is only flying since 2002, and that the Virgin-group wasn't investing in Virgin Express anymore.
http://company.brusselsairlines.com/en/ ... :141-16698

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 13 Oct 2007, 14:01

An operational profit of just...1.6% of total revenue...

I mean...it's not bad, but this clearly demonstrates the lack of efficiency, doens't it?

For example SQ has over 10% of operational profit...
http://www.singaporeair.com/saa/en_UK/d ... FY0607.pdf

But yeah, that's like comparing a Ferrari and a Lada...

Gate-A1 · Post by **Gate-A1** » 13 Oct 2007, 16:15

The big difference between Singapore Airlines and Brussels airlines is that SG did not started on the ruins of a former company a few years ago but has more that 60 years of history.

It is not comparing a Ferrari and a Lada...

It's comparing apples and bananas.
But I'm an accountant, not a pilot so I'm not an expert in airline management.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 13 Oct 2007, 16:20

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:An operational profit of just...1.6% of total revenue... I mean...it's not bad, but this clearly demonstrates the lack of efficiency, doens't it?

It is really impossible for you to post something positive - or even neutral - about Brussels Airlines, isn't it? The 1,6 does not mean "lack of efficiency" for an airline which is only 5 years old: it simply means "it should improve". When the results were presented, Davignon told the press that he was unhappy with the 1,6 - and that he wants the European average of 5% by 2009. I don't think that the operational profit will be much better in 2007, because the strike threat in March has chased away hundreds (if not housands) of passengers, thus decreasing the average occupation.

(The shareholders are more then happy with the 14,5 mio euro nett profit).

A390 · Post by **A390** » 13 Oct 2007, 17:57

The 1.6% margin at BruAir compares favourably to the massive losses at Vuelling , and the continuous losses-since- start-of-ops at Sky Europe...

Ducatibiker · Post by **Ducatibiker** » 13 Oct 2007, 18:19

Since we are talking about numbers, the ones I care as a passenger are pricing, value and service. What chased me away is not the strike treat in March but the disappearance of service/business class in Europe

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 13 Oct 2007, 19:27

The 1,6 does not mean "lack of efficiency" for an airline which is only 5 years old

Thanks for your comments guys, now is time for SWISS numbers:

The airline, that was established at the very same time from the same bankrupt airline, with nearly the same fleet as SN:

Airbus A340-300 10
Airbus A330-200 11
Airbus A321 6
Airbus A320 17
Airbus A319 7
Avro RJ100* 20
Avro RJ85* 3
Total 74

Swiss (the country) has a population of 7.5 million inhabitants, a little less than Belgium.
Its economy is centered on 2 main cities: Zurich and Geneva, comparable to Brussels and Antwerp.

Comparable market conditions, different profits and levels of efficiency:

"SWISS generated total income from operating activities of CHF 4 153 million in 2006", "Consolidated net profit for
the year amounted to CHF 263 million".

Which is 6.3% of operational profit margin.

1 CHF = 0.6€
Means 2006 profit: 157.7 million €

They have been making small losses the first years but it paid out.

They have a strategy, they have patners, they have funds, they have a hub and the "company is only 5 years old."
10 million € of profits every year is no warranty to the future.

Let's all hope Africa will bring something to SN.

jan_olieslagers · Post by **jan_olieslagers** » 13 Oct 2007, 19:36

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:nearly the same fleet as SN:
Airbus A340-300 10
Airbus A330-200 11

That makes 21 long-range planes, even not counting the A319's. Didn't SNBA start out with 3? Nearly the same fleet? Where and when did you learn numbers?

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 13 Oct 2007, 20:49

Yes, sure, go on with making Brussels Airlines looking ridiculous, now by comparing them to Swiss. Or to another airline who's doing excellent. I'm not expecting anything else from you. But contrary to you, I am quite convinced that Brussels Airlines will not be mentionned in the near or far future in justplanes' list of defunct airlines.

"Switzerland consistently ranks high on quality of life indices, including highest per capita income, one of the highest concentrations of computer and Internet usage per capita, highest insurance coverage per individual, and high health care rates."

Neutral (non European) source: U.S. Department of State: http://state.gov/r/pa/ei/bgn/3431.htm

DannyVDB · Post by **DannyVDB** » 13 Oct 2007, 20:51

FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:
The 1,6 does not mean "lack of efficiency" for an airline which is only 5 years old
Thanks for your comments guys, now is time for SWISS numbers:

The airline, that was established at the very same time from the same bankrupt airline, with nearly the same fleet as SN:

Airbus A340-300 10
Airbus A330-200 11
Airbus A321 6
Airbus A320 17
Airbus A319 7
Avro RJ100* 20
Avro RJ85* 3
Total 74

Swiss (the country) has a population of 7.5 million inhabitants, a little less than Belgium.
Its economy is centered on 2 main cities: Zurich and Geneva, comparable to Brussels and Antwerp.

Comparable market conditions, different profits and levels of efficiency:

"SWISS generated total income from operating activities of CHF 4 153 million in 2006", "Consolidated net profit for
the year amounted to CHF 263 million".

Which is 6.3% of operational profit margin.

1 CHF = 0.6€
Means 2006 profit: 157.7 million €

They have been making small losses the first years but it paid out.

They have a strategy, they have patners, they have funds, they have a hub and the "company is only 5 years old."
10 million € of profits every year is no warranty to the future.

Let's all hope Africa will bring something to SN.

Sorry, but you're wrong ... SWISS made HUGE losses over the first years.

They had support from the private and public sectors - far more important than the support for SN.

Danny

DannyVDB · Post by **DannyVDB** » 13 Oct 2007, 21:00

Ducatibiker wrote:Since we are talking about numbers, the ones I care as a passenger are pricing, value and service. What chased me away is not the strike treat in March but the disappearance of service/business class in Europe

Some of the members here repeat and repeat that they keep away from SN because of the lack of quality (value for money), champagne, ...

OK, some of you might be disappointed, but I think that SN can't build an airline on the wishes of a VERY small minority of clients/pax who wants other people, the personnel and the company to pay for their fantasies.

Please keep in mind that only a very small part of the pax flies in business (this was true for SN, SNBA, ... but also for most other companies with some exceptions). In addition, this number was decreasing. Only buying champaign costed the SNBA > 2.0million € per year (for the sake of whom??? - I flew a lot with them in business and I even don't like champagn). So if these people want to fly another airline, great - just do it ...

But please, do not repeat 100 times your same little truth ... It's becoming anoying.

regards,
Danny

LeFreak · Post by **LeFreak** » 13 Oct 2007, 21:15

i know i'm not an aviation expert/analyst like most here on the forum, i'm just a humble guy sitting in the right front seat of the brussels airlines avros, so sorry for giving my opinion here, but the last few weeks i have observed that Flex is doing quiet well .. too bad for all the people who don't want to fly us anymore (and who most likely have never even tried the product) but to be honest .. i won't miss you ..

Airbus330steward · Post by **Airbus330steward** » 13 Oct 2007, 22:05

This is my first posting. I'm reading the forum already since a few years. There are really some interesting posts, but a lot of replays are based upon air.
Brussels Airlines isn't that bad. Believe me I'm not an absolutly fan of BruAir, but consider that they had to start upon the ashes of Sabena and in a country with no long term vision on the airtransport sector.

Why always talk about champagne in business class. On Sabena flights the business class was almost empty on european flights. A lot of celebreties even were booked in economy. I persomally was on a flight from Rome to Brussels with Toots Tielemans and his orchestra next to me in economy.

Other airlines aren't always better in inflight service. I took AZ, KL, BA, LH and others, and on European flights it wasn't always the Max. On Long haul flights it is different, But as BruAir is aiming on the European and African Market I'm not disapointed about them. A glass of champagne isn't the most important thing. By the way drinking wine on an altitude of 30000 feet is not ideal to enjoy wine. Why is food so spicie in an airplane? The taste is disapearing on such an altitude.So please don't repeat always the same and listen to people who are in the business. To make decisions isn't that easy, and a lot of things have to be take in consideration before a real good decision can be made.

I don't think many of the people here on this forum are dealing with making decisions on the highest level. Neither do I in the airline business, but in other sectors of the society I must take decisions, so I know a little bit of what I'm talking about.

Lets wait and see what will happen in the future with BruAir and let's hope it will turn out well for them, because we badly need a significant airline here in Brussels. And after all keep posting your ideas, it is sometimes very interesting

TWA · Post by **TWA** » 13 Oct 2007, 22:08

I, as a humble cabin attendant can confirm "LeFreak"'s statement ,

Since 3 weeks B.flex is booming indeed, sometimes we end up having more B flex pax than B light.

I saw on several destinations bookings of 100+ B.flex like eg. : 124 flex and 40 light

, full house on a B734 last week!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.

But in general, it ranges from 20 to 40/50/60 b-flex on the B737's, which is not bad at all either.

SN1203 · Post by **SN1203** » 13 Oct 2007, 22:42

Good to see that some common sense is finally returning to this forum!

Since 3 weeks B.flex is booming indeed, sometimes we end up having more B flex pax than B light.

Personally I've been (as a pax) on some flights lately where up to 50% of the pax were seated in b.flex (on the ARJs up to 50 pax).

Some people expect a Business Class service, but forget that they are still paying Economy Class fares (only benchmark fares for the same flights with the competition, and b.flex will always be cheaper). Brussels Airlines' slogan is "The best Economy Class of Europe" and they are right.

Can any of the Brussels Airlines bashers please tell me on which airline in Europe (or even worldwide) you get the following perks with flexible Economy Class tickets:
- priority check-in
- fast-track at security (where available)
- priority boarding (I don't care as I usually board as one of the last passengers anyway)
- pre-seating
- you always get a seat in front of the b.light passengers (i.e. on most flights, you are in the first 5 rows)
- if the flight isn't full, they'll also try to give you an empty seat next to you
- you can switch to an earlier flight for free on the day of your return flight (perfect if your meeting is finished earlier, and always possible on a lot of business routes like GVA/BHX/THF where SN has up to 7 daily flights)
- good meal service (b.flex meals really improved lately)
- ...

I for sure do know that I'm getting much more value for money now than I got in the past with SN Brussels Airlines' flexible tickets! In the past, everybody in Economy got the same service, whether you paid 50 EUR or 500 EUR. Now you have a cheap(er) and a flexible alternative. And to be honest, if you can fly b.flex, I don't see any reason why you would fork out some more money to fly Business Class. After some b.flex return trips, you qualify for Privilege Gold membership anyway (granting you free access to the lounge). The only difference left is the Champagne, and for me personally I couldn't care less.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 14 Oct 2007, 01:24

Since 3 weeks B.flex is booming indeed, sometimes we end up having more B flex pax than B light.

That's a general phenomenon and has been noticed on every airline flying to/from Belgium, from the beginning of September. In just the same way, every single 3+ star hotel in Brussels has been fully booked for the last few weeks, and classy restaurants have been selling dishes as if they were selling apples.

There's been alot of business movements in Brussels and Antwerp lately and it's going to hold on for another 2 to 3 weeks.

B.Air isn't that bad an airline for flying as passenger, I agree.

B.flex is aimed for a specific category that we can call the "selfsustaining businessman". A good pricing and flexibility.
What does an average businessman want when the airline is charging his company?
The best full service, a relaxing travel experience, a good meal, a big seat, some extra stewardesses taking care, lounges, ...
they don't care about the slogans of SN.

Look at BA for instance, they have a CLUB service which happens to be very dencently priced at the same time.

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 14 Oct 2007, 10:21

Very well said of the people who are working at Brussels Airlines and have hear there voice now on this forum and this topic.

But believe me, new members, some members have a second life on this forum and are thinking they are the big boss of the whole aviation industries. It's gona be time they are going to land and take their shit with them. It's not possible to convince them, they only believe their own stories. This is page X and still al lot of bla, bla, bla. Nothing changed since page 1.

The only thing they say then: don't read it then. Typical.

oodjp · Post by **oodjp** » 14 Oct 2007, 11:13

The future of Brussels Airlines.....

will be Jet Airways Europe!!

Airbus330lover · Post by **Airbus330lover** » 14 Oct 2007, 11:21

Wait and see.

Wat I read on this forum and others about Bru air is pure speculation. The only way is...wait wait wait.
In every industry, you have to construct a strcture, make a serious businss plan and...... keep it secret.

Speculations are always bad and unconstructive

brussels airlines · Post by **brussels airlines** » 14 Oct 2007, 12:18

@Fly4Hours.be: Wrong. A businessman doesn't want to have a 5 stars meal, an extra stewardess, lounges. The average businessmen of today want to fly as fast as possible and as flexible as possible. A businessmen wants to arrive max. 1 hour before flight (b.flex allows 30 min.) no waiting at check-in, no waiting at security and direct boarding and de-boarding. he wants to have his bags directly so he can leave the airport as fast as he can. When he has a meating witch is during longer, he want to change his ticket, without costs. Maybe he wants a light meal on board, but not to much because most of them have to go eating with clients, collegues, bosses etc. Believe me, I know where I'm talking about. Ofcourse there will always be people who want that champagne, that extra stewardess, and free acces to lounge, but that passenger is not the average businessman of today. b.flex is an excellent product for businessman.