I haven't been following this discussion because people just keep repeating themselves and post all sorts of 'facts and figures' which more than half of the time are way off, but now there seems to be some doubt about whether this remarks in relation to additional 737/A320 from SN are true or not, so I step in.
I can confirm that SN's management has indeed said in an internal mail (sort of a bi-weekly 'what's going on inside our company?' e-letter) that a recent capacity study of last summer has shown they need more 150 seaters (what a surprise ) and that as a consequence they will ask the permission from the shareholders to start seeking 3 A320s or 737s, which should join the fleet for next summer season.
They point out however that no permission has been received yet, and that as a consequence of the failed integration of VEX and DAT into 1 single AOC, any such addition will mean that for one category (either DAT or VEX) the addition will have no positive carriere consequences, but that for the other category, it would give more oportunities.
That's all.
I suppose what happened here was that Geert CEO picked up this last line and spinned it into a positive measure to show what effords SN is doing to retain its pilots during an interview on pilot shortage, but once again forgot how ridiculous his argument would sound when taken out of the context as DM did.
Solution for Belgian pilots?
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Guys guys guys
wrong thread --->
sn-adding-medium-haul-aircrafts-t23228.html
Here it's about Belgian airlines and governement measures helping them, not about B.air.
wrong thread --->
sn-adding-medium-haul-aircrafts-t23228.html
Here it's about Belgian airlines and governement measures helping them, not about B.air.
Fly4hours, making the path to airline pilot affordable to all
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I just read on the news that FR is signing a contract with BFS (Belgian Flight School) based in Charleroi to provide them 400 new pilots.
Great news!
http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/geld/economie/603369
Great news!
http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/geld/economie/603369
Fly4hours, making the path to airline pilot affordable to all
Thats the greatest load of rubbish I've ever heard - Ryanair do nothing exclusive with anyone , especially a two bit school like BFS .FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:I just read on the news that FR is signing a contract with BFS (Belgian Flight School) based in Charleroi to provide them 400 new pilots.
Great news!
http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/geld/economie/603369
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BFS has over 20 airplanes spread over 4 bases and is with that the biggest PPL training provider in Belgium, they have a real potential.especially a two bit school like BFS
There is even more than Ryanair, I actually know a bit more about it (a good friend of mine is training there and rumours within the industry), but I ain't gonna post that here
Anyways, all I can say is that BFS is about to become a big player on the European market for pilot training, and that you can consider this deal as very probable.
FR is going to increase its base to 14 aircraft in the next 4 years
Fly4hours, making the path to airline pilot affordable to all
PPL training isn't going to supply FR with too many pilots , Ryanair have always and will always take pilots from any school in europe , they have no exclusivity agreements with anyone and they never will , this is just a press release designed to sell more ATPL courses , I have no doubt that BFS have in the past and will in the future have guys going to FR , the bit that annoys me is the "exclusive agreement" bit . Absolute rubbish . You have a friend at BFS ? Well I have friends at East Midlands Training and perhaps I work there as well from time to time .
I just hate to see students fed a load of lies by flight schools regarding their connections with Airlines , BFS are by no means the only ones to say stuff like this , most of them are guilty of telling potential students a load of crap to get their money .
I just hate to see students fed a load of lies by flight schools regarding their connections with Airlines , BFS are by no means the only ones to say stuff like this , most of them are guilty of telling potential students a load of crap to get their money .
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Yes I know that is a form of marketing.
I also heard they are seeking some partnership with Delta Flight training in Florida... but that students haven't seen anything of it yet.
The lack of pilots will reach a peak by 2011-2012 and continue thereafter . Many are already securing their staff to cope with those problems: Air France and Netjets for instance have set up huge recruiting campaigns, BA are working closely with OAT,etc...
I hope this BFS-Ryanair deal goes through and that it is not just pure "student-keeping" policy, as you say, this might also be a possibility.
We'll know more in the next few months I guess.
I also heard they are seeking some partnership with Delta Flight training in Florida... but that students haven't seen anything of it yet.
The lack of pilots will reach a peak by 2011-2012 and continue thereafter . Many are already securing their staff to cope with those problems: Air France and Netjets for instance have set up huge recruiting campaigns, BA are working closely with OAT,etc...
I hope this BFS-Ryanair deal goes through and that it is not just pure "student-keeping" policy, as you say, this might also be a possibility.
We'll know more in the next few months I guess.
Fly4hours, making the path to airline pilot affordable to all
A solution for Belgian Pilots?
If Geert Sciot, from Brussel Airlines Communications' department, is right they will probably ask the Belgian Gouvernment to reduce taxes on the salary of pilots like in France or Holland.
If Geert Sciot, from Brussel Airlines Communications' department, is right they will probably ask the Belgian Gouvernment to reduce taxes on the salary of pilots like in France or Holland.
I hope he's right, that will satisfie a lot of Belgian pilots!'In Holland and France, the pilots earn brutto as much as in Belgium, but net they keep more than 30% of the Belgian pilots. That's why we're going to ask the new Belgian gouvernment to change those high taxes', said Mr. Sciot.
article: http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=22434 (in dutch)
Did he want you to remove his name because he didn't want to be qutoted saying BruAir will double the gross salaries to match Holland and France?Omikros wrote:A solution for Belgian Pilots?
If [edit: name censored as by personal request], from Brussel Airlines Communications' department, is right they will probably ask the Belgian Gouvernment to reduce taxes on the salary of pilots like in France or Holland.
I hope he's right, that will satisfie a lot of Belgian pilots!'In Holland and France, the pilots earn brutto as much as in Belgium, but net they keep more than 30% of the Belgian pilots. That's why we're going to ask the new Belgian gouvernment to change those high taxes', said Mr. [edit: name censored as by personal request].
article: http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=22434 (in dutch)
I did, I voted with my feet and it is MORE than double!LX-LGX wrote:Please feel free to go work in Holland or France, and cash in that double salary.fcw wrote:Did he want you to remove his name because he didn't want to be qutoted saying BruAir will double the gross salaries to match Holland and France?
So that explains all your anti-Brussels Airlines posts - and also how we have to regard them: you're working for the competition.fcw wrote:I did, I voted with my feet and it is MORE than double!LX-LGX wrote:Please feel free to go work in Holland or France, and cash in that double salary.fcw wrote:Did he want you to remove his name because he didn't want to be qutoted saying BruAir will double the gross salaries to match Holland and France?
I wouldn't call BruAir: "competition"LX-LGX wrote:So that explains all your anti-Brussels Airlines posts - and also how we have to regard them: you're working for the competition.fcw wrote:I did, I voted with my feet and it is MORE than double!LX-LGX wrote: Please feel free to go work in Holland or France, and cash in that double salary.
You are playing the man and not the ball LX, not your style...
The way you defend BruAir is pathetic for somebody who pretends not being a BruAir manager, I reminds me even of that Iraqi minister of information!
BACK ON TOPIC:
I am still very concerned about a lot of friends working for them though, and I would be happy if a solution could be found for belgian pilots.The low gross salaries are an important part of the problem. Denying this and only blaming taxes will not help the pilots, that is what I was trying to say in my post.
If you are working in Holland or France, Brussels Airlines is competition to your actual employer. And thus to you.fcw wrote:I wouldn't call BruAir: "competition".
The managers from Brussels Airlines are all gone here because every post about their airline ends up with you (or one of your companions) bashing the airline. Actually, I've always been at the other side: buying tickets, spending time at the check-in desk, sitting in the back of the plane, talking to (cabin) crew, negociating with Sales, ... I'm not defending Brussels Airlines: I'm replying to the nonsense that others write about that airline.fcw wrote:The way you defend BruAir is pathetic for somebody who pretends not being a BruAir manager, I reminds me even of that Iraqi minister of information!.
The webmaster knows I have never been a SN or DAT or whatever-airline employer. I'm sure he would correct this if I was lying.
Talking about Iraq's ministry of information, this one can count. The gross salary is totally irrelevant here. It's the nett salary that counts for the pilots. And for the airline, it's the total salary cost, thus gross plus all additional social charges. The calculation has been done before: a Ryanair-pilot earns nett about the double of a Brussels Airlines-pilot, but the total salary cost for Brussels Airlines is more expensive then at Ryanair.fcw wrote:The low gross salaries are an important part of the problem. Denying this and only blaming taxes will not help the pilots, that is what I was trying to say in my post.
So far, most pilots here only kick around, bash management, bash government, insult luchtzak-members who disagree with them. Pilots must show arrogance in the cockpit = it's good everybody on board knows they are in charge, they are the only captain on the ship, they take the decisions. However, it's a pity that this arrogance isn't staying in the cockpit when you're on the ground. Only when you and your previous colluegues start to understand (like AEA by the way) that a solution only can come from the governement, there's a way out. Instead of insulting management that they have to increase gross salaries, you should join forces with them to obtain a tax friendly solution from the government.
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.a Ryanair-pilot earns nett about the double of a Brussels Airlines-pilot, but the total salary cost for Brussels Airlines is more expensive then at Ryanair
We think that we all know that Belgium has very expensive tax policies, but this is a wrong information:
Ryanair:
Eurozone nett salaries
Captains
Up to €130,000
First Officers (1,500 hrs)
Up to €80,000
B.air:
Captains
Up to €72000
First Officers
Up to €36000
You want the netjet figures too?
Forget about it, it is 15 years now that student-pilots have been paying VAT on their training, without the governement doing anything about it.you should join forces with them to obtain a tax friendly solution from the government.
If that is so difficult to regulate, then a tax-scale review is not for this era.
Last edited by FLY4HOURS.BE on 08 Oct 2007, 18:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Netjets:
Starting basic salary for year 0 pilots
Rank Starting salary
Captain – PIC €95,000
First Officer – SIC €56,500
Per diems
Both Captains and First Officers will receive €70 per work day. This covers all duty days that the pilot is away from home including training, standby and positioning days.
Captain (PIC)
Years of Service at rank CPS bonus
Year 3 and 4 = €3,000
Year 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 = €6,000
Year 10, 11, 12 + = €10,000
First officer (SIC)
Years of Service at rank CPS bonus
Year 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 + = €1,500
The pilot’s contractual entitlement is for 187 days off per year. This consists of 165 days off and 22 days annual leave.
http://www.netjetseurope.com/data/eng/p ... efits.html
Starting basic salary for year 0 pilots
Rank Starting salary
Captain – PIC €95,000
First Officer – SIC €56,500
Per diems
Both Captains and First Officers will receive €70 per work day. This covers all duty days that the pilot is away from home including training, standby and positioning days.
Captain (PIC)
Years of Service at rank CPS bonus
Year 3 and 4 = €3,000
Year 5, 6, 7, 8 and 9 = €6,000
Year 10, 11, 12 + = €10,000
First officer (SIC)
Years of Service at rank CPS bonus
Year 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 + = €1,500
The pilot’s contractual entitlement is for 187 days off per year. This consists of 165 days off and 22 days annual leave.
http://www.netjetseurope.com/data/eng/p ... efits.html
Fly4hours, making the path to airline pilot affordable to all
Here we go again. As usual, you react to my post without having read it. Actually, you're saying I'm giving "wrong information", but your information on the nett salaries is simply confirming my post (that is, if we agree that 13.000 is about the double of 7.200). But then, off course, you are once again trying to discuss about something that is not the issue here: the nett salary. The reason why it's impossible for Brussels Airlines to increase the nett is because of the total salary cost (gross plus the extremely high additional social charges). So do your homework again: start with the nett salaries and then calculate the total salary cost. Repeat: do not calculate the gross salary, that's nice to know but not relevant here.FLY4HOURS.BE wrote:.a Ryanair-pilot earns nett about the double of a Brussels Airlines-pilot, but the total salary cost for Brussels Airlines is more expensive then at Ryanair
We think that we all know that Belgium has very expensive tax policies, but this is a wrong information ...
I've already done it, and guess what: total salary cost for a Brussels Airlines pilot, earning 7.300 nett is a bit higher then for a Ryanair-pilot, earning 13.000 nett.