Brussels Airlines fleet renewal: announcement next summer.

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

sn-remember
Posts: 848
Joined: 13 Sep 2004, 00:00
Location: Jodoigne/Geldenaken
Contact:

Post by sn-remember »

tolipanebas wrote: Rather than do this fleet renewal plan inhouse, maybe they sould get some external help from reputated fleet planning consultants (SQ has the facility and I know LH too helps with consultancing), because I fear their is not enough skills at SN to fully see the big picture which is awaiting them:
Wise suggestion tolipanebas.
But most obviously (and most unfortunately) they will not follow it.

Let me quote Richard Hill from his famous book "We Europeans" (p.169)

"Most Belgians, both Flemish and Walloons, seem to think they know everything there is to know and don't need help from anyone, thank you - particularly when it costs real money. The Dutch, by comparison, are not too dogmatic to seek a third-party opinion and not too mean to pay for it. So much for the stereotypes.
Yet what no one will argue with is the frugality of the Dutch ...."


And this is certainly one reason more why sabena failed, why brussels airlines performs pityfully and why klm succeeds among the best.

LX-LGX
Posts: 2004
Joined: 20 Jan 2004, 00:00
Location: ANR

Post by LX-LGX »

tolipanebas wrote:Rather than do this fleet renewal plan inhouse, maybe they sould get some external help from reputated fleet planning consultants (SQ has the facility and I know LH too helps with consultancing), because I fear their is not enough skills at SN to fully see the big picture which is awaiting them.
sn-remember wrote: Wise suggestion tolipanebas. But most obviously (and most unfortunately) they will not follow it.
Don't worry guys. Contrary to what you're constantly making us believe, there are more people at SN who are skilled and who know their job then just the cockpit crew.

You are indeed excellent in "...provide to the management and colleagues all relevant information and analysis in order to support the decision process and to help the evaluation of performances in full compliance with company's strategies and policies..." This is indeed the profile of a Business and Performance Analyst. Take a look at the qualifications SN is asking for this job: looks good, if I may say so.
http://www.cvwarehouse.com/brusselsairl ... px?id=3709

flyavro
Posts: 37
Joined: 17 Aug 2006, 09:57
Location: belgium

Post by flyavro »

jippy another manager on the way!!!

I'd think with all those we already have maybe there would have been one who has the brains to do this job correctly.

LX you're right us cockpit crews aren't the only ones who are skilled: there's also the cabin crew and technicians and the guys at OCC because with all these airplanes getting technicals all the time they have a heck of a job and I'm sure most people at their desks are more than skilled at what they are doing. The only group of people I specifically exclude from this list are most of our managers.

And I'm sure you have a lot of good friends in this category but if they were really so good why are we still doing the same things we did four years ago and doing even worse at it for that matter?

I can tell you that a lot of effort has already been put into the fleet renewal (yes even by pilots, who by the way know a little bit about planes) but nothing serious has come of it due to a single big reason: we don't have no money!

So I'm sorry if I'm not buying it but I don't think we'll be seeing a lot of new planes in the near future (please B.A. prove me wrong). Oh yeah and the 4th 330 isn't a new plane, it's the most cheap one they could find who isn't been actively used for spares (and even about that we're not sure)

And please stop this stupid pilot-bashing it's rather childish
runway in sight, going for the visual

Air Key West
Posts: 1107
Joined: 23 Jun 2007, 20:51
Location: BRU

Post by Air Key West »

Dear Flyavro, I think you're right. And since I still occasionally fly b.air, I am grateful to the pilots that are staying, but I understand those switching to other airlines. Anyone who can get better working and pay conditions elsewhere will be tempted to move to a new employer. B.Air pilots are generally speaking doing a good job and from what I hear, they have one of lowest pays in the industry. And even so, the airline isn't making any substantial profits.
I also agree that it is unlikely we'll see new planes at b.air since there is no money. The first BAe146s arrived at the end of 1996, followed by the Avrojets. So, most of these planes are about then years old (I don't know about the B737s). And I bet b.air is going to keep them for another then years (at least if they stay in business)unless they convince an aircraft manufacturer to offer them a good deal (which would include a lot of financial credit). The only manufacturer which might (I stress MIGHT) be willing to do that is probably Sukhoi as they MIGHT be keen on selling planes to Western airlines. I personally don't mind travelling in a modern Russian aircraft.
Would you have reservations as to flying them, Flyavro ?
In favor of quality air travel.

LX-LGX
Posts: 2004
Joined: 20 Jan 2004, 00:00
Location: ANR

Post by LX-LGX »

flyavro wrote:And please stop this stupid pilot-bashing it's rather childish
And please stop this stupid management-bashing it's rather childish.

brussels airlines
Posts: 97
Joined: 10 Jan 2007, 16:51
Contact:

Post by brussels airlines »

It seems that on this forum we have a lot of great managers. Why don't you all go to The Corporate Village ask Mr. Van Der Putten if you can get a job as CEO.
Buying or leasing new aircrafts can have disastrous consequenses.

I remember well what happend when another Belgian airline orderd more than 30 modern Airbusses.

flyavro
Posts: 37
Joined: 17 Aug 2006, 09:57
Location: belgium

Post by flyavro »

yes and so can having a lot of aircraft who're stuck with technicals all the time.

We're not talking about buying 30 new aircraft on top of the ones we have now.

about management/pilot bashing: give me an example of a cockpit crew screwing up or making stupid mistakes and I'll give you a few more of our friends in the office. We get fired if we make big mistakes, they get transferred to another plush job in the company.

The days of Kuijpers and Davies with their "accountability-rules" are long over.
runway in sight, going for the visual

teach
Posts: 740
Joined: 23 Feb 2005, 00:00

Post by teach »

The first BAe146s arrived at the end of 1996, followed by the Avrojets.
Make that 1990. The first Avros arrived at the end of 1995.

teddybAIR
Posts: 1602
Joined: 02 Mar 2004, 00:00
Location: Steenokkerzeel
Contact:

Post by teddybAIR »

flyavro wrote:about management/pilot bashing: give me an example of a cockpit crew screwing up or making stupid mistakes and I'll give you a few more of our friends in the office. We get fired if we make big mistakes, they get transferred to another plush job in the company.
OMG :shock: I've seldomly seen such scepticism in the capabilities of a management team. I'm always open to a critical view on existing problems and heavily support diversity in order to spur a more efficient decision making, but on the very condition that the discussion remains constructive! Now, the only thing I read throughout this whole thread is critique! Not one handshake or tap on the shoulder, not one "congratulations for the past 5 years"...ok, should we simply close the d*mn thing then? I don't think so...c'mon people: it's a forum...let's engage in constuctive dialogues!

Constructive regards,
Tom

LX-LGX
Posts: 2004
Joined: 20 Jan 2004, 00:00
Location: ANR

Post by LX-LGX »

Some people call SN's fleet old - others call it very old. So I've asked airfleets.net the age of some other carriers.

code - airline - number of planes - average age

EZ Easyjet - 123 - 2,5
FR Ryanair - 137 - 2,9
EY Etihad - 26 - 3,4
9W Jet Airways - 64 - 5,2
BD bmi British Midland - 42 - 5,6
LG Luxair - 14 - 5,8
VS Virgin Atlantic - 37 - 5,9
SQ Singapore Airlines - 110 - 6,6
SA South African - 54 - 6,9
SN only SN’s A319 - 3 - 6,9
SU Aeroflot - 43 - 6,9
BE Flybe - 81 - 7,2
CL Lufthansa Cityline - 78 - 7,3
LO LOT - 39 - 7,7
OS Austrian - 32 - 7,8
IB Iberia - 141 - 8,2
AF Air France - 256 - 8,9
TP TAP Air Portugal - 51 - 10,0
KL KLM - 106 - 10,2
AT Royal Air Maroc - 40 - 10,7
QF Qantas - 125 - 10,8
NW Northwest Airlines - 272 - 10,9
BA British Airways - 234 - 11,0
FQ Thomas Cook Airl. - 6 - 11,1
SN only SN’s BAe/Avro - 32 - 11,2
SN Brussels Airlines - 49 - 11,5
US US Airways - 349 - 12,0
LH Lufthansa - 263 - 12,3
WW bmibaby - 21 - 12,8
SN only SN’s 737 - 10 - 12,9
UA United Airlines - 398 - 13,0
AZ Alitalia - 149 - 13,2
SN only SN’s A330 - 4 - 13,4
TB Jetairfly - 8 - 13,4
DL Delta Airlines - 437 - 13,5
AA American Airlines - 670 - 14,3
HN KLM Cityhopper - 55 - 14,5
VG VLM - 19 - 17,7
3V TNT - ( ) - ( )

(I haven't checked if the number of planes on airlleets.net is correct)
Last edited by LX-LGX on 16 Aug 2007, 16:58, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Airbus330lover
Posts: 883
Joined: 21 Jul 2005, 00:00
Location: Rixensart

Post by Airbus330lover »

Do you have the average for the entire fleet?
Biggest problem in the public opinion are AVROS.
they are NOT old, but people seems tho forget that they were other manufacturers than AIRBUS BOEING EMBRAER ETC....
It's pure subjective opinion

User avatar
fokker_f27
Posts: 1812
Joined: 19 Nov 2005, 00:00
Location: Weerde, Zemst - Belgium

Post by fokker_f27 »

I think if one of they types would have to be replaced, it would have to be the Avros. Not just public opinion, but 4 engines = high fuel consumption and probably high maintenance costs, though I'm not sure of about that (any mechanics in the house?)
The most sexy girl in the sky: The Sud-Est Caravelle 12.

User avatar
Gliderpilot
Posts: 157
Joined: 14 Jun 2007, 11:56
Contact:

Post by Gliderpilot »

Airbus330lover: it's also in the list, total fleet age: 11,5 years.

And it's actually surprising to me that the 330's are the oldest plane-family in the fleet...

teddybAIR
Posts: 1602
Joined: 02 Mar 2004, 00:00
Location: Steenokkerzeel
Contact:

Post by teddybAIR »

The only cost that matters is not the fuel cost, operating cost, maintenance cost, etc. It's the sum of all, during the full lifetime of the plane: the total cost of ownership (TCO)! That is the only cost that matters in the end!

I didn't say that cost is the only critirium tough: it is one of many, but as far as costs are concerned, in my opinion, only the TCO matters

spotter1102

Post by spotter1102 »

Gliderpilot wrote:Airbus330lover: it's also in the list, total fleet age: 11,5 years.

And it's actually surprising to me that the 330's are the oldest plane-family in the fleet...
Because Brussels Airlines can only afford second-hand planes :wink:

User avatar
Gliderpilot
Posts: 157
Joined: 14 Jun 2007, 11:56
Contact:

Post by Gliderpilot »

Yes, i know...

But if you make a fast calculation: august 2007 - 13,4 = early 1994. And if you know the A330 has only EIS in '94, these planes are quite old...

User avatar
sab319
Posts: 2142
Joined: 29 Nov 2003, 00:00
Location: Mortsel, antwerp, Flanders, Belgium, Europe, Earth, Milky way
Contact:

Post by sab319 »

Gliderpilot wrote:Yes, i know...

But if you make a fast calculation: august 2007 - 13,4 = early 1994. And if you know the A330 has only EIS in '94, these planes are quite old...
Well SN does have the 3 oldest A330-300's in passenger service (the 3 ex Air Inter birds where delivered as first A330's iirc)

http://www.planespotters.net/Production ... 0/030.html

http://www.planespotters.net/Production ... 0/037.html

http://www.planespotters.net/Production ... 0/045.html

http://www.planespotters.net/Production ... 0/082.html

User avatar
fokker_f27
Posts: 1812
Joined: 19 Nov 2005, 00:00
Location: Weerde, Zemst - Belgium

Post by fokker_f27 »

sab319 wrote:
Gliderpilot wrote:Yes, i know...

But if you make a fast calculation: august 2007 - 13,4 = early 1994. And if you know the A330 has only EIS in '94, these planes are quite old...
Well SN does have the 3 oldest A330-300's in passenger service (the 3 ex Air Inter birds where delivered as first A330's iirc)

http://www.planespotters.net/Production ... 0/030.html

http://www.planespotters.net/Production ... 0/037.html

http://www.planespotters.net/Production ... 0/045.html

http://www.planespotters.net/Production ... 0/082.html
According, to Airfleets.net, 2 Cathay birds are older still (MSN 12 and MSN 17. These are followed by these aircraft (MSN 30, 37, 45). These where the 3 first production models, though.
The most sexy girl in the sky: The Sud-Est Caravelle 12.

Air Key West
Posts: 1107
Joined: 23 Jun 2007, 20:51
Location: BRU

Post by Air Key West »

Let's be honest : the average age of b.air's fleet is not old; It is within the industry average. Some pax may think the aircraft are old, because in some of them, the seats are completely worn out. But wasn't I on an Avrojet recently where the worn out leather seats had been replaced by synthetic (plastic) covered (cheap) seats ?
In favor of quality air travel.

Air Key West
Posts: 1107
Joined: 23 Jun 2007, 20:51
Location: BRU

Post by Air Key West »

And from the outside, the Avrojets don't look very sexy. That does not help. You're right Fokker_f27, the sexiest girl in the sky is still the Caravelle (only, we don't see her anymore :cry: )
In favor of quality air travel.

Post Reply