KLM+Belgian airlines having difficult times finding pilots

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 03 May 2007, 23:45

According to Het Laatste Nieuws, KLM have difficult times finding staff.

The article states that the elevated training price of 117000€ (I assume it is at KLM Academy) is oftenly the barrier to the cockpit.
On top of that, the job of pilot is not a "boy's dreamjob" anymore and is loosing popularity among young students.
Moreover they expect to be needing around 1000 more pilots in the next 9 years (KLM employs 2500 pilots at this moment).

Sabena Flight Academy asks 87000€ in Belgium for about the same training (as KLS actually uses SFA's Scottsdale base and planes for training) which though remains a fairly high price for the average student and household.
Other local schools such as BAFA, CAG, Hub'air, BFS and EFA ask between 55000 and 75000€ though your chances of being hired will be reduced compared to SFA.

Though Belgian politicians are fully aware of this problem, they keep denying it and keep applying hard 21% VAT policies to all the trainings.
They clearly are not aware of the imminent lack of pilots in the near-future.

I know a few people working hard day and night to realise their goal.
In the mean time politicians walk around in beautiful costums, ride on BMW-7's swinging around with tax-payer money.

Someone has to do something about this.

peacemaker · Post by **peacemaker** » 04 May 2007, 06:56

Someone has to do something about this.

couldn't say it better

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 04 May 2007, 22:39

We are looking for the possibility to start a petition against it soon.

We will certainly be looking for at least 500 signatures, but aim to go over the 1000 to increase the attention, and try to put the media in it.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 12 May 2007, 09:25

Piloten verlaten Belgische luchtvaartmaatschappijen

Brussels Airlines, VLM Airlines en andere Belgische luchtvaartmaatschappijen verenigd in de Belgian Air Transport Associaton (BATA) kampen met een chronisch tekort aan piloten.

Elk jaar vertrekt meer dan 10 procent naar concurrenten als de Ierse budgetvlieger Ryanair en Netjets, een zakenjetmaatschappij met Portugese licentie. Het Indiase Jet Airways gaat 150 piloten aanwerven, vooral in ons land.

Al die piloten verdienen netto een pak meer bij hun nieuwe broodheren dan bij hun Belgische werkgever omdat in die landen een gunstiger fiscaal regime geldt. Bovendien kunnen ze hier blijven wonen: Ryanair heeft een basis in Charleroi, Jet Airways maakt van Zaventem zijn Europees knooppunt. "De toestand is zeer ernstig", zegt een betrokkene. (belga)

Translation:

Belgian airlines are encountering difficulties finding pilots because of the low salaries they offer. Yearly 10% of the pilots of Belgian Airlines leave their company to work for foreign airlines such as Ryanair and Netjets. Pilots don't bother as working for a foreign airline does not mean that they need to move: Ryanair has a base in Charleroi, Jet Airways will be "based" in Brussels.
The situation is critical they say.

Jet Airways will hire 150 pilots in Belgium.

FlyA330 · Post by **FlyA330** » 12 May 2007, 10:55

Many will follow if EasyJet will start flying from Brussels.
Which Belgian pilot wants to fly as a captain for around 3500€ net for a Belgian airline (and being treated as an expensive number in the company) if you can earn at least double and live where you want? I did the same 2 years ago; I left (SN) Brussels Airlines for NetJets, still live in Belgium, earn a very good salary and have a nice working regime and -environment. I didn't regret it a minute!!

If you pay sh*t, you get sh*t!!

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 12 May 2007, 13:32

FlyA330 wrote:
Which Belgian pilot wants to fly as a captain for around 3500€ net for a Belgian airline (and being treated as an expensive number in the company)? If you pay sh*t, you get sh*t!!

What we need in Belgium is a new generation of pilots who accept that a salary of 7.000 euro gross per month is a very nice salary. And we need a new generation of pilots who understand that it's not employer's fault that he has deduct twice social security charges and high taxes.

Although: if 10 % leaves, 90 % doens't.

FlightMate · Post by **FlightMate** » 12 May 2007, 15:18

10% a year...

So indeed, 90% stay the first year...
But after 5 years, 50% of your initial bunch is gone. (I don't think only new recruits are leaving)

Darjeeling · Post by **Darjeeling** » 12 May 2007, 15:23

LX-LGX wrote:
FlyA330 wrote:
Which Belgian pilot wants to fly as a captain for around 3500€ net for a Belgian airline (and being treated as an expensive number in the company)? If you pay sh*t, you get sh*t!!
What we need in Belgium is a new generation of pilots who accept that a salary of 7.000 euro gross per month is a very nice salary. And we need a new generation of pilots who understand that it's not employer's fault that he has deduct twice social security charges and high taxes.

Although: if 10 % leaves, 90 % doens't.

What you say LX is pure bs. The truth is that Belgian aviation has fallen ages behind what it is now in Netherlands, UK, Germany, France and all the rest of Europe. This shortage will become a major issue within 5 years and AGAIN Belgium will loose its competitiveness. Belgian pilots with a good type rating can find a job where they want as long as they are willing to move.
As said above: If you treat like sh*t, pay like sh*t, you get sh*t. And don't take junior pilots for idiots, they know the wage reality of worldwide civil aviation like others... Dj.

FlyA330 · Post by **FlyA330** » 12 May 2007, 15:31

Although: if 10 % leaves, 90 % doens't.

At this moment...But it will be more when, in the future, EasyJet will recruit for Brussels and when Jet Airways will start their hub over there. Then a pilot can live in Belgium but earn double and be legal with the taxes.
When I speak to my foreign colleages they are all surprised that the salary of a pilot is so low in Belgium. When I started as an ab-initio 10 years ago (non-Sabena), I earned more than an ab-initio who is starting today AND I didn't have to pay for my type-rating and another €100'000 for my CPL with froozen ATPL. Is that normal? How can they still live; pay the loan to the bank, rent a house or apartment, a car, etc...
I really think the airlines in Belgium have to change their way of thinking. They will have to threat their pilots better or soon they will only have 1500hrs Captains and 250 hrs FO's while pilots with experience are all gone.

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 12 May 2007, 15:52

FlightMate wrote:10% a year...

So indeed, 90% stay the first year... But after 5 years, 50% of your initial bunch is gone. (I don't think only new recruits are leaving)

I once had a jump seat just behind one of your "new recreats". Honestly, I was quite impressed.

- - -

Every company in every branch has a percentage of "go-away's": employees who are moving, retiring, medically unable, some deceases, total change from branch, and off course leaving to competition. But it's indeed a fact that there is no possibility for a Belgian carrier to do what, for example, a transport company can do: engage 100 Polish truck drivers within one week.

- - -

The solution could come from the Belgian Minister of Finance, who can clearly announce that no exception will be made for Belgian pilots, flying with a foreign contract but still living in Belgium and working relevant labour time in Belgium (dep first flight, arr last flight).

European law indeed states that social charges and taxes on labour must be paid according to the law of the country where the labour is done.

The only exception I know are the "grensarbeiders" ("border-employees"): people who live near the border, and who work at 5 kms on the other side of the border.

fly · Post by **fly** » 12 May 2007, 16:50

then I will just move to another country and airlines in belgium will go bancrupt because every 3 years they need to change pilots.(huge cost)
Aviation is international, pilots are international and are living to international standards .
If you don't like it become a pilot and fly the belgian aircraft yourself.

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 12 May 2007, 17:38

FlyA330 wrote:
Is that normal? How can they still live; pay the loan to the bank, rent a house or apartment, a car, etc...

I will not getting involved in this discussion but I want to give a example in my neighborhoud.

1) You have to admit that the costs of a pilots training is mostly paid by their parents.

2) The majority of the Belgian people have to pay for their house, car, etc. If they can do that, why pilots don't.

3) I have several pilots in my neighborhoud living in new build, very big houses with two or three cars in their garages and in front of it. Not "common" cars, no, cabrio's, 4x4, etc. And every week or two weeks a party in their garden. And do you know what, they all fly FOR A BELGIAN CARRIER. So, I don't think they have a bad salary. A lot of people has to do with more then less. Think about that instead of crying because you don't have every month 10.000 euro's on your account.

FlightMate · Post by **FlightMate** » 12 May 2007, 17:51

You have to admit that the costs of a pilots training is mostly paid by their parents.

Hum I know a loooot of guys who paid from their own pocket (that means: taking a loan - 80.000€ for 10 years - around 850€ a month to reimburse for 10 years...)

So after 10 years, eventually they will be able to get a mortgage and finally buy a house...

1V1 · Post by **1V1** » 12 May 2007, 18:36

To LX-LGX

Strange solutions you have to resolve a pilots shortage. Make them pay more tax!?! They would just move a few hundred km, wouldn't they? They're quite flexible.

Imagine some day a company offers you twice your actual salary would you take it?

Free market....and Belgium is a very small country.

Kind regards

haflinger · Post by **haflinger** » 12 May 2007, 18:50

Lot of jealousy!!! (LX and Atlantis)

I can see many reasons for a high salary;
-expensive training (rarely paid by parents),
-risk (not crash), but the risk of loosing your medical (yes it happens!!!)
-time away
-Respondability
-...

Atlantis, your work in the office of a well-known freight company, you know the pilots you're talking about don't represent the other pilots, they have management respondabilities in that company and have a good salary. This is not the case for everybody in your company!

For example a VLM copilot earns about 2500€ gross a month and has a flight pay of 300€/month
----------------------> 1800€/monts nett!
If you deduce the loan for the training (600 to 800€ per months for 8-10years...), it 's hard to finish the month.

If you're jalous, it's never too late to start flying!

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 12 May 2007, 18:58

1) You have to admit that the costs of a pilots training is mostly paid by their parents.

2) The majority of the Belgian people have to pay for their house, car, etc. If they can do that, why pilots don't.

3) I have several pilots in my neighborhoud living in new build, very big houses with two or three cars in their garages and in front of it. Not "common" cars, no, cabrio's, 4x4, etc. And every week or two weeks a party in their garden. And do you know what, they all fly FOR A BELGIAN CARRIER. So, I don't think they have a bad salary. A lot of people has to do with more then less. Think about that instead of crying because you don't have every month 10.000 euro's on your account.

Atlantis,with respect to your long membership and your many contributions, I reject your last post.

1)I can state myself as a guy paying for his training all by himself, investing most of my earned salary at my full-time job. I know other 3 people doing the same... We don t take out loans but pay every module CASH. We get no time to build a life...

2)Many pilots and pilot's parents take out a loan. This loan formula at Sabena Flight Academy is as high as 1000€ per month for 12 years.(It's not the 90000€ member Flightmate mentionned but about 125000€ you will pay back net to the bank with interests).
As a cadet at BRU AIR you own about 1300€/month net for the first years.
Buy an old Opel Corsa to get to your work, and you won't have enough for food...

3)You mentionned pilots living wealthy with great cars, beautiful houses.
Well, maybe that's because their parents are already rich, and that they are wealthy from their birth. That is much easier than a middle-class guy with a dream looking for the job of his dream.

If at least governement could support us a little (tax reductions, no VAT).
If trainings were cheaper, we wouldn't bother being payed less as at least we will feel thankful for the services and opportunity our country will have offered to us.
The new generation of pilots is mostly ok with that, I think.

FLY4HOURS.BE · Post by **FLY4HOURS.BE** » 12 May 2007, 19:13

Haflinger,
I agree with you on most of the points, certainly about the medical.
I've seen some colleague pilots getting restrictions on their licences, others being told they can not become airline pilots anymore because of a contracted disease or handicap (Yes, if you have AIDS, tuberculosis, heart disease, neurological disease, worthened visual accuity, any middle to major scale handicap.......) your medical will be scrapped.

I've heard about a guy that nearly finished his CPL and got involved in a car crash, and had to abandon his dream...

1V1 · Post by **1V1** » 12 May 2007, 20:07

If a LCC like Ryanair or Ezy cuts cost everywhere except in the salary of their pilots it must be for a good reason.
Belgian pilots had no need to go abroad until a few years ago. Then SN went bankrupt and they had no choice but to look for a job outside Belgium. Many of them where succesfull in building up a new carreer, that made it attractive for others to follow their example. I expect the outflow will only grow because Indian, Far East and ME carriers are expanding at a fenominal rate and need qualified pilots to keep their planes in the air. Furthermore they are willing to pay the price to attract those people with good salary and extra packages. Because even then they can not find enough pilots those carriers are opening hubs in Europe, Australië and the US (Cathay,JetA,Ethiad soon, etc...).

The biggest cost in the future will not be the fuel price but the cost to find qualified personel said a spokesman of a wellknown company and he might be right.

I'd rather be a passenger in a plane flown by a wellpaid pilot than a pilot with the burden of financial troubles. Some people think pilots are paid to fly the plane. Not anymore. They're paid to manage and take action when needed and as an aircraft is a very expensive tool and passengers thrust their lifes to the pilot the companies are willing to pay for this because they do not want to take any risk.

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 12 May 2007, 20:14

haflinger wrote: For example a VLM copilot earns about 2500€ gross a month and has a flight pay of 300€/month
----------------------> 1800€/monts nett!

Well 2500€ gross per month for a starter is quite good !! How many jobs are paid that good for young starters coming from school ? Not that many !!

prutserke · Post by **prutserke** » 12 May 2007, 20:21

From what I know out of my own experience, a lot of cabin crew left Belgian aircarriers because of the strange childish treatment crew gets here.

First have a look at what s happening at the former staff of SNBA and those of VEX. If experience of senior crew isn't considered important (contracts, wages, ... ) well find a solution to keep them in Belgium. Or will they have to sign a new agreement that they won't work elsewhere for the following years (as new pilots often have to do?)

I left in 2002 and I m happy together some 700 Belgians at my company, but I know LH, AF, EK, JAL, PTI, BA (the original BA) and so on are very greedy in getting Belgian flight attendants. The same for the pilots...

I wish all Belgian colleagues working at Belgian working conditions good luck and a lot of courage... I had fun but aviation in Belgium isn't the carreer anymore what it was... and I even don't mention those working for the charter airlines... they fly their 100 hours easily in the summertime. (Flying 110 hours in 30 days is a maximum following the BCAA)

Squeeze a lemon and you'll get some nice tasty juice...
Squeeze a squeezed lemon and you'll get nothing anymore...

P.

Aviation24.be

KLM+Belgian airlines having difficult times finding pilots

KLM+Belgian airlines having difficult times finding pilots

Belgian Airlines having difficult times finding pilots

and nobody knows how many well trained cabin staff left B.