Troubles at Brussels Airlines ?

SN30952 · Post by **SN30952** » 28 Mar 2007, 13:44

LX-LGX wrote:Brussels Airlines will now appeal against that verdict, and the Appeal Labour Court will then rule .....

Here is what such ARB's do.
btw there is no verdict is such courts but an 'arrest or arrêt'. In French.
The definitions in both languages show the different approaches in Belgium, where Justice is still a federal matter.

Zenfookpower · Post by **Zenfookpower** » 28 Mar 2007, 14:58

In trying to understand all the previous posts on the subject, do I have it right that the "new" Brussels Airlines might go the way the old Sabena went ??
Is this because of labor/union laws or because of "union mentality"..
Thanks for continuing in English..

fcw · Post by **fcw** » 29 Mar 2007, 00:51

Zenfookpower wrote:In trying to understand all the previous posts on the subject, do I have it right that the "new" Brussels Airlines might go the way the old Sabena went ??
Is this because of labor/union laws or because of "union mentality"..
Thanks for continuing in English..

None of both Zenfook, if they go the same way, it will be because managers are more concerned about their own job. An example: 2 AOC's for one company because if they go on 1 AOC half of the posholders will loose their job.
At the end Sabena had 150 managers for a fleet of 75 planes...

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 29 Mar 2007, 17:02

fcw wrote:
None of both Zenfook, if they go the same way, it will be because managers are more concerned about their own job. An example: 2 AOC's for one company because if they go on 1 AOC half of the posholders will loose their job. At the end Sabena had 150 managers for a fleet of 75 planes...

And if Management moves 1 of the 2 AOC's to another position, that one goes to court because it's against the CAO (general labour agreement)...

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 29 Mar 2007, 20:58

The Labour Court has accepted the appeal by Brussels Airlines, and there will now be a final verdict on 6th April.

In today's judgment, the daily fine of 5.000 euro has been waived / postponed till that final judgment.

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 29 Mar 2007, 22:59

LX-LGX wrote:The Labour Court has accepted the appeal by Brussels Airlines, and there will now be a final verdict on 6th April.

In today's judgment, the daily fine of 5.000 euro has been waived / postponed till that final judgment.

This is quite a strange reading of events I must say...

Reality is the court has decided to POSTPONE the hearing of Brussels Airlines till April 6th and until that day the fines are not CLAIMABLE.

This means the original court ruling still stands, but the unions can not knock on the door of the SN management to ask for the fines to be paid...

http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Detail. ... 032007_133

My bet is there will be an agreement singed between the Unions and the management BEFORE April 6th, in which SN will have to offer their crews something substantial return for the 30 min turn arounds, because it is in the interest of both parties to move this case out of court and because SN knows that legally they are in very swampy grounds...

LX-LGX · Post by **LX-LGX** » 30 Mar 2007, 03:21

tolipanebas wrote:
This is quite a strange reading of events I must say... Reality is the court has decided to POSTPONE the hearing of Brussels Airlines till April 6th and until that day the fines are not CLAIMABLE.

In his judgment from last Tuesday, the court was not ALLOWED to judge if the decision on the 10 minutes is or isn't against the CAO. In a "eenvoudig verzoekschrift in kortgeding" (unilateral urgent request to court), the court was only allowed to judge if the request from the unions was urgent and if there are enough reasonable grounds to assume it's against the CAO. That's all: urgent and with reasonable grounds.

Today's judgement states that Brussels Airlines has enough arguments to counter at least one of the two conditions of last Tuesday's judgment: the appeal thus has well been accepted. One could say that the fine of 5.000 euro is postponed till 6th April, but that's like discussing if a glass is half full or half empty. Fact is that it is half.

In the judgment of 6th April, the judge must take in mind both party's point of views, but only from the same two references: urgent and with reasonable grounds. The court will then probably state that the discussion about the 10 minutes is impossible in a short trial, and the debate has to be done through a standard procedure at a Labour Court.

No matter who wins this: the damage has been done, both for Brussels Airlines' corporate image to passengers as for the labour relations between management and unions.

foxtrot_lima_yankee · Post by **foxtrot_lima_yankee** » 30 Mar 2007, 06:06

I agree on recent disorder being serious issues, but some people start saying that unions lead to Sabena's bankruptcy.
Well I might be wrong but I thought it was Swissair that gave Sabena a ride to hell. Okay unions have contributed to this happening, but that wasn t the main cause!!
Unions are important to keep good promises between companies and employees.
I m not that worried, SN people will complain now, but they just need some time to forget SN and start loving Brussels Airlines. It s like switching lovers,...you need time to forget your old life and some more to adapt yourself to your new life 8)
Virgin people are happy already because BA looks pretty hard like Virgin.
They ll need less time to adapt.

b-west · Post by **b-west** » 30 Mar 2007, 09:42

foxtrot_lima_yankee wrote:I agree on recent disorder being serious issues, but some people start saying that unions lead to Sabena's bankruptcy.
Well I might be wrong but I thought it was Swissair that gave Sabena a ride to hell. Okay unions have contributed to this happening, but that wasn t the main cause!!
Unions are important to keep good promises between companies and employees.
I m not that worried, SN people will complain now, but they just need some time to forget SN and start loving Brussels Airlines. It s like switching lovers,...you need time to forget your old life and some more to adapt yourself to your new life 8)
Virgin people are happy already because BA looks pretty hard like Virgin.
They ll need less time to adapt.

Well, as said earlier, Sabena's bankruptcy had many fathers... Swissair being one of them, and most likely the most important, but certainly not the only one. Bad management, unions, politicians... you name it.

Airbus330lover · Post by **Airbus330lover** » 30 Mar 2007, 12:59

LX-LGX wrote: No matter who wins this: the damage has been done, both for Brussels Airlines' corporate image to passengers as for the labour relations between management and unions.

IMO this is the most important thing in this case.
Corporate image needs a lot of time to be constructed but only a short period to be destroyed.

VBS..... VERY BAD START

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 30 Mar 2007, 15:25

LX-LGX wrote:In the judgment of 6th April, the judge must take in mind both party's point of views, but only from the same two references: urgent and with reasonable grounds. The court will then probably state that the discussion about the 10 minutes is impossible in a short trial, and the debate has to be done through a standard procedure at a Labour Court.

Correct.

And in the mean time, the Belgian law says the current CLA (including the 40 min) stays valid, so SN still can not unilaterally move to shorten the turnarounds. If they do anyway, the fines will become claimable again...

Or are you suggesting the court will give SN some sort of waver to disregard the basic principle of law saying a CLA of undetermined duration can not be renounced from one day to another by one party, yet remains valid until a new one is singed???

Anyway, expect a settlement before April 6th, in which SN offers to pay their crews correctly for the serious increase in flexibility and productivity SN is after, just as SN have done with virtually all other categories of employees before...

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 30 Mar 2007, 15:38

Airbus330lover wrote:Corporate image needs a lot of time to be constructed but only a short period to be destroyed.
VBS..... VERY BAD START

And who's fault is that?

Management could have just followed the rules and negotiate a new CLA for flying staff in which they'd logically offer something substantial for the considerable increases in flexibility and productivety they are seeking from their crews, but no, they've preferred to go the path of direct confrontation by unilaterally renouncing all collective labour agreements and trying to enforce much less stringent rules with immediate effect for free...

Sadly for them, they "forgot" these kinds of jungle methods are illegal under Belgian law...

foxtrot_lima_yankee · Post by **foxtrot_lima_yankee** » 30 Mar 2007, 15:42

On the other hand, you can not approve the 40mins turnaround for only Ex-SN staff, while Ex-VEX staff will continue serving the 30 mins.
That would be unjustified and discriminating...

I agree on the image destroying thing, although I don t think many people around the globe have even heard about the actions. On the news pages, you really got to be looking for it to find it.
So until now, no big deal.

Airbus330lover · Post by **Airbus330lover** » 30 Mar 2007, 17:10

foxtrot_lima_yankee wrote: So until now, no big deal.

Until now...... but with the high quality of some journalists....
Error of the management until now OK but....
A lot of people don't understand why it's so a big problem for the persons of Brussels Airlines.
Everywhere and in other markets, you have to adapt to the new market (see VW ...., and not only in belgium!)
A customer of Brussels airlines can easy reserve a flight on another airline, only to avoid a possible strike. Once a customer is gone, ....... it costs a lot of efforts and money to re-attract him

Just my 2 cents

Coppelia · Post by **Coppelia** » 30 Mar 2007, 17:24

Airbus330lover,

Your point of view would have been understandable if crews had been on strike, refusing to fly, preferably just before Eastern school holidays like today, creating a big mess, but it didn't happen.

Passengers were informed at the check-in that b-light ones would not get any catering sale on board and had the opportunity to buy food and drink at the airport.

I did a few flights since Sunday, and no pax complained about the situation.

Quite funny, today all crews at b-house received a message from the Unions asking to restart the sales on board in b-light. VEX-cabin crew never stopped the sales...

Cicero · Post by **Cicero** » 30 Mar 2007, 17:28

VEX does not exist anymore!!!

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 30 Mar 2007, 17:30

Coppelia wrote: Quite funny, today all crews at b-house received a message from the Unions asking to restart the sales on board in b-light. VEX-cabin crew never stopped the sales...

You mean the the "no-sale action" was not only held on sunday but also the days after ? Just a clarification question ?

Chris

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 30 Mar 2007, 17:31

Cicero wrote:VEX does not exist anymore!!!

Indeed they should be called BAF crew

lol I prefer the name VEX :p

Coppelia · Post by **Coppelia** » 30 Mar 2007, 17:46

Cicero, if you didn't understand, I meant the ex-VEX crews, just to make things clearer.

Avro, no, the "ex-VEX" crews (sorry Cicero) didn't follow the action, as we get a bar commission already.

Flybe · Post by **Flybe** » 30 Mar 2007, 18:14

A customer of Brussels airlines can easy reserve a flight on another airline, only to avoid a possible strike. Once a customer is gone, ....... it costs a lot of efforts and money to re-attract him

Your point of view would have been understandable if crews had been on strike, refusing to fly, preferably just before Eastern school holidays like today, creating a big mess, but it didn't happen.

...

I did a few flights since Sunday, and no pax complained about the situation.

Even in this case, the point of Airbus330lover is understandable. A few people already listed in this topic that they (or their company) bought tickets at another company because of the expected delays (what happens if the timetable takes a 30min turnaround in concideration, but the real turnaround is 40min).

For those few that told it here in this topic, expect many more who didn't tell, but did the same.

As far as nobody is complaining: Lesson nr 1: A client will complain very little, he just changes if he has the chance to.

And as far as the extra compensation for the SN crew for the 30min turnaround, it is understandable. BUT what will happen next?: VEX crew will ask why they didn't get a "raise"... Compairing the 2 cao's, who were the best paid crews already? I think I heard somewhere it was SN crew that was already better paid, but I'm not sure. I would like some confirmation. Because you can't honestly expect VEX crews to be happy with a raise for SN crews, but not for them, if SN crews were already better paid. I can see it coming already... it isn't finished yet.

Greets,

Pieter