SN Brussels & Virgin Express towards a full merger

Buzz · Post by **Buzz** » 28 Jan 2006, 17:09

vc-10 wrote:If there is a train from BRU to CDG, how about putting SNBA pax on it aswell?
I don't know about engines, but SN, AF, LH and KLM all fly A330s in some form. These are very economic apparently, so these should give simmilar costs. Why are SNBA's routes less profitable? Because they use tiny Avros on European routes, with only a few A319s. KLM is huge, despite Holland being quite small. SN need to build their european route structure, to connect with the African flights. I am perfectly happy to transit through Brussels, if it saves me a bit.
I belive that BA are one of the most profitable airlines in the world, yet their short haul routes frequently operate at a loss. True, they fly 734s and 735s on some routes, and they would be better off with some A319s, but Passengers connect for long haul. On my flight to Cayman, 20% of passengers were not British or Caymanian, so I presume they were transit pax. (though ba have the only flight from Europe to Cayman, the flight is via the Bahamas and 85% of pax got off).
Finnair also transits a lot of pax though Helsinki.

Transit passengers are no goldmine ! They want a lower fare than the direct flight to take the connecting flight. This lower fare pays for 2 flights, wich means less revenue per flight. It is good to have them to fill the plane a bit more, but making them your primary target is wrong IMHO.

Sabena had a lot of transitpax the last years, and look where they are now... They got a lot of A320's (like you suggest SNBA should do); and got a lot of pax to fill them, but at terrible yields... SNBA is smart to use the smaller planes and keep a good yield.

The 'connecting to the Africa-flights' factor is also overrated I think. They've got 3 longhaul planes and 30 shorthaul planes. Increasing the number and size of the shorthaul fleet so they can feed the longhaul doesn't really make sense, unless they increase the longhaul fleet.

foxtrot_lima_yankee · Post by **foxtrot_lima_yankee** » 28 Jan 2006, 20:20

But in a way VC-10 is right:
A ticket to Paris with the Thalys high-speed train costs at least 60 euros one-way. You can take Eurolines busses paying 30 euros, but sitting uncomfortably in your chair for half a day before getting there. The bus stop in Paris isn t convenient at all as the connection to Charles De Gaulle isn t that easy.
I think it would be interesting for SNBA to sacrify one of its AVRO s in order to make a 3 times daily route to Paris. About taxes and handling fees they might use their imagination (Although their managers do not seem to have so much of it) and set special conditions such as: passengers without luggage pay less. (I do not remember to see many passengers stepping on the Thalys trains carying luggages. Most of them are business-men, carrying their notebooks only.)
Critics say that the train is a better solution reducing handling time as much time is waisted waiting for luggage to come, check-ins, boarding, reaching the airport in the case of air transport while the distance is very short.
Here again they are wrong as many people travelling to Paris only carry their laptop.
For people who connect via Paris Ch. DE Gaulle to other destinations do carry luggage, but here again, they will have to take a full luggage check-in which will cost them 10 minutes of their lives, not such a big disadventage after all as their luggage will be connected to the next flight without needing them to carry them around in Charles de Gaulle while waiing for the connection (while Thalys train passengers will have to).
About the idea of time waist I would like to add one more thing:the flight to Paris lasts 60 minutes with an Avro, but 120 minutes with the Thalys. The Thalys also easily accumulates delays as it travels on a highly frequented line.
The only thing to do is to beg SNBA to beg the belgian politicians to give them the authorisation to open this line again.
These arguments should be more than convincing.

kiwiandrew · Post by **kiwiandrew** » 29 Jan 2006, 15:57

foxtrot_lima_yankee wrote: I think it would be interesting for SNBA to sacrify one of its AVRO s in order to make a 3 times daily route to Paris. About taxes and handling fees they might use their imagination (Although their managers do not seem to have so much of it) and set special conditions such as: passengers without luggage pay less.

The only thing to do is to beg SNBA to beg the belgian politicians to give them the authorisation to open this line again.

taxes aren't set by the airline so how could they decide to reduce them for some pax ?

why would SNBA need authorisation to fly BRU-CDG ? the route is within the EU and they are an EU carrier , they don't need anyones permission to fly it

foxtrot_lima_yankee · Post by **foxtrot_lima_yankee** » 29 Jan 2006, 20:59

Yes they do as the Belgian and French authorities decided not to allow this line, in order to develop train traffic. This is official!
What I mean is not to reduce taxes, but bagage handling charges! Read well before commenting.

SN_fan · Post by **SN_fan** » 29 Jan 2006, 21:24

But, there is a flight from CDG to BRU. It is even a flight with a SN flightnumber, it's operated by axis airways

Acid-drop · Post by **Acid-drop** » 29 Jan 2006, 22:50

foxtrot_lima_yankee wrote:But in a way VC-10 is right:
A ticket to Paris with the Thalys high-speed train costs at least 60 euros one-way.

49 euro round trip

http://www.thalys.com/be/en/fares?s=2&f ... tion=FRPNO

Boeing747-nurse · Post by **Boeing747-nurse** » 21 Feb 2006, 23:40

Hi everybody!

An employee of SNBA told me today that, at the end of march, we can expect the "action plan"of the new CEO Neil Burrows for SNBA and Virgin Express.

Last week Mr. Branson was vistiting the headquarters of SNBA, and he had a meeting with Etienne Davignon...Will Mr. Branson intent to sell his stakes in SNBA-holding?
We will probably get many answers in the next month(s)....

DannyVDB · Post by **DannyVDB** » 21 Feb 2006, 23:58

Indeed the end of March will be important for SNBA and VEX.

- Overview of roads for summer season
- Collaboration with Ethiopian for SNBA ????
- Further integration between both (look at VEX website - destinations of SNBA are already announced)
- Refurbishing the A330
- Financial results 2005
- ...

Danny

fly · Post by **fly** » 22 Feb 2006, 07:53

somebody told me we would know it by the end of feb or beginning march, the earlier the better if you ask me!
Will the plans be in line with the ones of BIAC, to make brussels third airport in europe? hopefully SNBA will expand a bit......
wait and see

best of regards

BrightCedars · Post by **BrightCedars** » 22 Feb 2006, 10:05

fly wrote:Will the plans be in line with the ones of BIAC, to make brussels third airport in europe?

Did they announce this officially? And third in terms of what? Pax? Cargo? Because if they did I think the airport needs new management.
Seriously, in the best case scenario that already seems so unrealistic, who could believe that BRU would ever one day take over CDG, FRA or LHR? Let them already try to take on AMS as a first challenge.

burner737 · Post by **burner737** » 22 Feb 2006, 13:01

BrightCedars wrote:
fly wrote:Will the plans be in line with the ones of BIAC, to make brussels third airport in europe?
Did they announce this officially? And third in terms of what? Pax? Cargo? Because if they did I think the airport needs new management.
Seriously, in the best case scenario that already seems so unrealistic, who could believe that BRU would ever one day take over CDG, FRA or LHR? Let them already try to take on AMS as a first challenge.

hahaha

BRU isn't even close !!!
And do not try to forget DHL will leave in 2008 ...
So yes lets try to take on AMS 8O

Regards Tim

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 22 Feb 2006, 17:48

BrightCedars wrote:
fly wrote:Will the plans be in line with the ones of BIAC, to make brussels third airport in europe?
Did they announce this officially? And third in terms of what? Pax? Cargo? Because if they did I think the airport needs new management.
Seriously, in the best case scenario that already seems so unrealistic, who could believe that BRU would ever one day take over CDG, FRA or LHR? Let them already try to take on AMS as a first challenge.

Change management is not necessary because Macquarie Airports is also sitting in that management.

It's obvious that they want to attract more pax to BRU. Remember that BIAC took away Léon Verhalle and Marc Povall of AMS. Those two are the key to attract more airlines and destinations. They are not comming to BRU for two new carriers or leave their job at AMS for a boring job at BRU. No, set BRU again on the map, that was the message.

@ Burner737

About DHL,

I'm thinking in the way that the government does't want DHL any more and that's why the discussion was very short. Leaving or staying. That's my thought.

In the first place Macquarie Airports was not interesting in cargo. Pax brings more money in the pocket that's why they do all the efforts right now. But because Brucargo doing it very well, Macquarie turns also in the direction of cargo, but that does not mean that they want to have a courier company.

Atlantis · Post by **Atlantis** » 14 Mar 2006, 17:46

It seems that the merge of SNBA and Virgin Express will be a full merge.

On 30 March the management of SNBA and Virgin Express are going to present their strategic plan for the board of SN air Holding. On that day the financial results will also be spoken of SNBA and Virgin.

The day after, the council will give more information about the strategic plan, according to insiders it's a very promising plan.

About the new name: SN air Holding has the rights of Sir Richard Branson to use the name Virgin Express till April 2007.

The headquarters of Virgin Express will be moved to The corporate village where SNBA has his one.

Source: travel magazine newsletter

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 14 Mar 2006, 18:30

I've heared it is going to be a very solid plan indeed, with a strategic horizon of several years, but that it will also be a relatively modest and not overly ambitious plan.

We'll have to wait till next month to see what that means.

airazurxtror · Post by **airazurxtror** » 16 Mar 2006, 10:39

Also in "Le Soir" this morning : the big decisions will be taken on march 30, integration of merger between SNBA and Virgin Express.
From the user-traveller-passenger point of view, the question is : what will be the consequences on the network, the frequencies, the on-board service and, last but not least, the tarifs ?
Will it result in a low-fares or high-fares carrier, or a subtle mix in between ?

b-west · Post by **b-west** » 16 Mar 2006, 14:17

I suppose SN will continue like they're busy... gradual expansion, codesharing with everything that dares to land in Brussels, offering attractive, almost low-cost, fares for limited seats, while keeping up their high service level.

Personally, I would like to see some longhaul expansion, especially towards the (far)east, as this area is almost completely uncovered by BRU. I really think there's room for a carrier offering flights from BRU to places as Hongkong, Singapore and the other asian tigers.

Wishfull thinking: They could try to get rid of some of the 737's... there must be a market somewhere for them... and replace them with some shiny longhaul birds.

FlightSimCrew · Post by **FlightSimCrew** » 17 Mar 2006, 09:05

b-west wrote:Wishfull thinking: They could try to get rid of some of the 737's... there must be a market somewhere for them... and replace them with some shiny longhaul birds.

Cant really follow your logic here.. why should medium haul routes be sacrificed to increase long haul business it are just these destinations that deliver the required feeding to operate more long haul.

Allnipponairways · Post by **Allnipponairways** » 21 Mar 2006, 01:34

It is very bad that they merger ..they should stay seperate as it hurst sn brussels to go together witgh a low cost .. bad reputation getting this way if you buy ticket thinking you fly sn adn then you get on an old 737 completely red where you have to pay for drinks who says do you still want to fly sn if they put you on virgin ... NOOOOOO

Post by **sn26567** » 21 Mar 2006, 09:27

Allnipponairways wrote:It is very bad that they merger ..they should stay seperate as it hurst sn brussels to go together witgh a low cost ..

And if it was the other way around? If people travelling on VEX got full SN service, as is already the case with VEX flights to Toulon?

FlightSimCrew · Post by **FlightSimCrew** » 21 Mar 2006, 12:07

Allnipponairways wrote:It is very bad that they merger ..they should stay seperate as it hurst sn brussels to go together witgh a low cost .. bad reputation getting this way if you buy ticket thinking you fly sn adn then you get on an old 737 completely red where you have to pay for drinks who says do you still want to fly sn if they put you on virgin ... NOOOOOO

I assume that this is only a personal comment and not an analyzed and researched observation? I can agree that passengers will be upset that they would end up on another airliner than they booked with but I beleive this is only a problem if you haven't informed them thoroughly. Look at what charter airlines do to bring in additional capacity. You can't hardly say that an MNG/Future service is equal to TUI/FQ service on board.

I do think that people in SN and TV are clever enough to assure a good differentiation between any product they offer as Brussels needs a full service and a low cost airline thatt's for sure !