D-Day for SN Brussels Airlines and Virgin Express

an-148 · Post by **an-148** » 12 Apr 2005, 11:32

I read that shareholders are planning to sell there shares.
That's OK or not OK, it's not the problem (it's there money!!!)
The problem is more this one: they plan to sell the shares to an existing AIRLINE!!!!!!!! (listed are BA, AA ....).
It seems that NOBODY learned anything from the "Flying together with Swissair" story, a story wellknown for its incomparable success !
Sell to a financial group, why not, but NEVER to a concurrent!!!

itami · Post by **itami** » 12 Apr 2005, 12:30

Why not SQ ?

an-148 · Post by **an-148** » 12 Apr 2005, 13:09

Simply because it is an airline, also if it is an asian one!
We have seen it with steel companies (Cockerill, Boel, sold to other steel companies which promise to maintain jobs, to be stonger on the market and many other "good" reasons: the ONLY reason is to take control over a concurrent)
The same with airlines the ink of the signature under the contract Lufthansa/Swiss is not dry that Swiss is already closing French Crossair to be replaced by....(guess!) LH Regional!
Anyway, I will not loose very much tears for Swiss because of what they did to our emblematic SABENA, but the fact is : PLEASE, never sell to anybody active in the same branch, it's ALWAYS to be eaten up!

Post by **sn26567** » 12 Apr 2005, 14:16

Virgin Express won the press release competition: https://www.aviation24.be/article8322.html

Post by **sn26567** » 12 Apr 2005, 14:18

an-148 wrote:Swiss is already closing French Crossair to be replaced by....(guess!) LH Regional!

ALL the SWISS flights out of Basle/Mulhouse (not only those of Crossair France) are to be carried out by Lufthansa Regional: https://www.aviation24.be/article8312.html

an-148 · Post by **an-148** » 12 Apr 2005, 14:25

Any more need for prove?

maximenaeyaert · Post by **maximenaeyaert** » 12 Apr 2005, 16:26

There's something to see about it at vrtnieuws.net , probably it will be at the news also. But there is nothing mentioned they will be sold.

max

Post by **sn26567** » 13 Apr 2005, 10:16

There is something unclear to me. The merged airlines say that there will be no impact on the personnel, but also that they hope to save 30 million euros per year thanks to synergies. I fear that some staff positions will be made redundant.

Does anyone have more information?

an-148 · Post by **an-148** » 13 Apr 2005, 10:23

I guess that, with the same amount of aircraft, employees,.... they will serve more routes avoiding to serve the same or close to each other destinations, avoiding dubble service on some routes.

AFApresident · Post by **AFApresident** » 13 Apr 2005, 11:13

Probably some lower managment positions will be cut, also you won´t need 2 callcenters anymore, or 2 ICT departments. So I guess about 70-80% of the current total SN and VEX personell in these departments will keep its job the rest will or get a new job within the company or be fired.

Pilots and Flight Attendants probably don´t need to fear, because they will just fly other routes instead of the same as SN or VEX did before the merger. (see new flights to Cork, Jersey, Murcia, Catania etc).

Furthermore you will get cost savings in fuel, catering and maybe even plane leases because you can buy it now as a much bigger customer rather than 2 small customers who always have less market force than 1 big player.

just my 2cents,

themole · Post by **themole** » 13 Apr 2005, 13:23

A lot of blablabla in the press release of SN Brussels Airlines, but they "accidentally" forgot to mention that SN Brussels Airlines will discontinue its services to Nice as of September 6th. Nice is mainly a low yield leisure destination and generates almost no African transfer pax for SN Brussels Airlines. Therefore, SN Brussels Airlines decided to drop Nice in favour of partner Virgin Express, as part of their synergy strategy.

FlightSimCrew · Post by **FlightSimCrew** » 13 Apr 2005, 13:55

themole wrote: A lot of blablabla in the press release of SN Brussels Airlines, but they "accidentally" forgot to mention that SN Brussels Airlines will discontinue its services to Nice as of September 6th.

I think its a very political communication, no airline likes to admite cutting services and by the way, SNBA will also be reducing BCN ferquencies as from April already ..

Flying-Belgian · Post by **Flying-Belgian** » 13 Apr 2005, 14:15

themole wrote:A lot of blablabla in the press release of SN Brussels Airlines, but they "accidentally" forgot to mention that SN Brussels Airlines will discontinue its services to Nice as of September 6th. Nice is mainly a low yield leisure destination and generates almost no African transfer pax for SN Brussels Airlines. Therefore, SN Brussels Airlines decided to drop Nice in favour of partner Virgin Express, as part of their synergy strategy.

It was always (one of) the goals of the merger after all !! It sounds very logical.
No way SN has to battle on what is a very pure low cost destination.
Some of you have to slowly realize that BCN doesn't intererst many regular carriers anymore. When you arrive there you mostly see LCC.
Synergy = merger of some operations to try and make the most profit of it.

FB.

themole · Post by **themole** » 13 Apr 2005, 16:36

FlightSimCrew wrote:I think its a very political communication, no airline likes to admite cutting services and by the way, SNBA will also be reducing BCN ferquencies as from April already ..

The discontinuation of SN Brussels Airlines its Barcelona operations is already old news. Hence, for SN Brussels Airlines this doesn't seem to be news at all. The past few weeks and months, there were many precedents. Nor the discontinuation of the "operated by Finnair via Helsinki" Riga and Tallinn operations, nor the discontinuation of the "operated by Iberia Régional" Oviedo operations, nor the discontinuation of the "operated by Hellas Jet" Athens operations, nor the temporary suspension of the Napels route was communicated. I am only relying on my memory here, there are undoubtedly more examples. I wonder how long it will take before SN Brussels Airlines communicates their Paris Gare du Nord rail-link flop, and which reasons will be given for the reinstated air-link, this time "operated by Axis Airways". Do you remember the big media event in regard to the announcement of the partnership between SN Brussels Airlines and Thalys on the Paris sector? No doubt that no such showcase is planned for the announcement of the discontinuation of the partnership. Anyway, everybody already knows that the latter will take place, it even already appeared in the local press. The flights are even loaded in the SN Brussels Airlines CRS, but still no word from the SN Brussels Airlines corporate communication department. This kind of selective communication only causes confusion, many questions and doubts arise amongst potential pax. Do you call this political? I call this a mess.

Anyway, the difference between the discontinuation of the Barcelona and Nice operations is that Barcelona will still be offered through a "operated by Iberia" codesharing agreement, whilst Nice will silently disappear out of the SN Brussels Airlines network. Through the backdoor that is ...

FlightSimCrew · Post by **FlightSimCrew** » 13 Apr 2005, 16:51

I have never known a company before who communicates on his/her weaknesses and failures.. generally it is beleived as being very stupid doing this. I have never been informed earlier that a CD, game, brand of soup, car type will be gracefully taken out of sales ... so I do not expect this to be for a airline destination

Avro · Post by **Avro** » 13 Apr 2005, 19:04

Of crouse they won't make a big show to announce a failure or a simple discontinuation of a specific route. But I agree with Themole on the fact that SN could be more transparent and less confusiong sometimes.

A simple (This route will be discontinued as from this date) as a press release would be very customer firendly and isn't a sign of weakness of the airline at all IMHO.

Chris

themole · Post by **themole** » 15 Apr 2005, 05:30

FlightSimCrew wrote:I have never known a company before who communicates on his/her weaknesses and failures.. generally it is beleived as being very stupid doing this. I have never been informed earlier that a CD, game, brand of soup, car type will be gracefully taken out of sales ... so I do not expect this to be for a airline destination

You seem to know very little, or systematically consult the wrong resources. It is obvious that the discontinuation of a product or service is not subject to a big media event or a marketing campaign. It often doesn't even require a press release, as the press usually won't publish this kind of news anyway, unless it is remarkable news. For example the discontinuation of the SN Brussels Airlines/Thalys partnership on the Paris sector was remarkable news, as it is generally presumed that on the Amsterdam-Brussels-Paris axis, travel by train instead of by plane is the future.

But what is generally known as a "press release" is not always meant for the press solely, it can also be useful for the broad public. Hence, a lot of corporations only communicate upcoming modifications or discontinuations on a B2B level. And then it is up to the retailer to inform the costumers that a certain product or service is not longer available (B2C). But on the internet, the corporation itself often is the retailer ...

An open and transparent communication policy has nothing to do with stupidity, it is just a style of communicating. Many big corporations communicate very openly, others communicate poorly or not at all.

As far as I am concerned, a corporation should communicate just about everything openly when the time is right - external matters that is - , or they better don't communicate at all. The selective good news shows like those of SN Brussels Airlines are becoming more and more pathetic. It is crystal clear that all negative vibes in regard to SN Brussels Airlines are carefully filtered, because this project must succeed at any cost. A negative perception like in the Sabena days must be avoided, no matter what it takes. That's my problem with the SN Brussels Airlines communication policy, there is no other reason. Bad results are rarely - if ever - communicated, even though they are nothing to be ashamed of. But on the other hand, they repeatedly slap you in the face with their so called "good results" - a 1,04 million € net profit on a 656 million € revenue is hardly break-even, nothing more or less - and irrelevant announcements or systematic good news shows.

I also find it remarkable that even though SN Brussels Airlines and Virgin Express are now affiliated companies, the communication styles are very different. Whilst SN Brussels Airlines never communicates the discontinuation of a service, its affiliate Virgin Express has a whole other way of dealing with this kind of sensitive and somewhat negative corporate communication. Two examples: Example 1, Example 2.

By the way, does a public acknowledgement of a failed project make you a bad player? On the contrary, it makes you a good sport. As member "Avro" already pointed out, it takes only a few minutes to adjust a webpage and make a small announcement. Is that really too much to ask?

And one more thing dear "FlightSimCrew".

3rd private message FlightSimCrew wrote:Take it easy,
..
What about communication of VEX on the closure of the Dlish product (foodonboard), fasing out another aircraft from the fleet, frequency adjustments on FCO/MAD/.., and there is much more not communicated which I will not disclose..
My point being that you appear to have not all facts and figures available, this smells heavily that you are a journalist !

There is only one word to describe your comments or its content: pulp. I would appreciate it if you would not bother me anymore with your worthless private messages. Apparently, you think you have all the answers? In that case, I hope it makes you feel good about yourself.

* Not a word about the discontinuation of the "Dlish" service? ->Try this.
How peculiar that someone who has www.virginexpress.com as URL in his profile didn't notice this?

* Not a word about the fleet reduction?
A few sources mention this, e.g SN Air Holding press release. I am sure that the online fleet list of Virgin Express will be adjusted soon. For the record, SN Brussels Airlines doesn't even have such a fleet list on their website.

* For starters, there is a huge difference between a frequency change on a certain route, or a discontinuation of a certain route. But frequency changes are indeed seldom communicated, which I regret. Hence, Madrid was reduced due to the fact that Virgin Express needed that aircraft for other services. Simultaneously, this measure fitted in the SN/TV synergy strategy, as Madrid remains one of the 3 jointly served destinations together with Rome FCO and Geneva. The Rome FCO services were modified due to operational restrictions and again, it simultaneously fitted in the SN/TV synergy strategy. The deal was that Virgin Express would not serve a jointly served destination more than 2 times daily. So the Madrid and Rome FCO services had to be reduced to 2 daily flights anyway. Rome FCO was even downgraded to a once daily flight, due to the fact that Virgin Express decided to drop Milan LIN and because this measure caused an operational problem. So they decided to alter the once daily triangle routing between Brussels, Amsterdam and Milan LIN to Rome FCO. Inaugurating a once daily Milan BGY service out of Amsterdam would have been unwise, as Transavia Airlines already operates 2 daily flights on the Milan BGY sector, with more convenient schedules.

PS in Dutch for the webmaster: Misschien een idee voor de heer Noëth om eindelijk het kaf van het koren te scheiden op deze website, want het is erg gesteld met de relevante luchtvaart gerelateerde en bovenal accurate berichten tegenwoordig.

Start na www.luchtzak.be misschien ook www.luchtkak.be op, speciaal voor de zeveraars die actief zijn op deze website want dat zijn er heel wat. Maar als je natuurlijk liever uw tijd steekt in belachelijke woordspelletjes, tja ... dan is het niet te verwonderen dat deze website qua niveau wegzakt naar een dieptepunt. Enkele luchtvaart insiders houden deze website recht, voor de rest is het pure pulp. Hoe meer leden, hoe meer hits - daar is het U toch om te doen - ... hoe lager het niveau. Tijd om U eens te bezinnen over wat U nu eigenlijk wil met deze website. Alvast mijn excuses om ronduit te zeggen wat velen denken.

FlightSimCrew · Post by **FlightSimCrew** » 15 Apr 2005, 08:57

Dear Mole,

For what I am concerned you are no better than those "presumably called pulp writes" a category were you seem to have included myself in.

I can understand that you take the opportunity with this website to provoke a discussion on certain decisions / communications (merger, Thalys, SNBA results,...) but I cannot understand why it disturbs you that every user in this forum has its own opinion and thoughts on these decisions. In my opinion everybody should have its say whether it is completely crap or not. If you cannot take this I would advice not to post anymore on the website but go and work for a press agency!

You indeed seem to rather be well informed on several issues within both companies and your posts are written in a very professional way. So congratz for that. But has it ever crossed your mind that with posting such level of detail (playing the little mole) you have been putting the both companies in some difficult positions. Nobody from the company's management requires to explain his/her actions to you or any of the employees. We accept these as they have been taken in the company's (and consequently also our) best intrest even when it means that no or little communication will be sent around. We also do not require you to feel responsible for this communication and start your own little independant communication agency and start spreading the news. All information available will be distributed to the people concerned in due time and I urge you in the future to respect this hierarchy. It is very important and I beleive a person with a professional attitude can understand this.

Everybody is entitled to its own opinion, I have frequently discussions with "waldova" on the Vueling performance and product as he likes the company and I have had a bad experience with them.. so what?.. I respect his point of view whether I beleive it is pulp or not. So please do not post anymore any PM you receive from any user and I strongly beleive nobody can appreciate this.

greetz
-FSC-

tolipanebas · Post by **tolipanebas** » 15 Apr 2005, 09:05

Although Brussels Airlines and Virgin Express are now affiliated companies, their communication styles are very different

Indeed, so they are. Ever thought that this could be the due to the fact VEX is/was stock listed (and thus legally obliged to communicate much more openly all matters of interest), whereas SN is a privately owned company, with no need to communicate anything at all?
I don't want to infuriate you, but you can rest assured that in the future, press communications of VEX will reflect the style of those made by SN.

It is crystal clear that all negative vibes in regard to SN Brussels Airlines are carefully filtered, because this project must succeed at any cost. A negative perception like in the Sabena days must be avoided, no matter what it takes.

Indeed, right on the money once again. Ever thought this enterprise, set up as a one-shot-only venture in the mid of the deepest aviation crisis ever and deemed an insane project by 99,9% of the observers, MUST indeed succeed at all costs, for the sake of it's 2000 employees, for the sake of Brussels Airport and the thousands of people working there and for the sake of Belgium? Perception is extremely important indeed and SN does not want to be seen as a second Sabena, which -despite all the improvements made to the product in the later years- kept it's reputation of having a poor service right till the end. SN has more than enough on its hands fighting the competition in Europe (notably STAR alliance), not to have to fight a perceived negative image as well...

A public acknowledgement of a failed project doesn't make you a bad player.

Indeed it doesn't, but mind you: SN flew with almost empty planes (load factors lower than 30% on Europe for over a year!) simply because nobody dared to fly them, scared they'd loose the money on tickets paid in advance. One or Two 'sporty acknowledgements' of discontinued routes (like the Hanover route early 2002 for instance) and that 30% would have been reduced even further!
With a bunch of shareholders almost forced into investing and eager to pull the plug on the first occassion offered to them, SN has the extremely difficult and even unique task not only to charm potential passengers, but also its current shareholders and in this perspective, the aim to 'cover up' all that smells bad is more than understandable and certainly not anoying to me. Heck, if SN would just give away all on their site, what insight information would we be discussing on this forum?

FlightSimCrew · Post by **FlightSimCrew** » 15 Apr 2005, 09:08

Finaly a constructive post ... way to go toplinebas !