Ryanair at Brussels Airport

[quixoticguide]

And for the one-way ticket too, they are way too expensive!

Most airlines are expensive for one way tickets.

[Flanker2]

Most airlines except LCC's.
Ryanair, Easy and others advertise one-way fares. You can combine those one-way fares into a return ticket, but the fare stays the same. They don't try to get more money out of you depending on the length of your stay and combination of departure and arrival dates.
If you try to book one-way or short trips that do not overlap over a week-end with SN or other legacy airlines, expect to be screwed big time.

Legacy airlines focus their yield management on the spending power and profile of the customer, rather than the offer/demand for a flight on a given date. LCC's do this too, with tickets priced differently depending on the day of the week and the schedule offered, but they won't go as far as to try to take the most money based on your travel requirements. They will remain focused on the offer/demand.

For a self-employed or small enterprise manager, SN's fares are too prohibitive for business travel. Hence, SN is actually rejecting a lot of business travelers who have to opt for alternatives. By doing so, they only keep those who can afford it... better a seat that pays 200€ and an empty seat, than 2 seats at 100€?
We'll see if they can survive with that but I doubt that they can sustain it. They will lose big on average yields, no doubt. With the current set of destinations announced by FR and Vueling, I expect SN to see a negative dip of at least 30 millions in 2014 on their earnings sheet due to loss of traffic and yields, especially on the Rome and Barcelone routes. I think that OPO and LIS is a lost cause for SN, it can't be sustainable anymore, especially given that these routes are longer and more expensive to operate. I expect that they will ditch them.

A comparison for March shows me Ryanair at around 70 euro's return to Rome, while SN is always at least double as expensive. On Lisbon, there is no comparison... even though I won't ever set foot on SN planes again (as they are on my personal blacklist), it doesn't hurt to compare.
I sometimes hear businessmen laugh about Ryanair, but it only reminds me that being a snob costs money... A seat on a plane is a seat on a plane after all.
For my part, the snobs can keep flying SN and others. Less competition for my Ryanair ticket.

If FR further grows its base in BRU, to include destinations like GVA, NCE and Berlin, it would be the definite KO for SN. I'm sure that MOL can't wait to get rid of them, after years of %*%¨¨µù and competition coming from them.
What I really wonder is what U2 is going to do next... surely they must be planning something.

[blanik]

What strikes me is that people expect to fly almost for free.
In the longterm , those low prices are not sustainable.
Ever considered thinking which price would be a fair, logical one on a trip?
Flying to FCO in 2 hours for 70€ ....if you would take your own car , you would not be able to pass beyond the alps for that price.
Remember that nowadays , you aren't able to fill your car with gasoline for 70€.
A taxi from ostend to brussels airport costs 70€.
A visit to a restaurant costs 70€.
What ryanair managed to do is to make people think that they can fly for 70€ to rome.
That I find snobbish.

[airazurxtror]

What ryanair managed to do is to make people think that they can fly for 70€ to rome.

People don't only think they can fly to Rome for 70 euros : they can actually fly to Rome for 70 euros - or even less - with Ryanair.

[Inquirer]

What flanker seems to forget it that the biggest portion of one day return tickets (or alternatively one way tickets) is booked by very frequent flyers like me who happen to fly on a corporate contract and as such don't pay the listed prices so comparing website advertised pricing is fairly pointless in this specific case, as I can assure you B.air -on a corporate contract- is very often on a par or even cheaper than Easyjet through their website for instance (and I bet ryanair as well, for the matter were they to offer real corporate destinations).

Believe me, we're no idiots at work either and we have ran the numbers, but on a yearly basis, given the network and partnerships they offer, the miles that come with it (and which we use to book flights to ZRH with which are notoriously expensive otherwise) and the cashback at the end when we make the contractual treshold (which we easily do), they are by far the overall best deal when based in BRU.

Since I only have 2 more days at work before year's end, I can easily share some budget figures: my personal travel budget for flights stood at just over 30,000 euro in 2013, that of my team at 217,000 euro, all of which got spent on STAR Alliance airlines, 2/3rd on Brussels Airlines even. Last year I've flown them a total of 119 legs on a total of 174 flights. I've also been to ZRH 14 times on a ticket with miles and we get a significant cashback: you can run the numbers yourself flanker, to figure out just what idiots we are (not).

[sean1982]

In the longterm , those low prices are not sustainable.

How long is your "longterm"? FR is offering low fares for 17 years already?

[sean1982]

Since I only have 2 more days at work before year's end, I can easily share some budget figures: my personal travel budget for flights stood at just over 30,000 euro in 2013, that of my team at 217,000 euro, all of which got spent on STAR Alliance airlines, 2/3rd on Brussels Airlines even. Last year I've flown them a total of 119 legs on a total of 174 flights. I've also been to ZRH 14 times on a ticket with miles and we get a significant cashback: you can run the numbers yourself flanker, to figure out just what idiots we are (not).

30.000 / 174 is still an average fare of 172EUR on a corporate ticket?? That's 120EUR above FR's average ticket price.

[airazurxtror]

What flanker seems to forget it that the biggest portion of one day return tickets (or alternatively one way tickets) is booked by very frequent flyers like me who happen to fly on a corporate contract and as such don't pay the listed prices so comparing website advertised pricing is fairly pointless in this specific case, as I can assure you B.air -on a corporate contract- is very often on a par or even cheaper than Easyjet through their website for instance (and I bet ryanair as well, for the matter were they to offer real corporate destinations).

Let Brussels Airlines care for the businessmen and the corporate contracts - and make tens of millions euros losses each year ...
The LCC's know better.

[Inquirer]

30.000 / 174 is still an average fare of 172EUR on a corporate ticket?? That's 120EUR above FR's average ticket price.

You see sean1982, that is exactly where you, flanker and many others go wrong, because you forget to look at the full picture and just look at a single ticket like private customers do.

When you are in charge of an annual travel budget like I am at work, things get a little bit more complicated than that because your European travel pattern is more diverse than just a single flight to a single destination and so things starts to influence each other.

Let me elaborate a few things, may I?

Thanks to our corporate contract with STAR, we get a 15% cash back if we make a certain treshold (which we do), so that slashes the average corporate ticket fare to just 145 euro then.
Now, ryanair's average ticket price may be just 50 euro today as you say, but that's with their regional airport concept. I have a feeling that from BRU average fares will be found to be significantly higher than that given the higher costbase they will face overhere: easyjet are at what, 70 to 80 euro from BRU on average? That's what we seem to have as a reference here whenever we are booking them on BSL as kind of overflow policy.

Secondly, we collect M&M miles, which we use very intelligently to book flights to ZRH with: I did 14 return flights to ZRH that way. Knowing LX charges 700 euro on average for a day return to ZRH, that alone represents a saving of some 10,000 euro, you know?

Now, let's say I've spent say 60 euro more than what I should (provided all of those flights on B.air had an easyjet alternative, which they haven't) on each of those 119 flights, so say 7,000 euro at worst, but I managed to save 10,000 euro elsewhere (LX), AND on top of that I get to check in my luggage for free should I leave on a multi-stopped trip through Europe, I get a status (thus lounge access throughout Europe) and I benefit from a much wider choice of flights, frequencies and destinations from BRU, not to mention we basically get the same deal on any other STAR airlines we routinely happen to fly on (and LH through FRA are a great way to fly wherever you need to be globally) etc.

Starting to see the bigger point? It's not that I am married to STAR Alliance or anything like that, it's just that indeed it really does do the trick, but you need to be flying them a lot then....

[sean1982]

Right, so this is only viable for big companies and like flanker said useless for self-employed and small companies. Is this the only group SN is targeting than? No wonder they're losing money

[teddybAIR]

30.000 / 174 is still an average fare of 172EUR on a corporate ticket?? That's 120EUR above FR's average ticket price.

Is there an official source stating the average price of tickets per airline? And if there is, my opinion is that the average ticket price is not the correct metric as it does not account for the average length of a sector. Better would be to calculate the average price per seat mile.

Regardless of that, I can hardly believe that the average price would be 172€ - 120€ = 52€. That would suggest that RYR is capable of running a flight on a budget of 10.000€. I find that very hard to believe given the fuel costs are the most significatnt cost of any airline and that their B738's consume as much as any other B738.

But curious to see an official price comparison.

[blanik]

Sean 1982,

I wonder, a taxi from ostend to charleroi costs 70€ and a flight from charleroi to rome costs 70€ .
Is the taxi too expensive or the flight too cheap?

I think the flight is too cheap. And in the end this paid by subsidising ryanair ( or even brussels airlines now). Paid by taxes. By you and me.

The amount inquirer is paying for his flights are more reasonable, fair .

In the longterm it is wiser to have a fair, logical, reasonable system.
In the end i am not interested in who will survive. I want the EU to do what is right, and that is a common fiscal system for every airline in europe.
And as long as europe is not responding to this call, it is fine by me to subsidise brussls airlines in the same manner as ryanair.

[teddybAIR]

In the longterm it is wiser to have a fair, logical, reasonable system.

Hi Blanik, although I agree with your statement, you cannot ignore the fact that a consumer will always tend to be tempted by the cheapest offer. Ryanairs success is based on the fact that for the price difference, people tend to simply put up with certain of their practices, which I have to admit, I only know from urban legends and is not at all based on personal experience. That is exactly why I wonder whether the customer experience at RYR is really that bad as some say. If it were, it wouldn't last a decade, would it? And if it is, then why do pax keep flying them? Exactly, because we're only willing to pay that fair price until someone comes along with a cheaper altenrative.

[blanik]

Hi teddybair,

I have no problem with business model of ryanair, i agree it works for the ones looking for cheap, cheap, cheap.

I have a problem with the unfair fiscal system which they make use of. Unchanged by EU.

I wonder how EU will react with the 15 million state aid to brussels airlines which is exactly the same as the ryanair one. Imagine if ryanair would have to pay back all the unfair financial aid they received last 17 years.
That would be interesting....

[FlightMate]

Inquirer, I hope you ran your numbers right. Maybe you could be saving tens of thousands euros if you would pick FR instead of SN, who knows?

In period when business is good, companies book business class, with the alliance of their choice.
But when business is scarce, economies have got to be made, and then either people don't travel anymore, or they look at cheaper alternative.

Look at sn, they were doing ok for 6-7 years, then after the crisis, lost so much money they are on the edge of bankruptcy, even in a strong alliance.
While FR manages to make the same or more profit as before the crisis.

I don't really see families changing their habit. If they were looking for the cheapest price, they would have already been travelling with FR.

I can only suppose that businessmen allowed more flexibility in their choice of airlines. And were forced to look at cheaper alternatives.

[teddybAIR]

I have a problem with the unfair fiscal system which they make use of. Unchanged by EU.

I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable on the subject to express myself on it. I have heard through the grapevine that RYR pilots work on a self-employed basis and that RYR does not pay social security on pilot wages. What I wonder is wether that is so different from any other self-employed, be it a plumber, an electrician, a doctor, a lawyer,...

anybody more info on that?

Regarding the state aid: although I am a fierce aviation enthousiast, I'm a fan of banning all state aid from economic activity, aviation included.

[FlightMate]

Teddy,

Some years ago, SN had to employ contract pilots (because they were short of crew).
I believe the same thing applied. They paid the contractor (parc) and parc paid the pilots, being self-employed.
They were making a lot more than sn pilots, but I don't think sn was paying much more in total.

[teddybAIR]

I can't help wondering whether the truth is really that bright as mentionned, but it is possible of course. But let's not forget that somebody who is independently employed still has to foresee in his own social security and that he/she is faced with less social protection than somebody who is on the payroll.

In the meantime i read this article in De Standaard where Marc Descheemaker gave his view on RYR @ BRU.

[airazurxtror]

http://www.dhnet.be/actu/economie/la-pr ... aedaa7a3c8

"Si Brussels Airlines est balayé par Ryanair et que Ryanair ne propose pas de vols à destination de l'Afrique, c'est une détérioration de l'offre. Les voyageurs concernés se tourneront alors vers Paris ou Francfort, ce qui nuira finalement à l'économie belge", a ajouté le président du conseil d'administration de l'aéroport.

"If Brussels Airlines is swept up by Ryanair and Ryanair does not offer flights to Africa, it is a deterioration of the offer. Travellers concerned will then turn to Paris or Frankfurt, which ultimately will harm the Belgian economy, "said Chairman of the Board of Directors of the airport.

According to Marc Descheemaeker, the loss for the Belgian finances will thus result from the passengers to Africa having to go and to take their flight at Paris or Frankfurt in place of Brussels.
Hard to believe that, by just doing so, those passengers will rock the Belgian economy ...

[Flanker2]

It will be interesting to think of what will come in the aftermath of SN's insolvency, but Descheemaeker is either biased in his analysis or isn't seeing the big picture.

Europe:
Ryanair can surely cover a big chunk of SN's network and I have no doubt that Easyjet will increase capacity in BRU. It will be a bit like when Maleev went belly-up.

Africa:
What I wonder most is how JAF will react... I think that they would be rather interested to take over at least a big chunk of SN's African network before anyone else lays their hands on it (think bilaterals), even if they have to start operating CDG and other feeder routes. We know about their recent interest for FIH.

Star Alliance:
I think that there will be a negative impact on the Star Alliance side. This will smash BRU's dreams of becoming a Star hub.

New carriers:
I'm pretty sure that Belgian or other entrepreneurs will see a new opportunity in a new Belgian budget carrier. I think that BRU is the ideal hub for a low-cost longhaul operation, because it's a midsize airport.


Sean, thank you for reminding Inquirer that I was indeed referring to small companies and self-employed.
Inquirer, with your explanation it becomes clear to me that SN would just be better off advertising common rates rather than paying sales staff to sign corporate contracts, in an attempt to take advantage of the small company business pax who don't have a contract with a carrier... after all this pax will look for alternatives.

I don't see what they can achieve by advertising such high fares, if they then give big discounts to their corporates? Are they trying to give their corporate customer base the illusion that they are getting a good deal? Well that seems to be working... In the meanwhile, they lose all the other customers who don't have illusions but only the hard numbers.