Air India or Jet Airways, who will join Star Alliance?

[RoMax]

Hi,

Isn't this gonna strenghten Jet and BRU even more ?

Not bad... as long as Jet ...

Maybe we see soon Jet opening the Hyderabad route again ?

CX-B

I don't know if this is positive for anyone. Yes it MAY help the India-BRU routes. But SN is also part of the LH group and it's not really that the Indian government loves Jet Airways (wich is one of the reasons why AI is now not part of Star). So they may also find something against BRU/SN/Jet. Let's hope not.

About Hyderabad... I think you mean Bangalore wich was shortly operated by Jet and is named as the first destination that would be (re)started if Jet want's to expand in BRU.

[cathay belgium]

@MR Boeing

Indeed, I meant Bangalore sorry..
If India will work out same sanctions for Jet/SN/BRU.. well maybe it's time for an european answer..
The european countries always are blabla-ing about monopolies and competition... well then..
time to punish India ?

Guess only the Gulf carriers are making profit about this..

What a story OMG, India should have better spend more time in AI and their management then this childish story...

CX-B

[RoMax]

Air India and Star Alliance restarted their talks...Air India still wants to join Star Alliance. But Star Alliance only wants AI if they allow Jet to join.
Air India says the Star membership is so important in their development they will allow a second Indian airline to join. The only thing they ask for at this moment is to be the first to join, Jet Airways is allowed to join after them.

If Star Alliance agrees, they'll relaunch the integration process which shouldn't take that long as Air India was ready to join last year, the only thing that stopped them was the fact that they refused to agree with Jet Airways joining after them (each full member airline can use its veto when a new airline membership has to be agreed, AI could do this, unless otherwise specified in the contracts between Star and AI)

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 170301.cms

[cnc]

the only thing that stopped them was the fact that they refused to agree with Jet Airways joining after them

i have no idea what your source is but this is far from being the reason.

each full member airline can use its veto when a new airline membership has to be agreed

in reality this is far from being true.

[RoMax]

i have no idea what your source is but this is far from being the reason.

The other problems AI experienced 'helped' AI in the decision to block the entry, but AI refusing to allow 9W in the alliance was the main reason... Star doesn't need AI in the state they are now and if they can't get 9W afterwards there is no sense to let AI enter the alliance.

in reality this is far from being true.

Ok, maybe wrong in this, but I was always told that each full member airline can block another airline from joining by using their veto. And that this was one of the big differences with a full member and the previous Regional members (Croatia Airlines, Blue1 and Adria Airways) which were allowed to take part in certain votings, but had no right to vote in the most essential votings and that they didn't have a veto.
But ok, I'm not the expert in this alliance-voting business, these are just the things I heard about this so I stand corrected on this...

[wernerrav4]

i have no idea what your source is but this is far from being the reason.

The other problems AI experienced 'helped' AI in the decision to block the entry, but AI refusing to allow 9W in the alliance was the main reason... Star doesn't need AI in the state they are now and if they can't get 9W afterwards there is no sense to let AI enter the alliance.

in reality this is far from being true.

Ok, maybe wrong in this, but I was always told that each full member airline can block another airline from joining by using their veto. And that this was one of the big differences with a full member and the previous Regional members (Croatia Airlines, Blue1 and Adria Airways) which were allowed to take part in certain votings, but had no right to vote in the most essential votings and that they didn't have a veto.
But ok, I'm not the expert in this alliance-voting business, these are just the things I heard about this so I stand corrected on this...

I thought that I read in a press release that the reason AI could not join STAR was " due to the fact that Air India has not met the minimum joining conditions that were contractually agreed in December 2007".
I could not find the reason, in that release, you mention about AI blocking the participatin from 9W to join aswell.

[RoMax]

I thought that I read in a press release that the reason AI could not join STAR was " due to the fact that Air India has not met the minimum joining conditions that were contractually agreed in December 2007".
I could not find the reason, in that release, you mention about AI blocking the participatin from 9W to join aswell.

That's what I meant when I said that AI's financial (and other) problems helped Star Alliance to block the entry of AI...of course they are not going to say "Well, they can't join because they don't allow us to let their biggest competitor joining". The Indian government was now already furious about the fact Star blocked AI and they knew very well that 9W was the main reason.
As I said, back in 2007 AI was a quite good choice (not the best, but that's due to LH which got a lot of advantages by getting AI (almost) in Star), but this changed, now 9W is the best choice. Star Alliance can still use AI, but only to have good contacts with the (corupt) Indian government, due to their financial (and other) problems, they are worthless. Unless they join and let 9W join afterwards. This gives Star Alliance good contacts to the Indian government because AI is in the alliance and they have a good Indian partner as a member (9W). But the fact that AI refused this last year made the decision for Star Alliance very easy, so yes they do not meet the minimum joining conditions, but if AI allowed 9W to join after them, Star Alliance wouldn't even care (that last is a bit exaggerated, but you get my point)...

[cnc]

Ok, maybe wrong in this, but I was always told that each full member airline can block another airline from joining by using their veto. And that this was one of the big differences with a full member and the previous Regional members (Croatia Airlines, Blue1 and Adria Airways) which were allowed to take part in certain votings, but had no right to vote in the most essential votings and that they didn't have a veto.
But ok, I'm not the expert in this alliance-voting business, these are just the things I heard about this so I stand corrected on this...

in theory, just like in normal politics a select few rule and the rest follow.
anyway i don't see how AI could join star alliance after most of the founders gave their veto against it

[LJ]

Doesn't seem to go very well with 9W either... (though still better than Kingfisher)

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/busi ... 211085.cms

Maybe it's Star who thinks that having AI in the alliance at least guarantees that you have an Indian partner over time (and that it shouldn't gamble too much on 9W)....

[RoMax]

Of the 3 'full'-service airlines in India, 9W is in the best shape. Tough indeed, all 3 are not doing great, same with some of the smaller LCC's... Odd to see such an important and growing market with airlines that strugle to stay allive...

[sn-remember]

Odd ?
Look westwards and you might understand the obvious ?
BTW what the Indian subcontinental airlines experiment today is what the EU airline business risk experimenting very soon IF no restriction is implemented to decrease the pressure from the Gulf.
Note : As a side note, I wonder what the EU summits are useful for ... except dig a grave for our enterprises... sad (end of digression)

[RoMax]

Odd was not the right word indeed...

Btw, about Air India. One of their 787's will be sent to an air show in Hyderabad according to Boeing sources. It will have the full interior like AI ordered it. But it won't be delivered... The Indian Government is still debating wether to accept the 787's in AI. AI still demands 1 billion dollar of compensation from Boeing...as said before it seems AI wants Boeing to pay a part of their own mismanagement, the delay of their 787's is not responsible for a loss of 1 billion, so Boeing refuses this.
The already built 787's for AI are being held hostage due to this situation. L/N35 the first AI 787 to be delivered will be flown to Boeing field as he doesn't need any special work anymore at Everett.

[sn-remember]

Sad is the word to use in this case ...
Be sure AI are paying the best US lawyers to defend their case...
However, they (AI) do not represent a key account .. sooo they'll have to play the rules (like you and me I mean not like Al Baker and co ...
Ai are in dire straights ...
However they still are the 1st Indian carrier (to my knowledge). I believe they would be ill advised to sell the intra Indian division (former IC) ..
Anyhow the road map for them is difficult, same for any state controlled airline not (yet) able to fly on their own ..
One would say it's the role of the state controlling the airline to drive them on the tracks of consolidation and profitability, which condition any future privatisation.
When I think of AI, I also think of some other state owned carriers, like SA or TP, 2 favorite of mine ...
Back to topic .. What is Star playing at concerning the Indian market, opposing AI vs 9W ???
It's time they get coherent although I know that the Indian context makes this (coherence) very difficult.
It's often praise that arouse when commenting about 9W's performance .. .. However the Indian market is too volatile and impredictable.
Having Ai and 9W both join star is not impossible, eventually the 2 merging into a single entity ? Nobody can tell at least you and me ...

[cnc]

eventually the 2 merging into a single entity ? Nobody can tell at least you and me ...

its as probable as NVA and PS merging into a single party.
the main problem with star, AI, 9W is that there are different agenda's. LH vs some other key alliance members.

[sn26567]

All three major airlines of India are with severe problems, and Kingfisher probably has the worst (they should concentrate on brewing beer!), as they have to cut a big number of routes.

And the situation is not going to improve soon: Kingfisher Airlines, Air India and Jet Airways send an SOS to the government as banks refuse to give loans: http://aviationnewsdaily.com/2012/03/11 ... ive-loans/

[regi]

And the situation is not going to improve soon: Kingfisher Airlines, Air India and Jet Airways send an SOS to the government as banks refuse to give loans: http://aviationnewsdaily.com/2012/03/11 ... ive-loans/

Inflation is enormous in India. Prices go up by the day. Very difficult to make a business model on unknown prices.
Basic economics teach that with inflation, the interest rates increase dramatically. Inflation is a killer for investment because the companies cannot get any cheap money from the banks anymore. So they can not buy machines ( read : airplanes), consumables ( read: pre finance fuel contracts ), attract new staff ( because the salaries are on the rise ) etcetera.
As the aviation industry is a mid to long term business, I am not surprised that Indian companies are suffering dramatically.
Question: what is the difference with China? I suppose that the Chinese economy - which is still a communist country ! - is more protected because of the central guidance. But with the same inflation problems in China, we could see some chaos in the aviation industry there as well in the near future.

[sn26567]

Jet Airways chairman Naresh Goyal has said the carrier would be considering if it be joining either Skyteam or Star Alliance alliance ahead of additional long-haul expansion.

Jet plans to new destinations in China and Europe from 2013 with Beijing Capital (PEK), Frankfurt International (FRA), Munich Franz Josef Strauss International (MUC), Paris Charles de Gaulle (CDG), Rome Fiumicino Leonardo da Vinci International (FCO), Shanghai Pudong International (PVG) and Zurich Kloten (ZRH) being evaluated now.

Source: CH-Aviation

[sn26567]

Air India wants to talk to oneworld and Skyteam and give up on Star

Air India is planning to start talks with Oneworld and Skyteam over the next couple of months according to Indian civil aviation minister Ajit Singh giving up ambitions to join Star Alliance after the two parties had already agreed last year that Air India had still not met the minimum joining conditions.

Source: CH-Aviation

I wonder whether Air India will meet the minimum joining conditions of oneworld or Skyteam, unless they are way below those of Star Alliance.

[Conti764]

Air India wants to talk to oneworld and Skyteam and give up on Star

Air India is planning to start talks with Oneworld and Skyteam over the next couple of months according to Indian civil aviation minister Ajit Singh giving up ambitions to join Star Alliance after the two parties had already agreed last year that Air India had still not met the minimum joining conditions.

Source: CH-Aviation

I wonder whether Air India will meet the minimum joining conditions of oneworld or Skyteam, unless they are way below those of Star Alliance.

I wonder how much work had to be done for AI to enter Star Alliance. Ofcourse, being three years late is a blame on the company, but I have this feeling that Star Alliance deliberately blocked off an AI-entry into the alliance since 9W is a much better sweet for them to have in the basket.

[RoMax]

I wonder how much work had to be done for AI to enter Star Alliance. Ofcourse, being three years late is a blame on the company, but I have this feeling that Star Alliance deliberately blocked off an AI-entry into the alliance since 9W is a much better sweet for them to have in the basket.

Back in 2007 Air India was in much better shape and they were the perfect partner for Lufthansa that's strong in India (tough they dropped some destinations since). If LH wanted something in India, the ministry said 'yes, if you do ... for Air India'. And for the other Star members AI could also bring connections to their network.
But a lot has changed since then, 9W and Kingfisher became bigger and especially 9W worked out some very important partnerships with Star carriers (SN, Air Canada, ANA, United). AI could not do anything against 9W's way to the top in India. Many airlines in Star got tired of it, AI was still no member of the alliance as they messed up everything and in while they were messing things up Star airlines started to work together with 9W instead of Air India. Eventually AI got a final deadline, while Star made no secret of it anymore that they also wanted 9W...

So I would say Star tried to block-off AI since 2010-2011. They saw AI was still messing things up, still not able to join, while 9W also struggled because of the economic crisis, but they were doing much better. But Star stayed (and they had to do that) careful, otherwise the ministry would turn against Star Alliance and all their carriers flying to India or willing to fly to India.