Malaysia B772 flight MH17 AMS-KUL downed near Donetsk, Ukraine

[sn26567]

The flight MH17 was codeshared with KLM, which published the following release:

It is with great regret that KLM has learnt about the accident with flight MH17, codeshare KL4103, of Malaysia Airlines from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur. Our hearts go out to all families and friends of the passengers and crew on board of flight MH17.We are in contact with Malaysia Airlines to obtain further information. As a precautionary measure KLM avoids flying over the concerned territory.

All airlines now carefully avoid overflying Ukraine, as everyone can see on flightradar24.

[Zorba]

For the sake of it: shotdown has been confirmed:

@jonostrower: BREAKING WSJ: Intel Detected Surface Missile Launch, Tracked Explosion of #MH17, Official Says // Story to follow http://t.co/gAq9IU4nxf

[sn26567]

Zorba, your link is only available on subscription

It appears that there were four Belgians on board of MH17.

[Lysexpat]

Nato surely had an AWACS watching the area, so the thruth will/should come out one day.

With the ongoing conflict in Israel, the question can be asked if it is still wise to operate flights to TLV?

[Passenger]

From the conference at AMS, just a few minutes ago:

283 passengers + 15 crew (all Malaysian nationality)

154 Dutch citizens
27 from Australia
23 from Malaysia
11 from Indonesia
6 from the United Kingdom
4 from Germany
4 from Belgium
3 from the Philipines
1 from Canada

from 47 passengers, the nationality hasn't been established yet (names are known)

[Acid-drop]

So "they" shutdown the wrong plane ?
Who profits from the crime ?
Now its gonna become clearly an international matter...

[Flanker2]

That's an awful lot of Dutch people.

I can't imagine what would have gone through the passenger's minds as they were falling all the way down. One moment you're sitting down on your way to your holiday in or via KUL, the next you're in a broken off section of the aircraft and strapped to your seat, taking huge G's and gasping for air. Best case scenario, you're knocked out by the combination of low oxygen intake and high G's.

What started last year as a peaceful gathering in Kiev has evolved into a revolution and a civil war.
Whoever did this probably didn't intend to do it, (unless it was done on purpose by Ukraine, in an attempt to involve other countries in the conflict) but the fact is, this wouldn't have happened were it not for this meaningless revolution. For me, the EU and US politicians who have supported the rebellion and ensuing revolution, are equally responsible for this terrible tragedy.

[Conti764]

That's an awful lot of Dutch people.

I can't imagine what would have gone through the passenger's minds as they were falling all the way down. One moment you're sitting down on your way to your holiday in or via KUL, the next you're in a broken off section of the aircraft and strapped to your seat, taking huge G's and gasping for air. Best case scenario, you're knocked out by the combination of low oxygen intake and high G's.

I don't know, haven't been in the situation, but after 9/11 experts claimed that people falling to their dead probably didn't suffer 'that much' since they were likely to be dead already before touching the ground due to heart attacks out of fear.

[Flanker2]

That's an interesting perpsective. How likely is it to have a heart attack in such circumstances?

[Conti764]

What started last year as a peaceful gathering in Kiev has evolved into a revolution and a civil war.
Whoever did this probably didn't intend to do it, (unless it was done on purpose by Ukraine, in an attempt to involve other countries in the conflict) but the fact is, this wouldn't have happened were it not for this meaningless revolution. For me, the EU and US politicians who have supported the rebellion and ensuing revolution, are equally responsible for this terrible tragedy.

I suppose we can leave politics out of this, no?

About the crash itself... If I may to indicate one party I'd suspect to have taken down the jet, it are the rebels. The Ukrains, nor the Russians risk taking the blame for bringing down a civilian jet, especially when packed with civilians of other countries.

It's my guess the rebels have taken it down by mistake, aiming at what they probably thought was a military jet.

[Conti764]

That's an interesting perpsective. How likely is it to have a heart attack in such circumstances?

Falling to a certain dead at a speed we can't even imagine? Pretty likely, I guess... Another factor might be the angle in which the airplane falls to the ground. If you have a (near) horizontal crash, you're probably still alive when touching the ground and you might die from the impact itself, or from the circumstances around. When a plane falls to the ground nearly vertical, I guess you'd be dead before touching the ground.

[Passenger]

That's an interesting perpsective. How likely is it to have a heart attack in such circumstances?

Falling to a certain dead at a speed we can't even imagine? Pretty likely, I guess... Another factor might be the angle in which the airplane falls to the ground. If you have a (near) horizontal crash, you're probably still alive when touching the ground and you might die from the impact itself, or from the circumstances around. When a plane falls to the ground nearly vertical, I guess you'd be dead before touching the ground.

CNN has shown about three seconds of images of the aircraft up in the sky, falling down, with one engine/wing on fire. High speed vertically down.

Apparently this weapon system was involved:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system

Not one that can be used by poorly-trained amateurs...

Both the Russian and Ukrainian Land Forces use this radar-guided medium range missile system.

Frank van Kappen, former major-general of the Dutch Marines, told on Dutch tv that it was probably this surface-to-air-missile. "With those shoulder rocket launchers you see on tv, you cannot reach an aircraft at 10 kms" he said. "However, those Buks missiles are not something that one can just launch by pushing a button. It has to be connected to a radar vehicle and to a third commando vehicle. Furthermore, the information this systems gives is very accurate because it's designed to separate civil aircraft from military fighters. You need to be well trained to use it, and you can't just go for a lucky shot", the former major-general said.

[Flanker2]

About the crash itself... If I may to indicate one party I'd suspect to have taken down the jet, it are the rebels. The Ukrains, nor the Russians risk taking the blame for bringing down a civilian jet, especially when packed with civilians of other countries.

It's my guess the rebels have taken it down by mistake, aiming at what they probably thought was a military jet.

If it were done on purpose, I suspect the Ukrainian intelligence would be more likely to have done it.
The rebels shot down a few of their planes the days before. The best way to make them stop shooting SAM's is to shoot a civilian aircraft packed with non-Ukrainian passengers, so that they stop firing SAM's, while also winning the support of the media and the international community in the ongoing conflict, and even potentially breaking ties between the rebels and the Russians.
After it happened, you immediately accuse the rebels, plant some evidence in the form of alleged intercepted phone calls and voila. It's convenient for the Ukrainians.

I think that if the rebels have shot it down, chances are high that it was by mistake. If so, I think that they might admit that in the coming days, highlight that they have been hit by Ukrainian airstrikes in the past weeks, and that this was intended to defend themselves from such attacks.

Also, the current Ukrainian government is now responsible for airspace management.
A NOTAM was issued to close that particular airspace up to FL320, but the aircraft was at FL330.
If they knew that the rebels had a weapon of which they know the specifications well, including altitude range, they should have closed the airspace down completely.

Hence, whether the rebels did it or they did it, the Ukrainian government share responsibility in that they allowed commercial flights over a "danger zone".

[Acid-drop]

Some say poutine may have been flying very close on his way back from the brics summit in brazil...

[Established02]

Some say poutine may have been flying very close on his way back from the brics summit in brazil...

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=GRU-SVO

[Established02]

"De twee toestellen lijken veel op elkaar. Hun contouren zijn hetzelfde en ze zijn ongeveer even groot. Ook de kleuren lijken van afstand veel op elkaar’, aldus de anonieme bron."
http://www.standaard.be/cnt/dmf20140717_01183308

Is Putin flying a two engined Tu204? At least when flying to BRU he was on an IL96. It does take some imagination to state that a 4 engined IL96 would resemble a 2 engined B777.

[Acid-drop]

Some say poutine may have been flying very close on his way back from the brics summit in brazil...

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=GRU-SVO

Clear enough. I also find strange that he flies over ukraine anyway.

[Malaysia]

Who says he does? Why would Aeroflot flights fly around Ukraine but Poetin fly trough it? Come one man...

[regi]

First of all: this is absolutely unacceptable, an unbearable tragedy for all those innoscent victims.
Now my comment:
Here we go again, the media circus is completely controlled and disinformed, and used to tell provocative presumptions.
The fact that the rebels would have claimed downing again a transport airplane is understandable. But it doesn't mean that they have anything to do with it. It is a very confusing situation over there, and I can imagine that they are proud to have downed again an enemy plane. Without realising that they are unable to do so, because ... they have no acces to those so called BUK missiles.

And where does this BUK missile story come from? Do your reading guys... from the USA.

Oh, small detail: who operates in that area BUK missiles? Russia, in their territory, so not in rebel controlled territory. And... Ukrain. Yep. They have them, and they even illegaly sold them to Georgia, where they were used to shoot down Russian jets.

I don't accept this crap story. Do you guys realize who shot down a civilian airplane? Ukrain, with a S-200 surface to air missile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Ai ... light_1812

Not a danger zone? So why does the USA forbids its carriers to overfly that area since April?

We westerners are playing with fire, on the back of innoscent civilians.
We must believe all this BS. Simple example: the USA came quickly with that crap about a BUK missile, and their radar detection system blablabla. So... they should than be able to pinpoint by - let's say 10 meters - the origin from that missile . Nope. No further explanation.

Please dear members: don't jump on that train. Don't believe it because it was on Twitter.
Do your reading and draw your own conclusions.

Personnal theory:
(again) a hacked air defence system. So a missile from the Russian or the Ukrainian military.
Can be a air launched missile as well. ( again, why should we automaticallly believe the USA , see the downing of the Iranian Airbus by the Vincennes cruiser and the denial by the USA for years )
I can hardly believe that Ukrain would have done this by purpose, that is provoking Russia too much. Except... some rogue elements in their recently and quickly reorganised forces could have their own agenda.

I am curious to hear the Russian answer on those allegations. Because their air defense system tracks missiles very precisely. ( of which that BUK is a part ) So if the USA claims that their radar system saw a SAM, the Russians would have seen it even quicker.
And Ukrain, who operates this same system, should also be able to provide the exact location of the launching of the missile.
(Oh, still no news from MH370 - which I also claim to be a victim of a hacked air defense system - untill proven otherwise)

[Malaysia]

How about this.

9M-MRD first flight was on 17/07/1998 on a THURSDAY.
9M-MRD last flight was as flight MH17 on 17/07/2014 on a THURSDAY.