Air Belgium in 2023

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Bracebrace
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Bracebrace »

Matt wrote: 11 Jan 2023, 13:50
Payload available (fuel, passengers, cargo etc) for each type would be about

...

Johannesburg is a HOT AND HIGH airport. Even the A359 from Delta struggles to do the ATL-JNB route. It makes it barely.

Note how well the 346 and 343 are performing out of JNB. There is a reason why SAA had so many. You NEED power to get out of JNB. Also note the runway length of JNB. Over 4000 meters. Why you think that is? :roll: If you ever flew to JNB: didn't you find it weird that the take off roll is exceptionally long?
That sounds like a "at the bar with a beer" explanation... (nothing negative, but that's how stories go along in this world)

First off, payload is paying-load: pax & cargo. Fuel is not payload. Important because payload is limited with a maximum zero fuel weight.

Secondly: the reason why a twin has a disandvantage in hot & high conditions has little to do with runway length in itself. High density altitude has an aerodynamic effect (higher true airspeeds required) and (maybe) less thrust available. But twins and quads are hit equally hard by the reduced aerodynamic performance (increased true airspeeds required) and less thrust available (if you need full thrust)

Because you talk about runway length, it is actually an interesting idea to compare twins and quads. The advantage of a quad vs a twin is (always, not strictly hot & high) the engine out climb performance. A twin is hit harder in the "2nd segment" compared to the 4 engined aircraft. For this reason you will find that twins are actually higher powered than quads. And because quads need "less total thrust" to cope with engine failure regulations, you will actually find that they are quickly field limited. In other words: if you would compare similar takeoff performance of a quad and a twin, you would see that the twin would takeoff with less runway required because it uses more power. The long runway is long because of density, and because the quad doesn't accelerate like the twin.

On lower altitude airfields, a twin can be restricted by terrain and use alternative procedures to avoid terrain and lower the 2nd climb segment. At high density altitude, this is not an option anymore. You can "unbalance" the takeoff performance, but that effect is only limited as at high density you already have increased true airspeeds/groundspeeds. There is also tire speeds and brake energy in case of a high speed reject to take into account.

I'm not familiar with the A330-NEO, I know some A320 had a "thrust bump" option, I've seen it in 737-NG FCOMs as well. This is a modern world of jet engines flying around with derated engines, thrust limited by money and maintenance plans (and not by capability), the thrust bump option allows increase of thrust for a specific takeoff situation (unlike the water ingestion used by the 747 back in the day, which "boosted" the engine).

Anyway, some background to show you that if you would look at runway length and thrust, the twins are the winner... but it is hit hard in the possible engine out case due to the high density. Compare the A340-300 to the A330neo. The A340 is probably the most underpowered jet in the skies these days. It is so underpowered, ATC probably wouldn't even notice it had an engine failure :D

Stij
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Stij »

A A340 doesn't really c;limb... it flies straight ahead and "climbs" because the earth is round...

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Atlantis
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Atlantis »

sn26567 wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 11:34
JOVAN2 wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 10:48 On the other hand TuiFly Belgium offers trips to Mauritius, but via Dubai with Emirates.

Maybe it would not be stupid for TuiFly B and Air B to sit together and use the resources and planes available here in Belgium, rather than giving the business to ME airlines, who are cannibalizing the European market.
Travel organisations, in this case TUI Belgium and not TUIfly Belgium, have to secure flights long in advance. Therefore, TUI Belgium made a deal with Emirates before even Air Belgium started flying to Mauritius. OTOH, Air Belgium has not yet got the time to prove itself to be a reliable partner on that destination. If Air Belgium maintains regular flights to Mauritius in the long run, no doubt that TUI Belgium will examine the possibility to cooperate with the airline.

One should also not forget that Air Belgium is flying to Mauritius only once or twice a week depending on the season, while Emirates flies twice daily on both legs (BRU-DXB and DXB-MRU), giving more flexibility to vacationers.

TUIfly Belgium itself simply doesn't have the customer base or the capacity to fly to Mauritius.
The customer base is indeed an important one. The Belgian traveller is very reserved and not adventurous. They only goes to places they know. That's why Spain, Greece etc are always on the top. This in huge contrast with the Netherlands where they love to travel long haul. Their hunger for long destinations is back.

Even a Belgian population of 11M is not a security for long haul if you look at the behaviour.
That's why it's crucial to have the Roadshows to the neighbour countries. To The Netherlands is almost on a yearly basis but to France, Luxembourg or Germany is not existing which you miss a huge catch area.

Delta Airlines is going to offer now also direct connection via train link from The Netherlands to Brussels Airport. This to increase their capacity at BRU. AMS is of course not pleased about that.

To have the long haul back at BRU is the first priority for the moment. Of course first via regular flights but also via charters

JOVAN2
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by JOVAN2 »

Atlantis wrote: 14 Jan 2023, 16:45
sn26567 wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 11:34
JOVAN2 wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 10:48 On the other hand TuiFly Belgium offers trips to Mauritius, but via Dubai with Emirates.

Maybe it would not be stupid for TuiFly B and Air B to sit together and use the resources and planes available here in Belgium, rather than giving the business to ME airlines, who are cannibalizing the European market.
Travel organisations, in this case TUI Belgium and not TUIfly Belgium, have to secure flights long in advance. Therefore, TUI Belgium made a deal with Emirates before even Air Belgium started flying to Mauritius. OTOH, Air Belgium has not yet got the time to prove itself to be a reliable partner on that destination. If Air Belgium maintains regular flights to Mauritius in the long run, no doubt that TUI Belgium will examine the possibility to cooperate with the airline.

One should also not forget that Air Belgium is flying to Mauritius only once or twice a week depending on the season, while Emirates flies twice daily on both legs (BRU-DXB and DXB-MRU), giving more flexibility to vacationers.

TUIfly Belgium itself simply doesn't have the customer base or the capacity to fly to Mauritius.
The customer base is indeed an important one. The Belgian traveller is very reserved and not adventurous. They only goes to places they know. That's why Spain, Greece etc are always on the top. This in huge contrast with the Netherlands where they love to travel long haul. Their hunger for long destinations is back.

Even a Belgian population of 11M is not a security for long haul if you look at the behaviour.
That's why it's crucial to have the Roadshows to the neighbour countries. To The Netherlands is almost on a yearly basis but to France, Luxembourg or Germany is not existing which you miss a huge catch area.

Delta Airlines is going to offer now also direct connection via train link from The Netherlands to Brussels Airport. This to increase their capacity at BRU. AMS is of course not pleased about that.

To have the long haul back at BRU is the first priority for the moment. Of course first via regular flights but also via charters
There was a big Vakantiebeurs in NL that just ended yesterday.
This show attracts 100.000 visitors. That would have been an excellent occasion for Air Belgium to be present & promote their flights to (Dutch) Carribean...and South Africa.
Visit Wallonia was there. These kind of shows are very imporetant to meet thousands of potential customers.

The catchment area for Air Belgium is 20 million people in one of the richest areas of the world.

Let us hope they will be at least present at the Brussels Vakantiesalon (???)

TLspotting
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by TLspotting »

JOVAN2 wrote: 16 Jan 2023, 12:08
Atlantis wrote: 14 Jan 2023, 16:45
sn26567 wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 11:34
Travel organisations, in this case TUI Belgium and not TUIfly Belgium, have to secure flights long in advance. Therefore, TUI Belgium made a deal with Emirates before even Air Belgium started flying to Mauritius. OTOH, Air Belgium has not yet got the time to prove itself to be a reliable partner on that destination. If Air Belgium maintains regular flights to Mauritius in the long run, no doubt that TUI Belgium will examine the possibility to cooperate with the airline.

One should also not forget that Air Belgium is flying to Mauritius only once or twice a week depending on the season, while Emirates flies twice daily on both legs (BRU-DXB and DXB-MRU), giving more flexibility to vacationers.

TUIfly Belgium itself simply doesn't have the customer base or the capacity to fly to Mauritius.
The customer base is indeed an important one. The Belgian traveller is very reserved and not adventurous. They only goes to places they know. That's why Spain, Greece etc are always on the top. This in huge contrast with the Netherlands where they love to travel long haul. Their hunger for long destinations is back.

Even a Belgian population of 11M is not a security for long haul if you look at the behaviour.
That's why it's crucial to have the Roadshows to the neighbour countries. To The Netherlands is almost on a yearly basis but to France, Luxembourg or Germany is not existing which you miss a huge catch area.

Delta Airlines is going to offer now also direct connection via train link from The Netherlands to Brussels Airport. This to increase their capacity at BRU. AMS is of course not pleased about that.

To have the long haul back at BRU is the first priority for the moment. Of course first via regular flights but also via charters
There was a big Vakantiebeurs in NL that just ended yesterday.
This show attracts 100.000 visitors. That would have been an excellent occasion for Air Belgium to be present & promote their flights to (Dutch) Carribean...and South Africa.
Visit Wallonia was there. These kind of shows are very imporetant to meet thousands of potential customers.

The catchment area for Air Belgium is 20 million people in one of the richest areas of the world.

Let us hope they will be at least present at the Brussels Vakantiesalon (???)
I know that CRL is going to be there, I have some doubts however concerning AB.
Hi. I'm Thibault Lapers. @ThibaultLapers & @TLspotting

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Atlantis
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Atlantis »

JOVAN2 wrote: 16 Jan 2023, 12:08
Atlantis wrote: 14 Jan 2023, 16:45
sn26567 wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 11:34
Travel organisations, in this case TUI Belgium and not TUIfly Belgium, have to secure flights long in advance. Therefore, TUI Belgium made a deal with Emirates before even Air Belgium started flying to Mauritius. OTOH, Air Belgium has not yet got the time to prove itself to be a reliable partner on that destination. If Air Belgium maintains regular flights to Mauritius in the long run, no doubt that TUI Belgium will examine the possibility to cooperate with the airline.

One should also not forget that Air Belgium is flying to Mauritius only once or twice a week depending on the season, while Emirates flies twice daily on both legs (BRU-DXB and DXB-MRU), giving more flexibility to vacationers.

TUIfly Belgium itself simply doesn't have the customer base or the capacity to fly to Mauritius.
The customer base is indeed an important one. The Belgian traveller is very reserved and not adventurous. They only goes to places they know. That's why Spain, Greece etc are always on the top. This in huge contrast with the Netherlands where they love to travel long haul. Their hunger for long destinations is back.

Even a Belgian population of 11M is not a security for long haul if you look at the behaviour.
That's why it's crucial to have the Roadshows to the neighbour countries. To The Netherlands is almost on a yearly basis but to France, Luxembourg or Germany is not existing which you miss a huge catch area.

Delta Airlines is going to offer now also direct connection via train link from The Netherlands to Brussels Airport. This to increase their capacity at BRU. AMS is of course not pleased about that.

To have the long haul back at BRU is the first priority for the moment. Of course first via regular flights but also via charters
There was a big Vakantiebeurs in NL that just ended yesterday.
This show attracts 100.000 visitors. That would have been an excellent occasion for Air Belgium to be present & promote their flights to (Dutch) Carribean...and South Africa.
Visit Wallonia was there. These kind of shows are very imporetant to meet thousands of potential customers.

The catchment area for Air Belgium is 20 million people in one of the richest areas of the world.

Let us hope they will be at least present at the Brussels Vakantiesalon (???)
You simply have to be there on such kind of occasions. Being visible is crucial.

Matt
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Joined: 14 Nov 2018, 09:20

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Matt »

Bracebrace wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 23:39
Matt wrote: 11 Jan 2023, 13:50
Payload available (fuel, passengers, cargo etc) for each type would be about

...

Johannesburg is a HOT AND HIGH airport. Even the A359 from Delta struggles to do the ATL-JNB route. It makes it barely.

Note how well the 346 and 343 are performing out of JNB. There is a reason why SAA had so many. You NEED power to get out of JNB. Also note the runway length of JNB. Over 4000 meters. Why you think that is? :roll: If you ever flew to JNB: didn't you find it weird that the take off roll is exceptionally long?
That sounds like a "at the bar with a beer" explanation... (nothing negative, but that's how stories go along in this world)
Owh I know that the entire explanation is an "at the bar with a beer" explanation. I am well aware of the nuances you made. (except the payload, I was always told by Airbus that the payload is cargo+pax+fuel, is also defined like that in their scade sheets... Then again, the nuance between design and operation of an aircraft is a key difference in that regard. )

The runway lengths was to make a point about the fact that you need quite some power to get out of JNB. Of course, Twins and quads are hit equally hard.

I don't think the A330-NEO has a thrust-bump option.

JOVAN2
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by JOVAN2 »

Atlantis wrote: 16 Jan 2023, 17:25
Delta Airlines is going to offer now also direct connection via train link from The Netherlands to Brussels Airport. This to increase their capacity at BRU. AMS is of course not pleased about that.

To have the long haul back at BRU is the first priority for the moment. Of course first via regular flights but also via charters

Can you elaborate on the Delta NL-BRU connections ?.
Does it mean that you can buy your train ticket together with your airline ticket ?

Delta has only one destination from BRU I believe and that is JFK.
No Atlanta or other places.

One would hope that BRU team responsible for attracting new airlines/destinations would jump on this occasion to go and discuss more business with Delta. AMS is still chaotic, and the the airport taxes are among highest in Europe.
BRU is now better known in NL, but Aiports in Weeze, Dusseldorf and CRL attract still more NL-PAX that BRU.

BRU, like AB or SN were also not preseent at the Vakantiebeurs in Utrecht last week (100.000 visitors).
Sleeping beauties ?? Or simply lazy marketing people ?? Or really a management problem.??

crew1990
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by crew1990 »

fcw wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 17:11
Boavida wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 15:57 This is bad! Josh Cahill is one of the most popular and most watched airline reviewers on Youtube....

Cold/bad food, broken IFE, bad headphones, wi-fi not working, high price,... oh dear.
To me Josh Cahill looks like a spoiled brat who’s pissed off because he didn’t receive a free upgrade.
I do not agree, that's actually one of the only youtuber who still fly economy to make review on it. He did the same with Brussels Airlines and the story is quite different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5Gw5Hzq3pY

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Vic Diesel
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Vic Diesel »

crew1990 wrote: 17 Jan 2023, 15:19
fcw wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 17:11
Boavida wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 15:57 This is bad! Josh Cahill is one of the most popular and most watched airline reviewers on Youtube....

Cold/bad food, broken IFE, bad headphones, wi-fi not working, high price,... oh dear.
To me Josh Cahill looks like a spoiled brat who’s pissed off because he didn’t receive a free upgrade.
I do not agree, that's actually one of the only youtuber who still fly economy to make review on it. He did the same with Brussels Airlines and the story is quite different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5Gw5Hzq3pY
Talking about a spoiled brat who only gives positive reviews because he is constantly upgraded for free... you must mean Sam Chui, who long ago sold his moral integrity to the airlines. Of course he does have some interesting videos, but when it comes to trip reviews, he is the most biased and dishonest aviation YouTuber I've ever seen.

Josh is flying economy pretty regularly to show us reviews from all kinds of airlines and classes.
Best regards,
Viktor

(Budapest-born, Vienna-raised, Brussels-based)

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sn26567
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by sn26567 »

Air Belgium took delivery of one A330-200P2F, reg. OE-LAJ, MSN 717, on lease from Altavair AirFinance. Former operator Etihad Airways (A6-EYF).
André
ex Sabena #26567

pigthebest
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by pigthebest »

According to Skyliner.ch, Air Belgium will have third 748. An ex-ABC with the new reg. OE-LFI.
Here's the link:https://www.skyliner-aviation.de/regdb. ... av4&page=4

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Airbus330lover
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Airbus330lover »

Everyone know the future start of BRU-BKK, ... some questions remains open :
- When ?
- Codeshare with TG ?
- If codeshared, possibilities to transit to other destinations with luggage transfer (TG can help) ?

Any info ?

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luchtzak
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by luchtzak »

Airbus330lover wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 10:59 Everyone know the future start of BRU-BKK, ... some questions remains open :
- When ?
- Codeshare with TG ?
- If codeshared, possibilities to transit to other destinations with luggage transfer (TG can help) ?

Any info ?
I must have missed something, when did Air Belgium announce the start-up to Bangkok ?

Lux_avi
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Lux_avi »

luchtzak wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 12:29
Airbus330lover wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 10:59 Everyone know the future start of BRU-BKK, ... some questions remains open :
- When ?
- Codeshare with TG ?
- If codeshared, possibilities to transit to other destinations with luggage transfer (TG can help) ?

Any info ?
I must have missed something, when did Air Belgium announce the start-up to Bangkok ?
Never... :|

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Vic Diesel
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Vic Diesel »

Airbus330lover wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 10:59 Everyone know the future start of BRU-BKK, ... some questions remains open :
- When ?
- Codeshare with TG ?
- If codeshared, possibilities to transit to other destinations with luggage transfer (TG can help) ?

Any info ?
Even if this rumor (is there a source or just hearsay?) were true, I cannot imagine TG as member of Star Alliance teaming up with a non-member airline for a codeshare or any other kind of help.
Best regards,
Viktor

(Budapest-born, Vienna-raised, Brussels-based)

JOVAN2
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by JOVAN2 »

Vic Diesel wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 13:56
Airbus330lover wrote: 24 Jan 2023, 10:59 Everyone know the future start of BRU-BKK, ... some questions remains open :
- When ?
- Codeshare with TG ?
- If codeshared, possibilities to transit to other destinations with luggage transfer (TG can help) ?

Any info ?
Even if this rumor (is there a source or just hearsay?) were true, I cannot imagine TG as member of Star Alliance teaming up with a non-member airline for a codeshare or any other kind of help.
I honestly hope they will not start BKK as a destination. Most probably TG will come back on the route and than we will have a scenario that we have seen with HONG KONG, where CATHAY started flying about same tim to BRU as AB started flying to HKG.

Better choice would be LAX, SFO and eventually closer collaboration with TuiFly Belgium to Carribean and Mexico.

Soon there will be the Vakantiesalon in Brussels wher AB participatres. (like Tui, CRL, ..) Who knows they might announce new destinations at that occasion.
February March is the time people start thinking about long-haul holidays.

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Atlantis
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Atlantis »

Curious where the third B747-8F and the A330F will fly as most of the time the cargo flights are cancelled.

In the cargo world it is normal that you have cancelled cargo flights bcs of many reasons, but that much like with KF is not OK. Even with their current 2 B748F they can't make a difference in the monthly figures

flightlover
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by flightlover »

Atlantis wrote: 27 Jan 2023, 23:37 Curious where the third B747-8F and the A330F will fly as most of the time the cargo flights are cancelled.

In the cargo world it is normal that you have cancelled cargo flights bcs of many reasons, but that much like with KF is not OK. Even with their current 2 B748F they can't make a difference in the monthly figures
They have had lot's of issues comming up due to the time these frames had been parked in the dessert. Not to say I hope they will keep underutilising the b747's for a few months and keep some back-up capacity, instead off planning all of them to the max. At least until the uptime performance of the planes is proven to be better than now (although it did improve already).

Lux_avi
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Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Lux_avi »

Atlantis wrote: 27 Jan 2023, 23:37 Curious where the third B747-8F and the A330F will fly as most of the time the cargo flights are cancelled.

In the cargo world it is normal that you have cancelled cargo flights bcs of many reasons, but that much like with KF is not OK. Even with their current 2 B748F they can't make a difference in the monthly figures
Perhaps the effect of the Chinese NY?
Everything is quiet for 2 weeks down there.

The 747s seem to be quite occupied apart from that, with new destinations coming too.

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