Air Belgium in 2023

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Post Reply
rwandan-flyer
Posts: 978
Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 12:30

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by rwandan-flyer »

VoloperTe wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 09:24
JOVAN2 wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 00:41
crew1990 wrote: 07 Jan 2023, 23:30 Review of an Air Belgium kind of empty flight to Mauritius

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zEIYWwrwyw
AB would better leave Mauritius to the French. Same story as Guadeloupe & Martinique.
Or Curacao & Bonaire: leave it to the Dutch.

concentrate on US West Coast, Mexico & Brazil. And RSA.
Sorry but have you seen or heard any advertisement of Air Belgium on TV or radio in Belgium? NO! In the Nederland, France or Germany to fill flights to Mauritius, Curacao, Punta Cana,... ?? NO advertisement !
Air Belgium is managed in an amateur way... what does the sales&marketing team ??

I guess that most of these seats are sold through tour operator , like many airlines coming to Mauritius.

Tuifly Nordic, LOT Polish Airlines, Austrian Airlines or Bulgaria Air serve Mauritus.

You have the same thing with Tanzania (mostly in Zanzibar), Kenya, Madagascar and Seychelles. Plenty non stop flights from Central & East Europe to East and Southern Africa.


I don' think that Austria, Romania, Norway or Buglaria are bigger market than Belgium in these parts of Africa. All these countries in Africa or Europe that i cited are well served by Air France, Lufthansa and Mid East Airlines. So competition is high. However it seems that some airlines can sustain & make profits on these non stop flights (LOT, TAROM Romania, Neos, Smartwings, Enter Air Poland, Austrian Airlines,...). Some these airlines make a fuel stop in Egypt because the B737 can't fly directly which leads to more spendings.

It's not always the airline that wants to serve the route, but authorities of an African country which wants through Tour Operator based in Africa or in Europe to attract more tourist.
Rwanda Aviation News (Drones, Air Force, Civil Aviation, Space, Air Balloon): https://www.facebook.com/RwandAn-Flyer-153177931456873

User avatar
Conti764
Posts: 1891
Joined: 21 Sep 2007, 23:21

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Conti764 »

JOVAN2 wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 00:41
crew1990 wrote: 07 Jan 2023, 23:30 Review of an Air Belgium kind of empty flight to Mauritius

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zEIYWwrwyw
AB would better leave Mauritius to the French. Same story as Guadeloupe & Martinique.
Or Curacao & Bonaire: leave it to the Dutch.

concentrate on US West Coast, Mexico & Brazil. And RSA.
Why would you strengthen AF and KL monopolies on those routes? Try to catch pax from Southern-NL and Northern-FR by undercutting KL and AF prices.

Same goes for SN, but they are on a tight leach with LH.

crew1990
Posts: 1482
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by crew1990 »

Conti764 wrote: 10 Jan 2023, 20:19
JOVAN2 wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 00:41
crew1990 wrote: 07 Jan 2023, 23:30 Review of an Air Belgium kind of empty flight to Mauritius

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zEIYWwrwyw
AB would better leave Mauritius to the French. Same story as Guadeloupe & Martinique.
Or Curacao & Bonaire: leave it to the Dutch.

concentrate on US West Coast, Mexico & Brazil. And RSA.
Why would you strengthen AF and KL monopolies on those routes? Try to catch pax from Southern-NL and Northern-FR by undercutting KL and AF prices.

Same goes for SN, but they are on a tight leach with LH.
This is what SN is doing, booking a flight from Paris is often cheaper than booking on from Brussels, SN is investing a lot on catching those traffic to BRU, some days there are 3 morning A320 (540pax!!) from CDG because the 2 flights are already full. Beside LYS, MRS and TLS having an early departure in the morning to feed the network, from S23, there will also be an early departure from BOD. SN is competitive on the french market.

In the case of Air Belgium, they have no partnership in BRU, no flight to feed their network and a very small fleet meaning a high cost strucure. They simply can't beat SN, AF or KL. FIH is the only route with enough potential client to make the flight viable without connecting PAX and this will probably never happend. Another thing they should look into is operating the long haul flight on behalve of TUI. But there seems to be no relationship between both airlines. I really don't see how this airlines can survive on the PAX market. They survive because of capital injection from stakeholder, but they burn it directly with their unsustanable cost structure and bad management decision.

PttU
Posts: 419
Joined: 24 Nov 2015, 15:07

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by PttU »

crew1990 wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 13:04 To be honest, the only route I could see them succeed as a passenger airline is Kinshasa. But will never happend unless they got traffic right. All the rest is deem to fait without right partner.

It’s time for Air Belgium to stop their PAX operation and focus on cargo. If not they will be forced to stop all activities.
What if... they're already deciding their routes on the belly revenue? Given that Mr Terzakis has a strong Cargo background: what of they first find some routes with potential for cargo, but not full cargo planes, and on top of that base income of the cargo payload, they add the revenue of the passengers. That could maybe explain some of the (on first sight) weird choices of destinations?

Matt
Posts: 219
Joined: 14 Nov 2018, 09:20

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Matt »

PttU wrote: 10 Jan 2023, 23:32
crew1990 wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 13:04 To be honest, the only route I could see them succeed as a passenger airline is Kinshasa. But will never happend unless they got traffic right. All the rest is deem to fait without right partner.

It’s time for Air Belgium to stop their PAX operation and focus on cargo. If not they will be forced to stop all activities.
What if... they're already deciding their routes on the belly revenue? Given that Mr Terzakis has a strong Cargo background: what of they first find some routes with potential for cargo, but not full cargo planes, and on top of that base income of the cargo payload, they add the revenue of the passengers. That could maybe explain some of the (on first sight) weird choices of destinations?
This could make sense. But then why not start the JNB route with those A340's they had? They should invest in another plane for the BRU-JNB route then.

And why continue to CPT after?

Matt
Posts: 219
Joined: 14 Nov 2018, 09:20

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Matt »

JOVAN2 wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 00:41 And RSA.
Owh my God really? I just gave you an explanation on why it's a bad idea.

Here some real numbers for JNB on a 30 deg day, QNH 1013, no wind, runway 03L :

Maximum takeoff weight under the conditions with most favorable takeoff configuration (optimum flap setting, optimum thrust, and packs off)

748 - 346,800 kg
346 - 346,000 kg
77W - 302,800 kg
343 - 248,000 kg
333 - 215,000 kg
339 - 223,000 kg

Payload available (fuel, passengers, cargo etc) for each type would be about

346 187,700 kg
748 193,700 kg
77W 134,200 kg
343 122,800 kg
333 95,100 kg
339 100,000 kg

These numbers get worse for the A333 and A339 when it gets hotter and/or more wind. (I really don't feel like doing that calculation )

Johannesburg is a HOT AND HIGH airport. Even the A359 from Delta struggles to do the ATL-JNB route. It makes it barely.

Note how well the 346 and 343 are performing out of JNB. There is a reason why SAA had so many. You NEED power to get out of JNB. Also note the runway length of JNB. Over 4000 meters. Why you think that is? :roll: If you ever flew to JNB: didn't you find it weird that the take off roll is exceptionally long?
They used to say that JNB was only serviceable long haul with Quad-jets. With the introduction of the 77W this changed a bit (but the GE90 is also just a monster of an engine) . the trent XWB and Genx/Trent1000 also perform well, but those are also really powerful engines. The Trent 7000 is literally a Trent1000, scaled down and a lot less power.

Using an A339 to JNB is just a bad idea. Sounds good, doesn't work. And the more that I go on about it and crunching the numbers, the more puzzled I am on why Air Belgium is serving this route with an A339.

Can you come up with 1 good reason on why AB should continue to serve JNB ? (apart from the fact that your colleagues want to avoid AMS/FRA :roll: )

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 40815
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by sn26567 »

A new ACMI contract for Air Belgium: Condor is now relying on an A330-300 from Wamos Air and an A330-900 from Air Belgium for long-haul flights to Punta Cana, New York and Toronto, after ending the A330-300 wet-lease contract with SmartLynx earlier than planned due to issues.

Air Belgium thus returns to the Dominican Republic!
André
ex Sabena #26567

PttU
Posts: 419
Joined: 24 Nov 2015, 15:07

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by PttU »

Matt wrote: 11 Jan 2023, 10:20
PttU wrote: 10 Jan 2023, 23:32
crew1990 wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 13:04 To be honest, the only route I could see them succeed as a passenger airline is Kinshasa. But will never happend unless they got traffic right. All the rest is deem to fait without right partner.

It’s time for Air Belgium to stop their PAX operation and focus on cargo. If not they will be forced to stop all activities.
What if... they're already deciding their routes on the belly revenue? Given that Mr Terzakis has a strong Cargo background: what of they first find some routes with potential for cargo, but not full cargo planes, and on top of that base income of the cargo payload, they add the revenue of the passengers. That could maybe explain some of the (on first sight) weird choices of destinations?
This could make sense. But then why not start the JNB route with those A340's they had? They should invest in another plane for the BRU-JNB route then.

And why continue to CPT after?
Matt wrote: 11 Jan 2023, 13:50 And the more that I go on about it and crunching the numbers, the more puzzled I am on why Air Belgium is serving this route with an A339.
Because they don't have the A340's anymore?
I don't know if they have the luxury to design their routes to their fleet... Did they still have their A340's (and for how long) when their South African ops started? What if a nice (cargo) opportunity came up to JNB/CPT, which could be completed by a few pax while they didn't have their A340's anymore? And in the cargo world, it could be some shipments from BRU to JNB and CPT to BRU, hence the triangle.
Even as enthusiasts on this forum, we can only see the tip of the iceberg of information the company had to make a certain decision, whether it was a good or a bad decision...

TLspotting
Posts: 3075
Joined: 19 Mar 2017, 10:22
Location: Uccle/Ukkel, BE
Contact:

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by TLspotting »

PttU wrote: 11 Jan 2023, 20:42 Because they don't have the A340's anymore?
I don't know if they have the luxury to design their routes to their fleet... Did they still have their A340's (and for how long) when their South African ops started? What if a nice (cargo) opportunity came up to JNB/CPT, which could be completed by a few pax while they didn't have their A340's anymore? And in the cargo world, it could be some shipments from BRU to JNB and CPT to BRU, hence the triangle.
Even as enthusiasts on this forum, we can only see the tip of the iceberg of information the company had to make a certain decision, whether it was a good or a bad decision...
Air Belgium used the Airbus A343 from March 2018 till March 2022, SA ops were started in September 2022. However, I doubted a lot that keeping only 2 aircraft was the best idea, given the fact that they had four -not that old- A343, that could have been used for aux operations such as ACMI.

LOT used 3 (even 4) aircraft at once and I think that now even with the expansion that some airlines got because passengers wanted to go on holiday, they could have missed something.

In an article to be published, I hope soon, I mention the fact that Air Belgium has now a solid partnership, the one with Air-Link. Last year, Terzakis said that they were working with a Scandinavian airline... Which one? There's no result till now. And I personally think that AB missed an opportunity with Ryanair in Brussels, that could have worked, but the CEO has always been away from this idea.

In Brussels, I have the feeling that there are screwed. The only way to get something connecting would be the return of easyJet, also partnering with a few other airlines. It is the whole point, there is no other solution, as the only international train to stop at Brussels Airport is NS International's Intercity between Brussels and Amsterdam. HS services are gone. Every other airline is going to give one to two destinations. Passengers don't want to go from A to B, via C, D, E or even F.

Furthermore, Terzakis mentions Air Mauritius, still nowhere to be seen... Also there is still this kind of ghost partnership with Air Caraïbes. First it was told that from both PTP & FDF, you could go to Saint-Martin, I never saw that on AB's website... Also to Curaçao, an invisible partnership. And now the only partnership they give is between PTP and FDF and the way back... What a partnership !

At the end, we could hope that if Bangkok is launched, they could make a partnership with VietJetAir or even AirAsia.
Hi. I'm Thibault Lapers. @ThibaultLapers & @TLspotting

fcw
Posts: 759
Joined: 01 Nov 2006, 23:20

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by fcw »

TLspotting wrote: 11 Jan 2023, 22:00

LOT used 3 (even 4) aircraft at once and I think that now even with the expansion that some airlines got because passengers wanted to go on holiday, they could have missed something.

In an article to be published, I hope soon, I mention the fact that Air Belgium has now a solid partnership, the one with Air-Link. Last year, Terzakis said that they were working with a Scandinavian airline... Which one? There's no result till now. And I personally think that AB missed an opportunity with Ryanair in Brussels, that could have worked, but the CEO has always been away from this idea.

In Brussels, I have the feeling that there are screwed. The only way to get something connecting would be the return of easyJet, also partnering with a few other airlines. It is the whole point, there is no other solution, as the only international train to stop at Brussels Airport is NS International's Intercity between Brussels and Amsterdam. HS services are gone. Every other airline is going to give one to two destinations. Passengers don't want to go from A to B, via C, D, E or even F.

Furthermore, Terzakis mentions Air Mauritius, still nowhere to be seen... Also there is still this kind of ghost partnership with Air Caraïbes. First it was told that from both PTP & FDF, you could go to Saint-Martin, I never saw that on AB's website... Also to Curaçao, an invisible partnership. And now the only partnership they give is between PTP and FDF and the way back... What a partnership !

At the end, we could hope that if Bangkok is launched, they could make a partnership with VietJetAir or even AirAsia.
If this is what you are going to publish in your article, may I humbly suggest not to do so?
Once again, your sentences are confusing and don’t make any sense.

JOVAN2
Posts: 100
Joined: 19 Sep 2022, 11:06

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by JOVAN2 »

Matt wrote: 11 Jan 2023, 13:50
JOVAN2 wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 00:41 And RSA.
Owh my God really? I just gave you an explanation on why it's a bad idea.

Here some real numbers for JNB on a 30 deg day, QNH 1013, no wind, runway 03L :

Maximum takeoff weight under the conditions with most favorable takeoff configuration (optimum flap setting, optimum thrust, and packs off)

748 - 346,800 kg
346 - 346,000 kg
77W - 302,800 kg
343 - 248,000 kg
333 - 215,000 kg
339 - 223,000 kg

Payload available (fuel, passengers, cargo etc) for each type would be about

346 187,700 kg
748 193,700 kg
77W 134,200 kg
343 122,800 kg
333 95,100 kg
339 100,000 kg

These numbers get worse for the A333 and A339 when it gets hotter and/or more wind. (I really don't feel like doing that calculation )

Johannesburg is a HOT AND HIGH airport. Even the A359 from Delta struggles to do the ATL-JNB route. It makes it barely.

Note how well the 346 and 343 are performing out of JNB. There is a reason why SAA had so many. You NEED power to get out of JNB. Also note the runway length of JNB. Over 4000 meters. Why you think that is? :roll: If you ever flew to JNB: didn't you find it weird that the take off roll is exceptionally long?
They used to say that JNB was only serviceable long haul with Quad-jets. With the introduction of the 77W this changed a bit (but the GE90 is also just a monster of an engine) . the trent XWB and Genx/Trent1000 also perform well, but those are also really powerful engines. The Trent 7000 is literally a Trent1000, scaled down and a lot less power.

Using an A339 to JNB is just a bad idea. Sounds good, doesn't work. And the more that I go on about it and crunching the numbers, the more puzzled I am on why Air Belgium is serving this route with an A339.

Can you come up with 1 good reason on why AB should continue to serve JNB ? (apart from the fact that your colleagues want to avoid AMS/FRA :roll: )
Very impressive figure-work.
Air Belgium will have to do with the planes they have now.
As you know they started several months ago flying RSA so if they can I hope they will continue.

The 343 and 346 were too expensive and old-fashioned to fly, so many airlines stopped using them.
Now LH is putting back in operation 10 or 12 of their 346.
So, airline business is a strange business.

Let us hope Mr. Terzakis and other airline executives read this Forum, and especially your posts to learn about aviation !!!

TLspotting
Posts: 3075
Joined: 19 Mar 2017, 10:22
Location: Uccle/Ukkel, BE
Contact:

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by TLspotting »

fcw wrote: 11 Jan 2023, 22:25
TLspotting wrote: 11 Jan 2023, 22:00

LOT used 3 (even 4) aircraft at once and I think that now even with the expansion that some airlines got because passengers wanted to go on holiday, they could have missed something.

In an article to be published, I hope soon, I mention the fact that Air Belgium has now a solid partnership, the one with Air-Link. Last year, Terzakis said that they were working with a Scandinavian airline... Which one? There's no result till now. And I personally think that AB missed an opportunity with Ryanair in Brussels, that could have worked, but the CEO has always been away from this idea.

In Brussels, I have the feeling that there are screwed. The only way to get something connecting would be the return of easyJet, also partnering with a few other airlines. It is the whole point, there is no other solution, as the only international train to stop at Brussels Airport is NS International's Intercity between Brussels and Amsterdam. HS services are gone. Every other airline is going to give one to two destinations. Passengers don't want to go from A to B, via C, D, E or even F.

Furthermore, Terzakis mentions Air Mauritius, still nowhere to be seen... Also there is still this kind of ghost partnership with Air Caraïbes. First it was told that from both PTP & FDF, you could go to Saint-Martin, I never saw that on AB's website... Also to Curaçao, an invisible partnership. And now the only partnership they give is between PTP and FDF and the way back... What a partnership !

At the end, we could hope that if Bangkok is launched, they could make a partnership with VietJetAir or even AirAsia.
If this is what you are going to publish in your article, may I humbly suggest not to do so?
Once again, your sentences are confusing and don’t make any sense.
No, my article is only mentioning briefly those partnerships.

If I had to rewrite my sentences to summarise, the thing is that it is good to claim that you have partnerships or coming ones without even showing your work, that the only good one is Airlink, as the other ones fail, with Air Caraïbes being a partner which is not really useful.

And that in Brussels they are screwed because passengers want to go to a destination with only 1 stop-over or maximum 2. And that no airline gives this opportunity there and even on highspeed services, they can't rely on as they don't stop at Brussels Airport.
Hi. I'm Thibault Lapers. @ThibaultLapers & @TLspotting

fcw
Posts: 759
Joined: 01 Nov 2006, 23:20

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by fcw »

TLspotting wrote: 11 Jan 2023, 23:15

If I had to rewrite my sentences to summarise, the thing is that it is good to claim that you have partnerships or coming ones without even showing your work, that the only good one is Airlink, as the other ones fail, with Air Caraïbes being a partner which is not really useful.

And that in Brussels they are screwed because passengers want to go to a destination with only 1 stop-over or maximum 2. And that no airline gives this opportunity there and even on highspeed services, they can't rely on as they don't stop at Brussels Airport.
Still clear as mud…

LJ
Posts: 911
Joined: 14 Mar 2004, 00:00
Location: Heiloo NL

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by LJ »

crew1990 wrote: 10 Jan 2023, 20:53 Another thing they should look into is operating the long haul flight on behalve of TUI. But there seems to be no relationship between both airlines.
Why would TUI cut a deal with Air Belgium? If they really need the seats they can always fly the route themselves or put the pax on their flights ex AMS. The latter is much cheaper fo TUI.

JOVAN2
Posts: 100
Joined: 19 Sep 2022, 11:06

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by JOVAN2 »

LJ wrote: 12 Jan 2023, 23:05
crew1990 wrote: 10 Jan 2023, 20:53 Another thing they should look into is operating the long haul flight on behalve of TUI. But there seems to be no relationship between both airlines.
Why would TUI cut a deal with Air Belgium? If they really need the seats they can always fly the route themselves or put the pax on their flights ex AMS. The latter is much cheaper fo TUI.
I believe that AirBelgium already flew for TuiFly Nordic.

On the other hand TuiFly Belgium offers trips to Mauritius, but via Dubai with Emirates.

Maybe it would not be stupid for TuiFly B and Air B to sit together and use the resources and planes available here in Belgium, rather than giving the business to ME airlines, who are cannibalizing the European market.

We have learned in recent years that relying too much on other resources in countries like China (for manufacturing) and Russia (for gas and other supply) is a very short-sighted strategy.. The ME airlines an TK have an access to EU market which is far too easy. One day we will depend too much on them and then pay a high price..

Passenger
Posts: 7263
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Passenger »

JOVAN2 wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 10:48 On the other hand TuiFly Belgium offers trips to Mauritius, but via Dubai with Emirates.
The scheduled departures are with the Air Belgium timetable:
example:
dep Fri 24/03/2023 Brussels-Mauritius 21h40-12h30
ret Wed 05/04/2023 Mauritius-Brussels 20h20-06h20

Additional departure days (ad hoc) are with Emirates, most probably.

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 40815
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by sn26567 »

JOVAN2 wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 10:48 On the other hand TuiFly Belgium offers trips to Mauritius, but via Dubai with Emirates.

Maybe it would not be stupid for TuiFly B and Air B to sit together and use the resources and planes available here in Belgium, rather than giving the business to ME airlines, who are cannibalizing the European market.
Travel organisations, in this case TUI Belgium and not TUIfly Belgium, have to secure flights long in advance. Therefore, TUI Belgium made a deal with Emirates before even Air Belgium started flying to Mauritius. OTOH, Air Belgium has not yet got the time to prove itself to be a reliable partner on that destination. If Air Belgium maintains regular flights to Mauritius in the long run, no doubt that TUI Belgium will examine the possibility to cooperate with the airline.

One should also not forget that Air Belgium is flying to Mauritius only once or twice a week depending on the season, while Emirates flies twice daily on both legs (BRU-DXB and DXB-MRU), giving more flexibility to vacationers.

TUIfly Belgium itself simply doesn't have the customer base or the capacity to fly to Mauritius.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Boavida
Posts: 585
Joined: 14 Sep 2010, 23:54

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Boavida »

crew1990 wrote: 07 Jan 2023, 23:30 Review of an Air Belgium kind of empty flight to Mauritius

This is bad! Josh Cahill is one of the most popular and most watched airline reviewers on Youtube....

Cold/bad food, broken IFE, bad headphones, wi-fi not working, high price,... oh dear.

fcw
Posts: 759
Joined: 01 Nov 2006, 23:20

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by fcw »

Boavida wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 15:57 This is bad! Josh Cahill is one of the most popular and most watched airline reviewers on Youtube....

Cold/bad food, broken IFE, bad headphones, wi-fi not working, high price,... oh dear.
To me Josh Cahill looks like a spoiled brat who’s pissed off because he didn’t receive a free upgrade.

Lux_avi
Posts: 299
Joined: 09 Apr 2021, 18:09

Re: Air Belgium in 2023

Post by Lux_avi »

fcw wrote: 13 Jan 2023, 17:11
To me Josh Cahill looks like a spoiled brat who’s pissed off because he didn’t receive a free upgrade.
Glad I'm not the only one thinking this!

Post Reply