Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

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Flanker2
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Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Flanker2 »

The same way there is a "Impact of the Coronavirus crisis on aviation", I think that there are justified grounds to have the reverse thread, separate.

If we can discuss the negative impact of aviation on global warming, we can also discuss the negative impact on the ongoing health crisis.

Facts:
-Airlines have allowed the virus to spread globally, to form a pandemic with huge economic repercussions
-Airlines are failing to acknowledge their negative role in the spread of the virus.
-Airlines are not concerned with the safety of their own passengers. Masks are mandated aboard most flights but masks do not replace social distancing, they are an inherent part of it.
-Airlines are lying and selling a false sense of safety. Even with HEPA filters, constant airflow flowing via an infected neighbor sitting shoulder-to-shoulder for a couple of hours, even when wearing masks, is a formula for infections aboard aircraft.
-Airlines are creating a vicious circle of which they are their own victims.

History will be very harsh on airlines. Airlines are going to be responsible for the deaths of millions of people.


People who obviously perceive this as risk are starting to speak up in large numbers.

Today HLN dedicated an article on it, where the aviation lobby is blamed for the exclusion of aviation from the social distancing rules:

https://www.hln.be/nieuws/binnenland/an ... ~af1eed51/


US senator Bernie Sanders has been asking tough questions during a hearing today.





Aviation actors should reflect on this.
Are they really helping their own situation by restarting flights knowing that they will lead to a second wave and another grounding?

Why are governments allowing this to happen?

Flanker2
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Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Flanker2 »

Keeping airlines flying in a pandemic: horror in the making.

I just got off a Ryanair flight from CRL and I'm horrified by what I saw. I urge politicians to stop this farce and ground all flights with immediate effect.

Reaching the airport. I decided to take the train to Charleroi Station and then the bus. Being a Sunday, trains were lightly loaded. About 60% of the passengers aboard the train were not wearing their mask or were not wearing it properly, despite the mandate to wear masks.
The TEC bus had a very light load, social distancing was not a problem, you get on from the back and show your ticket.

Arrival at the airport. Once you arrive, you go through a temperature screening and the anti-terror check in the tent.
Inside the terminal, crowds are lined up at check-in desk, no social distancing whatsoever.

Going through security.
Same story at the queues at security, but all lanes were open so the queues were very minimal.
Non-contact desinfectant dispensers available at the end of the check, good. Charleroi airport stepped up, but not enough.

Waiting airside.
People sitting next to eachother, walking next to each other without observing distancing. I was sat in an empty area by thr boarding gates, then an old guy walks by and started coughing in his hand like a mad man just 1 meter away. Held my breath and walked away. Why remove your mask to cough in your hand? Idiot.

Boarding.
The boarding call. Ow the horror. People rushing to the gate, packed like cattle waiting to be milked. Just like old times.
People tightly following each other on the air stairs. No thanks, I'll wait somewhere far away.


Image


Aboard.
Seated in the emergency exit row, I board as last pax. Ask the cabin crew if I can switch to the same seat one row behind, approved. Empty seat next to me and across the aisle. Window lady wearing her mask below the nose.
Coughs in the cabin, people eating with masks lowered. Cabin crew doesn't check that people are wearing their masks.
The flight is 95% full.

Before arrival.
The flight arrives into Italy, forms need to be filled. They cabin crew start distributing them, passengers stand up to look for a pen in the overhead bins. Confusion about the forms, cabin crew can't answer but pax talking to them without mask at short range to be more audible.

After landing. The usual scene. Everybody stands up, eager to deplane. No social distancing whatsoever.

After deplaning. A huge queue forms in the arrival area as temperatures are scanned. 5 meters by 20 meters of people packed tight like cattle. I wait outside, no way Jose. Ground staff pushing people to go inside to clear the area outside, but when I don't movr, they don't insist.

Inside the baggage claim area. Same story. People packed like sardines trying to catch avirus everyway they can.



Airlines are undoing months of collective efforts. They are going to keep doing this until our economies are completely destroyed and we are all out of jobs.

Airlines are planning to drag us all together into their downfall. In a couple of months, this is going to be a total disaster.


I am livid. Furious.

Flanker2

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sn26567
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Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by sn26567 »

Masks are compulsory to protect one another when social distancing cannot be implemented. Hence, the role of the flight attendants (or airport personnel) is to make sure everyone wears a mask. If it is not the case, you should complain. But not ask for an end of air travel.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Flanker2 »

sn26567 wrote:
05 Jul 2020, 17:37
Masks are compulsory to protect one another when social distancing cannot be implemented. Hence, the role of the flight attendants (or airport personnel) is to make sure everyone wears a mask. If it is not the case, you should complain. But not ask for an end of air travel.
This is what some governments are saying but it's factually wrong.
I wish that journalists and media would be better informed and play a role in educating the public, including medical professionals.

Simple masks do not replace social distancing they are only effective if social distancing is ALSO observed.
Only FFP2 and FFP3 respirators (US standard N95) made to standards and worn properly can offer real protection.



In conclusion, surgical/procedure masks are intended to help put a barrier between the wearer and the work environment or
sterile field. They may help keep spit and mucous generated by the wearer from reaching a patient or medical equipment.
They can also be used as a fluid barrier to help keep blood splatter from reaching the wearer’s mouth and nose. And, where
applicable, they are FDA cleared as medical devices and can therefore be used in surgery in the U.S.
However, surgical/procedure masks cannot provide certified respiratory protection unless they are also designed, tested, and
government-certified as a respirator. If a wearer wants to reduce inhalation of smaller, inhalable particles (those smaller than
100 microns), they need to obtain and properly use a government-certified respirator, such as a NIOSH-approved N95
filtering facepiece particulate respirator. If the wearer needs a combination surgical/procedure mask and a particulate
respirator, they should use a product that is both cleared by FDA as a surgical/procedure mask and tested and certified by
NIOSH as a particulate respirator. Such products are sometimes called a “surgical N95,” "medical respirator" or "health care
respirator.”
https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/957 ... lletin.pdf



In addition, masks and respirators do not prevent infection through the eyes, which is a known infection channel.

If your life is precious enough to you, and you intend on flying in the current poorly organised environment, I suggest investing in a 3M 6800 with the proper particulate filters, and also wearing a surgical mask at the exhaust valve to protect others. 150 EUR worth every penny.
Anything else is Russian Roulette with your life.




Commercial flying could be made safe if airlines and airports manage the boarding process, enforce proper mask wearing and guarantee minimal distancing between passengers aboard flights, by leaving middle seats open. Until that happens, all flights should be grounded.

History will prove me right.
Last edited by Flanker2 on 06 Jul 2020, 10:50, edited 2 times in total.

Flanker2
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Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Flanker2 »

I also want to highlight the risk of on-board-catering.
Many people are becoming infected in food processing plans. One recent examples are the meat packing plants in Germany and the U.S.

Your fruit salad or cold entrees may be prepared by infected individuals.
From slicing the ham, rolling your smoked salmon, cutting pineapples, peeling your apples. People are behind the process of preparing your food.
We can only hope that people working in those plants are observing high hygiene standards, but I can tell you for a fact that they are not.

Only heated meals can be trusted at this moment, aircraft ovens heat the trays up to 200 degrees celsius, which is sufficient to kill any virus residue.

.... or bring your own sandwich.

Even if you prepare your sandwich at home, with infections rising at meat processing plants, I suggest to microwave your ham and bread until they release steam before making your sandwich. Virus residue can also be present on raw salads and fruits, you can best dip them in hot water at over 60 degrees. Only peeling doesn't help, as you can contaminate the lower surfaces during the peeling process.
And of course, before preparing your sandwich, desinfect your hands. In Belgium they sell Iso Betadine soap, which works well. Washing hands properly takes about 30 seconds.

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Conti764
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Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Conti764 »

Flanker2 wrote:
06 Jul 2020, 11:11
I also want to highlight the risk of on-board-catering.
Many people are becoming infected in food processing plans. One recent examples are the meat packing plants in Germany and the U.S.

Your fruit salad or cold entrees may be prepared by infected individuals.
From slicing the ham, rolling your smoked salmon, cutting pineapples, peeling your apples. People are behind the process of preparing your food.
We can only hope that people working in those plants are observing high hygiene standards, but I can tell you for a fact that they are not.

Only heated meals can be trusted at this moment, aircraft ovens heat the trays up to 200 degrees celsius, which is sufficient to kill any virus residue.

.... or bring your own sandwich.

Even if you prepare your sandwich at home, with infections rising at meat processing plants, I suggest to microwave your ham and bread until they release steam before making your sandwich. Virus residue can also be present on raw salads and fruits, you can best dip them in hot water at over 60 degrees. Only peeling doesn't help, as you can contaminate the lower surfaces during the peeling process.
And of course, before preparing your sandwich, desinfect your hands. In Belgium they sell Iso Betadine soap, which works well. Washing hands properly takes about 30 seconds.
Or you can fence off your house, invest in a huge greenhouse in your backyard, grow your own live stock and boil all water before consumption.

Djeez, Flanker, lighten up a little bit. Sure, Covid-19 is a bitch and the last thing I want to do is downplay it, but it surely won't be the last virus that will find its way into the human population and it probably won't be the last virus to wreak mayhem amongst communities or the (global) economy.

We've had the BLM protests after which we'd surely were going to see a dramatic rise in infections. We've had the illegal parties which would be a disaster for public health and even in the city where it all happened, Brussels, it didn't cause a disaster.

Yes, we need to remain careful, we need to take precautions but what you are suggesting is overkill. Again. Suspending the economy in March was the right decision since we didn't realy know what was coming. We learned alot of the virus in the past months so shutting down (parts of) the economy isn't necessary. The handling of the virus needs tweaking, yes and more can be done when people return from places with high infection rates but let's refrain from panic.

We never scaled back economy during the yearly flu season. And no, I'm not such an egghead who compares Covid with the regular flu, but we'll learn to cope with Covid as well as we learned to cope with the flu. There was a time when the flu was much deadlier then it is today.

And if we take the most recent Covid numbers in Belgium... New infections stay stable but the number of hospitalisations keeps going down, as is the number of people on the ICU. So for now, Covid at least seems to be less severe then it was a couple of months ago. We'll have to wait and see how it evolves in Autumn and Winter. For all we know, Covid-19 might be weakening and turn into a 'regular' season flu, just as Influenza-A and -B.

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Flanker2 wrote:
05 Jul 2020, 15:22
Keeping airlines flying in a pandemic: horror in the making.

I just got off a Ryanair flight from CRL and I'm horrified by what I saw. I urge politicians to stop this farce and ground all flights with immediate effect.

[....]

Airlines are planning to drag us all together into their downfall. In a couple of months, this is going to be a total disaster.


I am livid. Furious.

Flanker2
I worked at Paris CDG during the lockdown and despite the lockdown, i was not very reassured because we didn't nothing about the virus. We hadn't masks, gloves,...

Even if i m sometimes shocked by some behaviour in France, mostly in the street, and not in the transport or in shops, where most of people wear a mask, i m feel a little bit safe now, because we have more infos about the virus.

Like Conti764 said, yes, they will be probably more cases in fall or winter. And yes, they will be probably again lockdown, but probably mostly in local area, like in Lisbon or Catalonia. Without vaccines ou drugs, life will be probably like this during time.

I was supprised too see so many flights (mainly because demand is low), however i m not against the fact that airlines resume some flights, if the COVID-19 infections remain stable or very low.

Our 2 customers (airlines) didn't resume flights to Paris. Since March 2020, our Asian customer made only 1 flight, in May, and won't probably resume flights before the fall. It's means no cash from them, while it's our biggest customer, if we talk about money

The other airline made some special flights, and we provide some services (outside flights) for them. We have also other customers (not airlines) at CDG. If we still there, it's only because thanks to them and the partial unemployment.

We are not the only company, in this case at Paris CDG. Even the biggest companies are in trouble.

You can't shut down air travel. During the lockdown, i saw some scheduled flights carrying French people who were stranded, in Asia or Africa. Don't forget that some belly flights have also carried foods, mask, drugs,...
Last edited by rwandan-flyer on 06 Jul 2020, 15:20, edited 1 time in total.

Flanker2
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Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Flanker2 »

Conti764 wrote:
06 Jul 2020, 14:16
Flanker2 wrote:
06 Jul 2020, 11:11
I also want to highlight the risk of on-board-catering.
Many people are becoming infected in food processing plans. One recent examples are the meat packing plants in Germany and the U.S.

Your fruit salad or cold entrees may be prepared by infected individuals.
From slicing the ham, rolling your smoked salmon, cutting pineapples, peeling your apples. People are behind the process of preparing your food.
We can only hope that people working in those plants are observing high hygiene standards, but I can tell you for a fact that they are not.

Only heated meals can be trusted at this moment, aircraft ovens heat the trays up to 200 degrees celsius, which is sufficient to kill any virus residue.

.... or bring your own sandwich.

Even if you prepare your sandwich at home, with infections rising at meat processing plants, I suggest to microwave your ham and bread until they release steam before making your sandwich. Virus residue can also be present on raw salads and fruits, you can best dip them in hot water at over 60 degrees. Only peeling doesn't help, as you can contaminate the lower surfaces during the peeling process.
And of course, before preparing your sandwich, desinfect your hands. In Belgium they sell Iso Betadine soap, which works well. Washing hands properly takes about 30 seconds.
Or you can fence off your house, invest in a huge greenhouse in your backyard, grow your own live stock and boil all water before consumption.

Djeez, Flanker, lighten up a little bit. Sure, Covid-19 is a bitch and the last thing I want to do is downplay it, but it surely won't be the last virus that will find its way into the human population and it probably won't be the last virus to wreak mayhem amongst communities or the (global) economy.

We've had the BLM protests after which we'd surely were going to see a dramatic rise in infections. We've had the illegal parties which would be a disaster for public health and even in the city where it all happened, Brussels, it didn't cause a disaster.

Yes, we need to remain careful, we need to take precautions but what you are suggesting is overkill. Again. Suspending the economy in March was the right decision since we didn't realy know what was coming. We learned alot of the virus in the past months so shutting down (parts of) the economy isn't necessary. The handling of the virus needs tweaking, yes and more can be done when people return from places with high infection rates but let's refrain from panic.

We never scaled back economy during the yearly flu season. And no, I'm not such an egghead who compares Covid with the regular flu, but we'll learn to cope with Covid as well as we learned to cope with the flu. There was a time when the flu was much deadlier then it is today.

And if we take the most recent Covid numbers in Belgium... New infections stay stable but the number of hospitalisations keeps going down, as is the number of people on the ICU. So for now, Covid at least seems to be less severe then it was a couple of months ago. We'll have to wait and see how it evolves in Autumn and Winter. For all we know, Covid-19 might be weakening and turn into a 'regular' season flu, just as Influenza-A and -B.

Unfortunately, I can't lighten up at all.
I think that people like you do not realise that this little virus that will maybe weaken, that we will maybe find a cure for, that we will maybe find a vaccine for, that ;aybe isn't as bad as the flu, has already caused the deaths of a lot of people and is on its way to shutting down the economy for the entire winter.

Airlines are the ones who brought the virus to Belgium, will they compensate me for my reduced income? Will you?

If we had grounded airlines and closed the borders, we could have kept a functioning domestic economy.
No need for that said De Block and Van Ranst, until the virus was so huge that they had no choice but to do it.

We have learned nothing from that and are heading into a winter of total economic destruction.

Do not be mistaken, it will happen.
As we speak, hundreds of people are being exposed to the virus on each and every operating flight.
As we speak, people are dining in restaurants where infected chefs are handling raw foods to be served to guests.
As we speak, bars and pubs are rinsing dirty glasses with cold water and spreading the virus.

Summer is a blessing as people's immune systems are stronger.

It takes time to detect new cases.
From the moment of infection, to the first symptoms it takes 5-10 days.
Another 5-10 days until there is fever.
Another 5 days until they realise they need help.

All in all, the time frame between infection and testing could be as much as a month.
So you can expect infection numbers to start rising alarmingly fast from the second half of August, heading into the winter.
By the fourth week of September we should be in a full lockdown again.


Why are numbers spiking in the US and some countries in Europe?
The US never really shut down commercial flights.
Italy and Spain are seeing local spikes already, they were the first to see flights coming back.

We can start to see a correlation between flights and Coronavirus spreading.
Aviation is Coronavirus' friend.


The aviation industry is headed for a hard reset anyway.
Even if all these airlines go bankrupt, we can start fresh and rebuild the industry quite quickly, using aircraft left in the bankruptcies.
That's not the case of many other industries that could disappear forever.
Without customers, airlines can't survive or restart in the aftermath of this crisis.

People who are advocating to not ground flights do not realise that we are missing a huge opportunity to kill off the virus this summer.
The longer we drag this on, the more we destroy the aviation industry.
Last edited by Flanker2 on 06 Jul 2020, 15:22, edited 1 time in total.

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by rwandan-flyer »

We agree, but you can't shut down ALL aviation, you kill the economy.
Last edited by rwandan-flyer on 06 Jul 2020, 15:28, edited 2 times in total.

Flanker2
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Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Flanker2 »

rwandan-flyer wrote:
06 Jul 2020, 15:21
We agrre, but you can't shut down ALL aviation, you kill the economy.
It's not a matter of we can or can't. We have to if we want companies, airlines included, to survive.

If we keep going this, governments are going to start failing.

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Conti764
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Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Conti764 »

First of all, airlines did not bring the virus in, people did. And our government acted too slow in containing the virus. I could - to a certain degree given that evidence is surfacing left and right that our government was effectively warned by experts long beforehand - understand the idle reaction since little was really known about Covid-19 untill it bit us in the ass. Hard. And it was a common laxist mentality throughout Europe. More autoritarian states did an overall better job in containing the virus. We, here in Europe, hold a ridiculously believe in privacy and freedom.

That's exactly what's going wrong in the US. Too many yokels running around screaming about liberty, freedom,... being avid followers of 45 and his party thus resulting in a very laxist reaction from the White House. And on top of that a country where bipartisanship is long forgone and partisan rivalry plays at every level, nontheleast on state level where most decisions are taken.

Outbreaks in Italy, Spain, Germany are very local - as predicted - and have nothing to do with tourism or aviation. It's up to the (local) authorities to step up and contain the virus like Germany already did very effectively in the meatplant outbreak.

You are right that we need to keep a close look at Covid and need to stay alert. But there is no need to shut down a very important part of our economy.

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by rwandan-flyer »

It's not a matter of we can or can't. We have to if we want companies, airlines included, to survive.

If we keep going this, governments are going to start failing.
I don't agre with you

You have still some people, who have to travel to back home, for works or because they have someone in their family, who has health troubles

If we limit our trips and put restrictions, you reduce the numbers of people in the airports or the planes. During the lockdown (peak), they were over 60 commercial mvts per day at Paris CDG, against over 1000, in a normal day. In April 2020, Paris CDG handled 100 000 pax. In normal day, Paris CDG handles...200 000 pax. 1.4% of the level vs April 2019.

https://www.ouest-france.fr/sante/virus ... is-6836817 (FR)

In France, only Marseille, Toulouse, Nice and some airports in Corsica were open for commmercial flights. Only a daily flight to Paris, for Marseille, Toulouse and Nice and daily flights to Nice and Marseille, for Corsican airport. All others airports in Metropolitan France were closed for commercial flights: Bordeaux, Nantes, Paris Orly, Montpellier, Lille or Lyon,....

For Apr20, in France: 0,9% of the level of the trafic vs April 2019 https://www.ecologique-solidaire.gouv.f ... 04_n80.pdf (FR Pdf)

Last flights i made with our Asian customer, they were only between 20-40 passengers on each flights (Asia-Paris-Asia), on board of a B777-300ER, because more and more countries were putting restrictions

Air France has operated only 5% of its capacity. It was already very huge.

PttU
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Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by PttU »

Completely shutting down air travel for passengers could maybe save some lives, at the expense of a heavy economical impact.

On the other hand: smoking also kills a lot of people, but it's not forbidden. Neither is the use or selling of alcohol. Both products which aren't necessary (like air travel in your opinion), but a lot of people aren't willing to give up easily.
Every year a lot of people die in road traffic, should that be banned too?

I'm not downplaying Corona, but any measures taken needs a support base. It's better to educate people and convince them to wear masks more often than it is to make a law and assume people will adhere to it, or ban air travel overall.

Flanker2
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Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Flanker2 »

PttU wrote:
06 Jul 2020, 21:34
Completely shutting down air travel for passengers could maybe save some lives, at the expense of a heavy economical impact.

On the other hand: smoking also kills a lot of people, but it's not forbidden. Neither is the use or selling of alcohol. Both products which aren't necessary (like air travel in your opinion), but a lot of people aren't willing to give up easily.
Every year a lot of people die in road traffic, should that be banned too?

I'm not downplaying Corona, but any measures taken needs a support base. It's better to educate people and convince them to wear masks more often than it is to make a law and assume people will adhere to it, or ban air travel overall.
I love this kind of post because it shakes people awake.

At the peak of the Coronavirus crisis, Belgium had 496 deaths per day.
In comparison, in 2019, Belgium counted 646 accident deaths on its roads for the full year.

To reach the same level of deaths by car accidents, we would have to remove all traffic regulations, remove the requirement to hold a driver's license, allow and even promote drunk driving. Even then, it's hard to equal the amount of death caused by Covid19.

To me, if you are going to allow airline passengers to sit shoulder-to-shoulder without wearing the mask properly and allow them to congregate to boarding area's without social distancing measures, etc... you must also allow people to drive without license, drunk, on a car that is not insured nor inspected. The end result and the risk is lower with the latter. Death is also much quicker and less suffering in car accidents.
Also, stop putting ugly labels and taxes on tobacco and promote smoking! There's more risk of dying of Covid than from smoking.

Also, I think that you are interpreting my message wrong.
I think that safe air travel is possible even during this pandemic.

To achieve it, we need a few measures to be implemented:

-Enforce social distancing during boarding and deplaning. Call out passengers row per row if you have to. During boarding, the gate agents do it, during deplaning, the cabin crew. Any other means are fine also;
-Put enough distance between seats at the boarding area. CRL airport has put stickers on seats but people are ignoring them;
-Require passengers to wear a N95/FFP2 respirator without valve instead of surgical masks. If passengers don't have one, sell it to them. Check that people are wearing them properly during the security inspection, boarding and during the flight;
-Provide alcoholic wipes (contactless) during boarding so that passengers can wipe off their own seats and armrests. Ryanair is not doing any cleaning between flights from what I could see, and I doubt any extra cleaning is taking place at other airlines despite some airlines showing it int marketing footage;
-Stop BOB selling, cabin crew movements during flight should be limited to checking that people have their respirators on. Cabin crew are exposing themselves to hundreds of people everyday and then exposing hundreds of people, that needs to stop;
-Cabin crew should be tested twice weekly, results reported to government agencies for contact tracing but also to survey and monitor the risk of infection aboard aircraft;
-Keep the middle seat empty, charge 50% more;
-Bathrooms should be disinfected after every use.

Airlines and airports have no excuse for not implementing these measures.
Hence, airlines should be grounded until they start taking professional and serious measures to reduce the risk and exposure to an acceptable level.

The current level is not acceptable by any standards, it's amateur hour.
If they took each Covid-19 death as seriously as a car accident death, this could even be considered criminal.

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by rwandan-flyer »

-At the peak of the Coronavirus crisis, Belgium had 496 deaths per day.
In comparison, in 2019, Belgium counted 646 accident deaths on its roads for the full year.

You are takling about your own case, or about the situation in Belgium. It will be interesting to compare with others countries in Europe, in the World, mostly in Asia and Africa, where they used to fight against deadly outbreak (flu in Asia and Ebola in Africa). And you can see that most countries in Asia and in Africa take all their times to reopen their boarders, take quickly measures and put huge restrictions, when you to go to these countries.

Few weeks ago, China Southern suspended flights to Bangladesh, due the high number of imported cases (https://www.caixinglobal.com/2020-06-14 ... 67114.html).

Same thing with Emirates which has suspended flights to Pakistan, because Hong Kong has recorded lots of imported case, from Pakistan: https://www.thenational.ae/uae/transpor ... -1.1038410

Despite to be on the European Union green list, Algeria won't repoen its boarders, because Covid19 infection remains high: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2020-0 ... 173664.htm

Madagascar imposes lockdown amid rise in COVID-19 cases: https://www.aa.com.tr/en/africa/madagas ... es/1900940

For Rwanda, you will be required to show proof of the negative result from a COVID-19 test, taken within 72 hours before arrival, from a certified laboratory ( i guess it can cost lots money, in some countries). At Kigali, you will be again tested. You will have to say in a hotel, at your own cost, before to know the result. I have probably forgot some others rules implemented in the country.

https://taarifa.rw/rwanda-to-resume-com ... in-august/


In USA, the Covid19 infection is rising in some states, but many airlines don't hesitate to remove passengers who don't wear a mask

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... GH8YXS9LBM

So situation in some countries in Europe, it's not the same in countries in Africa or Asia, where the restrictions are stil high, too high according to the IATA.

Quarantine Measures Threaten Aviation Restart in Africa & the Middle East: https://www.iata.org/en/pressroom/pr/2020-07-02-01/

Cathay Pacific bailout shows Asian airline recovery has a way to go

The continued effective closure of borders to noncitizens, and sometimes even permanent residents, depending on the country, has depressed demand. Two-week quarantines on both ends have not encouraged international travel either.https://asia.nikkei.com/Opinion/Cathay- ... -way-to-go

PttU
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Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by PttU »

Flanker2 wrote:
07 Jul 2020, 00:40
PttU wrote:
06 Jul 2020, 21:34
Completely shutting down air travel for passengers could maybe save some lives, at the expense of a heavy economical impact.

On the other hand: smoking also kills a lot of people, but it's not forbidden. Neither is the use or selling of alcohol. Both products which aren't necessary (like air travel in your opinion), but a lot of people aren't willing to give up easily.
Every year a lot of people die in road traffic, should that be banned too?

I'm not downplaying Corona, but any measures taken needs a support base. It's better to educate people and convince them to wear masks more often than it is to make a law and assume people will adhere to it, or ban air travel overall.
I love this kind of post because it shakes people awake.

At the peak of the Coronavirus crisis, Belgium had 496 deaths per day.
In comparison, in 2019, Belgium counted 646 accident deaths on its roads for the full year.

To reach the same level of deaths by car accidents, we would have to remove all traffic regulations, remove the requirement to hold a driver's license, allow and even promote drunk driving. Even then, it's hard to equal the amount of death caused by Covid19.

To me, if you are going to allow airline passengers to sit shoulder-to-shoulder without wearing the mask properly and allow them to congregate to boarding area's without social distancing measures, etc... you must also allow people to drive without license, drunk, on a car that is not insured nor inspected. The end result and the risk is lower with the latter. Death is also much quicker and less suffering in car accidents.
Also, stop putting ugly labels and taxes on tobacco and promote smoking! There's more risk of dying of Covid than from smoking.

Also, I think that you are interpreting my message wrong.
I think that safe air travel is possible even during this pandemic.
I think you are interpreting my message wrong.
Yes, at the peak there were hundreds of deaths daily, which is much more than traffic casualities. But now (even with half-hearted measures), the rate has diminished. It's around a rate which makes a comparison to car traffic, smoking and drinking justified. It's not over, but it's low enough to be balanced with economical costs.
Just as local "black points" in car trafic are handled by local improvements or changes, the local lockdowns of Covid-peaking areas is a similar measure.

" if you are going to allow airline passengers to sit shoulder-to-shoulder without wearing the mask properly and allow them to congregate to boarding area's without social distancing measures, etc... "
That's the point: they'e not allowed. But they're doing it anyway. If people would abide the law strictly, there would me much less fatalities, both in traffic and in Covid.

Flanker2
Posts: 1724
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by Flanker2 »

PttU wrote:
07 Jul 2020, 12:31
Flanker2 wrote:
07 Jul 2020, 00:40
PttU wrote:
06 Jul 2020, 21:34
Completely shutting down air travel for passengers could maybe save some lives, at the expense of a heavy economical impact.

On the other hand: smoking also kills a lot of people, but it's not forbidden. Neither is the use or selling of alcohol. Both products which aren't necessary (like air travel in your opinion), but a lot of people aren't willing to give up easily.
Every year a lot of people die in road traffic, should that be banned too?

I'm not downplaying Corona, but any measures taken needs a support base. It's better to educate people and convince them to wear masks more often than it is to make a law and assume people will adhere to it, or ban air travel overall.
I love this kind of post because it shakes people awake.

At the peak of the Coronavirus crisis, Belgium had 496 deaths per day.
In comparison, in 2019, Belgium counted 646 accident deaths on its roads for the full year.

To reach the same level of deaths by car accidents, we would have to remove all traffic regulations, remove the requirement to hold a driver's license, allow and even promote drunk driving. Even then, it's hard to equal the amount of death caused by Covid19.

To me, if you are going to allow airline passengers to sit shoulder-to-shoulder without wearing the mask properly and allow them to congregate to boarding area's without social distancing measures, etc... you must also allow people to drive without license, drunk, on a car that is not insured nor inspected. The end result and the risk is lower with the latter. Death is also much quicker and less suffering in car accidents.
Also, stop putting ugly labels and taxes on tobacco and promote smoking! There's more risk of dying of Covid than from smoking.

Also, I think that you are interpreting my message wrong.
I think that safe air travel is possible even during this pandemic.
I think you are interpreting my message wrong.
Yes, at the peak there were hundreds of deaths daily, which is much more than traffic casualities. But now (even with half-hearted measures), the rate has diminished. It's around a rate which makes a comparison to car traffic, smoking and drinking justified. It's not over, but it's low enough to be balanced with economical costs.
Just as local "black points" in car trafic are handled by local improvements or changes, the local lockdowns of Covid-peaking areas is a similar measure.

" if you are going to allow airline passengers to sit shoulder-to-shoulder without wearing the mask properly and allow them to congregate to boarding area's without social distancing measures, etc... "
That's the point: they'e not allowed. But they're doing it anyway. If people would abide the law strictly, there would me much less fatalities, both in traffic and in Covid.
Says you and the government.
We have to see first if the numbers are being reported in the same way as a few months ago.
Media are reporting that contact tracers are not calling contacts of people who have tested positive.
At one point Belgium ranked number one in the world for numbers of infections per capita. So they may have tweaked the test criteria, but the virus is not dying off, how could it?

What does that tell you?

The government is panicking at the economical devastation and are giving in to lobbyists. Trump sold the "we need to open up the economy" fallacy to the world.
This is what got us in trouble in the first place. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Japan also reported very few cases until now, but only people on the verge of dying were allowed to be tested. People with milder symptoms or dead before being tested were not counted.
Nurses and doctors being told to shut their f*ck up or lose their jobs and any chance of a good reference, in a society where references are everything.
And yet at a certain point they had to put patients in hotels and enter a lockdown. Infection numbers are still peaking in Japan, but hey, they are welcome in the EU.
Good on Belgium to not allow people from Japan or China.

Stop listening to Trump, his term ends in 4 months, he has already given up on winnng the election.
Who wants to be president during such a crisis?
All he's worried about is that tenants of Trump Tower pay their lease.

Airlines have been irresponsible with their cash management and are continuing to be so with their passengers. We need to point that out and revolt until they fix it, not defend them.

rwandan-flyer
Posts: 434
Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 12:30

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Airlines have been irresponsible with their cash management and are continuing to be so with their passengers. We need to point that out and revolt until they fix it, not defend them.
Don't be focused on BE or UE. Some countries and airlines are taking huge measures ;)

Turkish Airlines cancels all flights from Dhaka till 15 July

Turkish Airlines, the national airline of Turkey, has decided to cancel all Dhaka-Istanbul-Dhaka flights till 15 July due to the Covid-19 pandemic.

https://www.dhakatribune.com/bangladesh ... ll-15-july

Air NZ putting a temporary hold on new international bookings to NZ

The government and Air New Zealand have agreed to manage bookings to ensure New Zealanders arriving home can be safely placed in a managed isolation or quarantine facility.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/420 ... ings-to-nz

PttU
Posts: 379
Joined: 24 Nov 2015, 15:07

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by PttU »

Flanker2 wrote:
07 Jul 2020, 13:20
PttU wrote:
07 Jul 2020, 12:31
Flanker2 wrote:
07 Jul 2020, 00:40


I love this kind of post because it shakes people awake.

At the peak of the Coronavirus crisis, Belgium had 496 deaths per day.
In comparison, in 2019, Belgium counted 646 accident deaths on its roads for the full year.

To reach the same level of deaths by car accidents, we would have to remove all traffic regulations, remove the requirement to hold a driver's license, allow and even promote drunk driving. Even then, it's hard to equal the amount of death caused by Covid19.

To me, if you are going to allow airline passengers to sit shoulder-to-shoulder without wearing the mask properly and allow them to congregate to boarding area's without social distancing measures, etc... you must also allow people to drive without license, drunk, on a car that is not insured nor inspected. The end result and the risk is lower with the latter. Death is also much quicker and less suffering in car accidents.
Also, stop putting ugly labels and taxes on tobacco and promote smoking! There's more risk of dying of Covid than from smoking.

Also, I think that you are interpreting my message wrong.
I think that safe air travel is possible even during this pandemic.
I think you are interpreting my message wrong.
Yes, at the peak there were hundreds of deaths daily, which is much more than traffic casualities. But now (even with half-hearted measures), the rate has diminished. It's around a rate which makes a comparison to car traffic, smoking and drinking justified. It's not over, but it's low enough to be balanced with economical costs.
Just as local "black points" in car trafic are handled by local improvements or changes, the local lockdowns of Covid-peaking areas is a similar measure.

" if you are going to allow airline passengers to sit shoulder-to-shoulder without wearing the mask properly and allow them to congregate to boarding area's without social distancing measures, etc... "
That's the point: they'e not allowed. But they're doing it anyway. If people would abide the law strictly, there would me much less fatalities, both in traffic and in Covid.
Says you and the government.
I work at a hospital, I can confirm we have a lot less Covid19-patients compared to a month or two months ago.
We have to see first if the numbers are being reported in the same way as a few months ago.
Media are reporting that contact tracers are not calling contacts of people who have tested positive.
At one point Belgium ranked number one in the world for numbers of infections per capita. So they may have tweaked the test criteria, but the virus is not dying off, how could it?
If it matches your ideas, you spread it as a fact, if it doesn't match your ideas you question them?
What does that tell you?
That tells me it's a good time to stop responding to you.
There's a difference between a civilised discussion with input, ideas and views from both sides, or providing a forum to someone spreading FUD, stuck in his own ideas.
The government is panicking at the economical devastation and are giving in to lobbyists. Trump sold the "we need to open up the economy" fallacy to the world.
This is what got us in trouble in the first place. Fool me twice, shame on me.

Japan also reported very few cases until now, but only people on the verge of dying were allowed to be tested. People with milder symptoms or dead before being tested were not counted.
Nurses and doctors being told to shut their f*ck up or lose their jobs and any chance of a good reference, in a society where references are everything.
And yet at a certain point they had to put patients in hotels and enter a lockdown. Infection numbers are still peaking in Japan, but hey, they are welcome in the EU.
Good on Belgium to not allow people from Japan or China.

Stop listening to Trump, his term ends in 4 months, he has already given up on winnng the election.
Who wants to be president during such a crisis?
All he's worried about is that tenants of Trump Tower pay their lease.

Airlines have been irresponsible with their cash management and are continuing to be so with their passengers. We need to point that out and revolt until they fix it, not defend them.
blahblahblah

rwandan-flyer
Posts: 434
Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 12:30

Re: Impact of aviation on the Coronavirus crisis

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Deserted airport, mandatory mask ... On one of the first Paris-Barcelona flights

EXPERIENCE - Airlines are gradually returning to service. We embarked on an international flight, in order to appreciate the new travel constraints at the time of the coronavirus. Can do better...

https://www.lefigaro.fr/voyages/aeropor ... e-20200709 (FR)

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