Lufthansa in 2020

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Passenger
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Passenger »

It’s is not the first time that EU-Commissioner Vestager collides head-on with Germany. In February 2019, Vestager blocked the merger of Siemens (Germany, ICE) and Alstom (France, TGV). Vestager didn’t want that the two would get an almost monopoly as railways-constructor in Europe (the merger was aimed as counterforce against the expansion in Europe by the Chinese CRRC, twice as big as the 2 Europeans together). And in 2017, Vestager blocked that Lufthansa bought the assets from Air Berlin (RIP): she only allowed that Lufthansa took over DBA.

Vestager view on German state aid to Lufthansa is in line with her political views. She belongs to the Danish socialliberal / liberal-left party Radikale Venstre (Google translates that name into “Radical Left”). Vestiger says that if an airline gets state aid via capital injection, its finances becomes more solid and thus more attractive for banks and investors. That will allow to obtain better financial conditions to eliminate a competitor – and consumers just need competition. When the state aid is via a loan, that loan must be repaid so there is no such advantage, Vestager said. A narrowminded view because lenders know that a shareholder can quit at all times. And Alitalia proofs that loans can be extended forever.

Hence Vestagers’ decision that Lufthansa may be saved to saveguard employment, but that at the same time Lufthansa must bleed to neutralize that state aid advantage.

Just one of the sources about this:
https://www.euractiv.com/section/compet ... t/1472523/

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Conti764
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

crew1990 wrote:
30 May 2020, 12:04
If Luthansa have to give long haul flight to someone, don't dream, Brussels Airlines will get nothing, everything will be granted to swiss
Why not give it to the Africa expert of the group?

crew1990
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

Because those long haul flight are needed in a "real" hub wich is not yet the case in brussels. Almost all the long haul flight are to Africa in Brussels, transfering Africa flight from Germany to Belgium wouldn't be a good strategy, you will not have a pax travelling from Yaounde to Lagos via Brussels, but you could have a pax travelling from Osaka to Nairobi via Zurich

nordikcam
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by nordikcam »

crew1990 wrote:
30 May 2020, 19:00
Because those long haul flight are needed in a "real" hub wich is not yet the case in brussels. Almost all the long haul flight are to Africa in Brussels, transfering Africa flight from Germany to Belgium wouldn't be a good strategy, you will not have a pax travelling from Yaounde to Lagos via Brussels, but you could have a pax travelling from Osaka to Nairobi via Zurich
Easy to understand. SN's specificity "Africa" ​​would therefore serve no purpose. The main thing is that there is a network ... so little future for BRU and therefore for SN in the decades to come!

PttU
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by PttU »

lucas wrote:
30 May 2020, 10:12
crew1990 wrote:
30 May 2020, 09:34
Well just transfert 12+12 flights from Frankfurt and Munich to Brussels, Geneva, Zurich and Vienna to Brussels Airlines, Austrian and Swiss and that's it, no big deal.
As someone already stated above, these airlines will probably not be seen as competetion as they are part of the Lufthansa Group.
It depends? This is about support to Lufthansa, not "the Lufthansa Group". I don't know the legal and accounting details, but maybe that means they CAN go to SN/OS/LX... If it's another company, it can be seen as a competitor. Where would you otherwise draw the line: codesharing partners? Members of the same alliance? Part of the shares?
As stated on the homepage "For one and a half years, this option is only available to new competitors at the Frankfurt and Munich airports. ". SN currently (well... pre-corona) doesn't have a flight to FRA and MUC? So they could be seen as "new competitors"? Let's see how inventive the legal department is :lol:

Ansett
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Ansett »

At this very moment when all airlines have very reduced flight schedules and will probably not go back to "normal" until quiet some time, 24 slots and the flights which go with it are nothing for LH. It's the future, of course, which bothers them. Especially, if I understood correctly, that these slots have to go to EU airlines which have not received State aid (correct me if I misunderstood). So, one thinks immediately of FR. The question, however, is : will FR be interested if it does not get very favorable "conditions" at FRA/MUC ?

Of course, at least for me, the slots at FRA/MUC will not go to any airline of the Group, but when/if LH goes back to "business as usual", the flights LH can no longer operate at FRA/MUC could go to Berlin (BER) ? or to one of the other "hubs" of the Group (BRU/VIE/ZRH in alphabetical order). SN could perhaps get the long awaited evening flight from BRU to NYC.

But that's all really looking inside a very misty cristal ball. We are far from being out of the woods. And if I understood correctly, the shareholders still have to accept the agreement between Berlin and the EU Commission.

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cathay belgium
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

Instead of Ryanair think Wizz ! For MUC and FRA slots !
Much more a destination for instead FR !

For transferring LH flights... BER maybe but don't underestimate the power of DUS when things will start getting better..
And that's also their homecountry , why giving away jobs to ZRH,BRU when Merkel gave 9 billion for Germany !!

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New types flown 2020 : A321neo,B781
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Ansett
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Ansett »

You are right. Probably a more likely scenario.

Passenger
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Passenger »

"Lufthansa Supervisory Board approves stabilization measures":
https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/eng ... 4ba06a2408

LJ
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by LJ »

Ansett wrote:
01 Jun 2020, 00:32
At this very moment when all airlines have very reduced flight schedules and will probably not go back to "normal" until quiet some time, 24 slots and the flights which go with it are nothing for LH. It's the future, of course, which bothers them. Especially, if I understood correctly, that these slots have to go to EU airlines which have not received State aid (correct me if I misunderstood). So, one thinks immediately of FR. The question, however, is : will FR be interested if it does not get very favorable "conditions" at FRA/MUC ?
Ryanair is probably ineligible due to the GBP 600mn it received from UKs Covid Corporate Financing Facility.

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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

LJ wrote:
01 Jun 2020, 18:18
Ansett wrote:
01 Jun 2020, 00:32
At this very moment when all airlines have very reduced flight schedules and will probably not go back to "normal" until quiet some time, 24 slots and the flights which go with it are nothing for LH. It's the future, of course, which bothers them. Especially, if I understood correctly, that these slots have to go to EU airlines which have not received State aid (correct me if I misunderstood). So, one thinks immediately of FR. The question, however, is : will FR be interested if it does not get very favorable "conditions" at FRA/MUC ?
Ryanair is probably ineligible due to the GBP 600mn it received from UKs Covid Corporate Financing Facility.
The agreement with the EU says "The slots can only be taken over by a European competitor that has not itself received any substantial state recapitalisation as a result of the corona pandemic."

One may consider that the subsidy received by Ryanair is not "substantial" in comparison with Lufthansa or Air France, or that it is not a "state recapitalisation".
André
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Wizz Air is Interested in principle in taking Lufthansa remedy slots at Frankfurt and Munich, says CEO József Váradi, but it will need to make an assessment of whether it makes commercial sense.
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Coronavirus: Lufthansa, parent company of Brussels-Airlines, plans to cut 22,000 jobs worldwide


By Sudinfo with AFP

The first European airline group Lufthansa, in the midst of a crisis due to the coronavirus pandemic, intends to cut 22,000 jobs worldwide, or 16% of its workforce, the company told AFP on Wednesday.

"We are going to have 22,000 fewer full-time equivalent jobs in the Lufthansa group, half of which are in Germany," the company said, adding that it wanted "as far as possible" to avoid layoffs.


https://www.sudinfo.be/id204507/article ... imer-22000

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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Lufthansa’s German Bailout May Shrink With Rival Aid Coming In


Germany and Deutsche Lufthansa AG are considering cutting back the country’s 9 billion-euro ($10.1 billion) aid package as the airline group closes in on additional commitments from Switzerland, Austria and Belgium, people familiar with the discussion said.

https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/lufthansa- ... n/45845186

Flanker2
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

sn26567 wrote:
01 Jun 2020, 18:40
LJ wrote:
01 Jun 2020, 18:18
Ansett wrote:
01 Jun 2020, 00:32
At this very moment when all airlines have very reduced flight schedules and will probably not go back to "normal" until quiet some time, 24 slots and the flights which go with it are nothing for LH. It's the future, of course, which bothers them. Especially, if I understood correctly, that these slots have to go to EU airlines which have not received State aid (correct me if I misunderstood). So, one thinks immediately of FR. The question, however, is : will FR be interested if it does not get very favorable "conditions" at FRA/MUC ?
Ryanair is probably ineligible due to the GBP 600mn it received from UKs Covid Corporate Financing Facility.
The agreement with the EU says "The slots can only be taken over by a European competitor that has not itself received any substantial state recapitalisation as a result of the corona pandemic."

One may consider that the subsidy received by Ryanair is not "substantial" in comparison with Lufthansa or Air France, or that it is not a "state recapitalisation".
Ryanair would only be eligible after a year and a half as the slots are initially reserved to new competitors.
This clause is very restrictive.
But Wizzair could be considered a new competitor, what a blow in their face if they can set up in FRA and MUC.

Flanker2
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

The LH shareholder vote will be interesting to watch.
There is just one investor that has a big position, most other stock is owned by short-term speculators or funds who can take their gains or cut their losses and close their positions and who would not be interested in voting.

Will the investor in question really vote against the bailout? I doubt it, he's probably just making it look like LH got a bad deal when in reality it's a huge hand-out. He's probably already positioning for the next bailout.

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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Ansett »

We'll only know after the shareholders' vote, what is really going to happen and if the vote is not secret, who voted in favor and who voted against the current deal.
Apparently, this important shareholder (Thiele) does not want interference from the State, as it might (through the pressure of the social-democrats) hinder employee lay-offs and other drastic restructuring measures.
I'm neither a lawyer nor an economist, but from what I read here and there, I would not be surprised that Thiele would prefer to block the deal, put the airline in an "insolvency protection court procedure" in order for "him" (and guess who else ?) to restructure the airline to make it more "competitive". Although one is entitled to ask why LH should become ever more competitive, as it made billions of profit over the last years.
The answer might be very simple : more profit = more dividends for the shareholders (like Thiele), especially if there is no direct state aid.
Some will say, it will be very bad for LH's reputation. This will be soon forgotten when the airline takes again to the air, with an efficient public relations campaign with one of those stupid slogans like "we are here again, stronger than ever".
(of course, this is pure speculation).

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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

The pilots' union Vereinigung Cockpit calls on all shareholders to register for the General Meeting of 25 June and to vote in favour of the Management's proposal (and thus the State aid package). It doesn't happen very often that a union calls to vote for management.
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Ansett
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Ansett »

The first season of the series has just finished with a lot of suspense and a happy end.
Waiting impatiently for season 2 to start.

Ansett
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Ansett »

https://www.handelsblatt.com/unternehme ... 52598.html

Thorsten Dirks resigns as member of the LH Board in charge of digitalization because he will not receive his bonus on account of the conditions of the deal between Berlin and LH, which says that no bonuses may be paid. No comment !
TD was also CEO of the Eurowings Group (EW/SN).
Is he still co-chair of the Board of Directors of SN Airholding next to Jan Smets ?

https://www.brusselsairlines.com/com/co ... ation.aspx

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