Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Jaguar
Posts: 17
Joined: 29 Nov 2014, 14:21

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jaguar »

sean1982 wrote:
29 May 2020, 16:47
Shonix wrote:
29 May 2020, 16:35
I'm quite surprised to read that cabin crew could get 2800 netto per month with mid-experience... Civil engineers get less than that when they start as juniors in large companies.
I have heard this too. Starting First officers in FR earn this. Cabin crew at BA have about 800-900EUR less then that. That is quite an out of proportion wage if you ask me.
All of this needs to be placed in right context

The basic salary is way way below average and hardly increases with seniority. This basic salary is the salary that is the source of all calculations ‘sick’ ‘maternity’ ‘pension’ and yes ‘unemployment’ so the ccm community needs to build up their own 13 th month and their own pension plan to have a pension above poverty level

Perdiems make up half the salary and dont forget they have a lot of leave days and reserve days.

So all in all if you would calculate every penny they get in a year and divide it to get a average it would more be around 2200 euro maximum and then again they need to save a part of that for any future pregnancies , unforseen illness, or even a working accident might happen and they d end up with 800 euro a month from the health insurer

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

Jaguar wrote:
29 May 2020, 18:10
sean1982 wrote:
29 May 2020, 16:47
Shonix wrote:
29 May 2020, 16:35
I'm quite surprised to read that cabin crew could get 2800 netto per month with mid-experience... Civil engineers get less than that when they start as juniors in large companies.
I have heard this too. Starting First officers in FR earn this. Cabin crew at BA have about 800-900EUR less then that. That is quite an out of proportion wage if you ask me.
All of this needs to be placed in right context

The basic salary is way way below average and hardly increases with seniority. This basic salary is the salary that is the source of all calculations ‘sick’ ‘maternity’ ‘pension’ and yes ‘unemployment’ so the ccm community needs to build up their own 13 th month and their own pension plan to have a pension above poverty level

Perdiems make up half the salary and dont forget they have a lot of leave days and reserve days.

So all in all if you would calculate every penny they get in a year and divide it to get a average it would more be around 2200 euro maximum and then again they need to save a part of that for any future pregnancies , unforseen illness, or even a working accident might happen and they d end up with 800 euro a month from the health insurer
Please lets not pretend that this is not the case aviation wide. The 17 years I worked in aviation "per diems" made up the biggest part of my wage. This is an "illness" the whole sector is suffering from, so yes that is questionable. This does not discount the fact that compared with other airlines this is a high wage. As a purser and ground manager at BA (mixed fleet) knowing 4 aircraft types, flying mostly long haul I earned about 500EUR more then that, just to put things into perspective. Like I said, my CCM colleagues were around 2000 EUR netto, so 700-800 EUR less then at SN.

brusselsairlinesfan
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by brusselsairlinesfan »

Finally, they do reopen JFK and WAW (I was positively surprised on the latter because I thought they would drop Warsaw from the destinations list).

Bracebrace
Posts: 227
Joined: 04 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bracebrace »

sean1982 wrote:
30 May 2020, 01:11
This does not discount the fact that compared with other airlines this is a high wage. As a purser and ground manager at BA (mixed fleet) knowing 4 aircraft types, flying mostly long haul I earned about 500EUR more then that, just to put things into perspective. Like I said, my CCM colleagues were around 2000 EUR netto, so 700-800 EUR less then at SN.
BA as in British Airways?

As far as I know, British Airways does not really care for their cabin crew and this has caused many strikes in the past (this is not my opinion, this is an opinion I got from British Airways pilots themselves). There is high tension between the payscales of BA cabin crew and BA cockpit crew. If you would compare BA cabin take-home pay to Air France, KLM or Lufthansa (which is same "type" of employer), you would get a better picture of the British Airways situation.

crew1990
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Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

Looks like Brussels Airlines operated a cargo flight to Qingdao (China) with OO-SFX

Homo Aeroportus
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Location: 2300NM due South of North Pole

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

crew1990 wrote:
01 Jun 2020, 08:22
Looks like Brussels Airlines operated a cargo flight to Qingdao (China) with OO-SFX
Actually two flights from TAO :
SN1130 on 30MAY by SFX
SN1130 on 31MAY by SFG

H.A.

theeuropean
Posts: 203
Joined: 22 Dec 2009, 17:35

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by theeuropean »

Atlantis wrote:
28 May 2020, 22:55
OK, some news between the posts how much everybody is earning....

According to the latest, the deal or solution for SN is quite near.

Speaking about the LH-group, so not only about SN, there is a thought or proposal to sell one of the members of the group or to bring that one to the stock market.

To sell one of the members is highly doubtful as nobody is eager now to buy an other airline
Apparently Austrian is also close to a deal. You will need to scroll down a bit on the homepage. Unfortunately it is behind a paywall.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/

Flanker2
Posts: 1697
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

Considering that Lufthansa is getting 10 Billions, we can assume that the Belgian taxpayer does not need to provide any form of financial aid?
Why should we spend even 1 Euro of our tax money for a foreign-owned company that doesn't even offer guarantee of continued employment?

400 Million EUR to save 4000 jobs is 100.000 EUR per job.

In the meanwhile, tens of thousands of Belgian businesses paying taxes and providing jobs in Belgium are struggling and on the brink of bankruptcy.

The government better thinks well about what they're doing.
Because if they go ahead and give this foreign company money they don't need, without solid guarantees about maintaining every single job, while Belgian businesses go bankrupt, they're going to get their own riots in the Wetstraat.

Deejay
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Joined: 06 Feb 2018, 09:20

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Deejay »

Did I miss something, or is the deal that's being discussed about a LOAN ?

if I get it right, the belgian state still borrows money at an interest rate close to 0, and will lend 290M€, at a decent rate, to SN...

So actually, "the belgian taxpayer" will pay nothing, on the contrary, he will earn some money on this deal, ...

Jetter
Posts: 474
Joined: 06 Nov 2015, 21:07

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jetter »

Deejay wrote:
02 Jun 2020, 17:56
Did I miss something, or is the deal that's being discussed about a LOAN ?

if I get it right, the belgian state still borrows money at an interest rate close to 0, and will lend 290M€, at a decent rate, to SN...

So actually, "the belgian taxpayer" will pay nothing, on the contrary, he will earn some money on this deal, ...
Yes it’s a loan. But multiple times the amount of money SN made over it’s lifetime, thus far from sure it’ll ever come back.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

If the Belgian state wants a seat on the board of Brussels Airlines and 25% of the shares +1 (in order to have a blocking minority), it must be a capital injection rather than a loan.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Stij
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Location: Belgium

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Stij »

sn26567 wrote:
02 Jun 2020, 22:30
If the Belgian state wants a seat on the board of Brussels Airlines and 25% of the shares +1 (in order to have a blocking minority), it must be a capital injection rather than a loan.
You value the company at 3€ (probably even negative for the moment), raise the capital with 1€ and you get 25% of the shares +1.
The other shareholders will agree to the dillusion of their shares if the new shareholder will give a loan in order to save the company because they hope their shares will be worth something in a couple of years.

Not that difficult.

Cheers,

Stij

DeltaWiskey
Posts: 591
Joined: 13 Oct 2010, 18:33

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by DeltaWiskey »

I believe (correct me if I am wrong) this is the first time the Brussels Airlines is included in the Network Airlines traffic figures:
https://preview.thenewsmarket.com/Previ ... 561762.pdf

oldblueeyes
Posts: 71
Joined: 13 Apr 2020, 12:44

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

Stij wrote:
03 Jun 2020, 07:40
sn26567 wrote:
02 Jun 2020, 22:30
If the Belgian state wants a seat on the board of Brussels Airlines and 25% of the shares +1 (in order to have a blocking minority), it must be a capital injection rather than a loan.
You value the company at 3€ (probably even negative for the moment), raise the capital with 1€ and you get 25% of the shares +1.
The other shareholders will agree to the dillusion of their shares if the new shareholder will give a loan in order to save the company because they hope their shares will be worth something in a couple of years.

Not that difficult.

Cheers,

Stij
The major question is rather how relevant this remains to the Lufthansa Group.

Basically, with the German aid sorted out, 90% of the market pre Corona is secured. A heavy restructuring and and an advanced fleet optimization will follow, but overall the management has the big deals done.

Austrian and Brussels are with respect to this "nice to have", end of the tail deals.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

DeltaWiskey wrote:
03 Jun 2020, 11:49
I believe (correct me if I am wrong) this is the first time the Brussels Airlines is included in the Network Airlines traffic figures:
https://preview.thenewsmarket.com/Previ ... 561762.pdf
Correct. It is also the first time that the traffic figures are issued quarterly(*), rather than monthly like every other airline.

(*) even if the monthly figures are shown.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Flanker2
Posts: 1697
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

LH Group EBIT Q1 2020 by airline unit

LX -82M
SN -93M
OS -197M
EW -233M
LH -787M

Group EBIT -2,676 Billion EUR


This is the ugly EBIT for a Q1 where the first half was barely affected by flight groundings in Europe.
So what happens in Q2?
Fully grounded, EBIT could be about -5 Billion.
Flying empty aircraft for the second half of June, the EBIT could be - 6 Billion.

Now I would like to call your attention to LH Group's balance sheet as of March 31st 2020.
https://investor-relations.lufthansagro ... 20-1-e.pdf
Equity was about 7.5 Billions as of March 31st.
Substract 1.8 Billions of intangibles.

So you have 5.7 Billions of tangible equity.
Add the above loss of 5-6 Billions and LH is not only cash-flow insolvent, but also balance sheet insolvent.

I'm being candid because I'm not touching the 20.5 Billions worth of aircraft, engines and spare parts which can no longer be taken at face value because the market for these has imploded.
Also never mind the fact that LH is probably holding a billion of cash hostage in exchange for vouchers.

So for those of you working for and defending LH, welcome to our new reality. The crane's neck is broken.
You are working for a company on its way to becoming insolvent, if it isn't already.

The German government is going to prop it up with a 3 Billion loan + 7 billion in non-voting shares.
Why? Because if they only give a loan, the equity position doesn't change, they would still be insolvent.

The question now is... how long will the LH balance sheet stay afloat with 7 Billions in equity.
Fully grounded? Probably 2 quarters.
Flying half-empty? Probably 1 quarter.

Does a loan help LH's situation?
No, they need equity.


So what does this mean for SN and a Belgian State Aid?
Even if it were a loan, the 290-390 Millions could be wasted money by the end of the year as the whole Group could be bankrupt by then.
Newsflash: lending money to a business on its way to bankruptcy is very risky.
So much for loaning money at 0% and lending it for 4%.
If LH Group goes bankrupt in the long chain of bankruptcies that is awaiting, it's going to end up being loaning at 0% and lending at -100%.


If SN splits from LH in the future, propping them up now will only strengthen a future competitor, which would be a foolish move.

Politically, propping up a foreign-owned company today will look very bad, when domestic businesses are failing.
We can't save every subsidiary of a foreign company operating in Belgium.
If you start with SN, where will it end?
If you're going to have to give a similar-sized state aid to the entire BEL20 and BEL-mid, Audi Brussels, Toyota Europe, Volvo Trucks, Accor Hotels, Quick, McDonald's, Carrefour, Lidl, Aldi etc... it's Belgium NV/SA that is going to be bankrupt.

SN employs 4000 in Belgium, big deal.
Colruyt alone employs close to 30.000.

As much as you love to give me the finger, you know that I've been right more often than not in the past, so stay real.

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lumumba
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Joined: 04 Sep 2003, 00:00
Location: brussels Europe

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

Flanker2 wrote:
03 Jun 2020, 17:23
LH Group EBIT Q1 2020 by airline unit

LX -82M
SN -93M
OS -197M
EW -233M
LH -787M

Group EBIT -2,676 Billion EUR


This is the ugly EBIT for a Q1 where the first half was barely affected by flight groundings in Europe.
So what happens in Q2?
Fully grounded, EBIT could be about -5 Billion.
Flying empty aircraft for the second half of June, the EBIT could be - 6 Billion.

Now I would like to call your attention to LH Group's balance sheet as of March 31st 2020.
https://investor-relations.lufthansagro ... 20-1-e.pdf
Equity was about 7.5 Billions as of March 31st.
Substract 1.8 Billions of intangibles.

So you have 5.7 Billions of tangible equity.
Add the above loss of 5-6 Billions and LH is not only cash-flow insolvent, but also balance sheet insolvent.

I'm being candid because I'm not touching the 20.5 Billions worth of aircraft, engines and spare parts which can no longer be taken at face value because the market for these has imploded.
Also never mind the fact that LH is probably holding a billion of cash hostage in exchange for vouchers.

So for those of you working for and defending LH, welcome to our new reality. The crane's neck is broken.
You are working for a company on its way to becoming insolvent, if it isn't already.

The German government is going to prop it up with a 3 Billion loan + 7 billion in non-voting shares.
Why? Because if they only give a loan, the equity position doesn't change, they would still be insolvent.

The question now is... how long will the LH balance sheet stay afloat with 7 Billions in equity.
Fully grounded? Probably 2 quarters.
Flying half-empty? Probably 1 quarter.

Does a loan help LH's situation?
No, they need equity.


So what does this mean for SN and a Belgian State Aid?
Even if it were a loan, the 290-390 Millions could be wasted money by the end of the year as the whole Group could be bankrupt by then.
Newsflash: lending money to a business on its way to bankruptcy is very risky.
So much for loaning money at 0% and lending it for 4%.
If LH Group goes bankrupt in the long chain of bankruptcies that is awaiting, it's going to end up being loaning at 0% and lending at -100%.


If SN splits from LH in the future, propping them up now will only strengthen a future competitor, which would be a foolish move.

Politically, propping up a foreign-owned company today will look very bad, when domestic businesses are failing.
We can't save every subsidiary of a foreign company operating in Belgium.
If you start with SN, where will it end?
If you're going to have to give a similar-sized state aid to the entire BEL20 and BEL-mid, Audi Brussels, Toyota Europe, Volvo Trucks, Accor Hotels, Quick, McDonald's, Carrefour, Lidl, Aldi etc... it's Belgium NV/SA that is going to be bankrupt.

SN employs 4000 in Belgium, big deal.
Colruyt alone employs close to 30.000.

As much as you love to give me the finger, you know that I've been right more often than not in the past, so stay real.
But Flanker2 there is a big difference with Colruyt and Brussels Airlines .
The first one will always be there if they disappear another shop will open but Brussels Airlines is bringing cash to Belgium bringing outside money to the Belgium economy like the port of Antwerp for instance.
Even if TUI disappear people will fly to Holliday destination but with another company.
The HUB of Brussels Airlines is something different and that's strategic!
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Flanker2
Posts: 1697
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

lumumba wrote:
03 Jun 2020, 18:31
Flanker2 wrote:
03 Jun 2020, 17:23
LH Group EBIT Q1 2020 by airline unit

LX -82M
SN -93M
OS -197M
EW -233M
LH -787M

Group EBIT -2,676 Billion EUR


This is the ugly EBIT for a Q1 where the first half was barely affected by flight groundings in Europe.
So what happens in Q2?
Fully grounded, EBIT could be about -5 Billion.
Flying empty aircraft for the second half of June, the EBIT could be - 6 Billion.

Now I would like to call your attention to LH Group's balance sheet as of March 31st 2020.
https://investor-relations.lufthansagro ... 20-1-e.pdf
Equity was about 7.5 Billions as of March 31st.
Substract 1.8 Billions of intangibles.

So you have 5.7 Billions of tangible equity.
Add the above loss of 5-6 Billions and LH is not only cash-flow insolvent, but also balance sheet insolvent.

I'm being candid because I'm not touching the 20.5 Billions worth of aircraft, engines and spare parts which can no longer be taken at face value because the market for these has imploded.
Also never mind the fact that LH is probably holding a billion of cash hostage in exchange for vouchers.

So for those of you working for and defending LH, welcome to our new reality. The crane's neck is broken.
You are working for a company on its way to becoming insolvent, if it isn't already.

The German government is going to prop it up with a 3 Billion loan + 7 billion in non-voting shares.
Why? Because if they only give a loan, the equity position doesn't change, they would still be insolvent.

The question now is... how long will the LH balance sheet stay afloat with 7 Billions in equity.
Fully grounded? Probably 2 quarters.
Flying half-empty? Probably 1 quarter.

Does a loan help LH's situation?
No, they need equity.


So what does this mean for SN and a Belgian State Aid?
Even if it were a loan, the 290-390 Millions could be wasted money by the end of the year as the whole Group could be bankrupt by then.
Newsflash: lending money to a business on its way to bankruptcy is very risky.
So much for loaning money at 0% and lending it for 4%.
If LH Group goes bankrupt in the long chain of bankruptcies that is awaiting, it's going to end up being loaning at 0% and lending at -100%.


If SN splits from LH in the future, propping them up now will only strengthen a future competitor, which would be a foolish move.

Politically, propping up a foreign-owned company today will look very bad, when domestic businesses are failing.
We can't save every subsidiary of a foreign company operating in Belgium.
If you start with SN, where will it end?
If you're going to have to give a similar-sized state aid to the entire BEL20 and BEL-mid, Audi Brussels, Toyota Europe, Volvo Trucks, Accor Hotels, Quick, McDonald's, Carrefour, Lidl, Aldi etc... it's Belgium NV/SA that is going to be bankrupt.

SN employs 4000 in Belgium, big deal.
Colruyt alone employs close to 30.000.

As much as you love to give me the finger, you know that I've been right more often than not in the past, so stay real.
But Flanker2 there is a big difference with Colruyt and Brussels Airlines .
The first one will always be there if they disappear another shop will open but Brussels Airlines is bringing cash to Belgium bringing outside money to the Belgium economy like the port of Antwerp for instance.
Even if TUI disappear people will fly to Holliday destination but with another company.
The HUB of Brussels Airlines is something different and that's strategic!
I think that you are not seeing things clearly.
Don't let the logo and Belgian registration and headquarters fool you.
Brussels Airlines is a fully owned German company.

Brussels Airlines is now as Belgian as Ryanair.
Ryanair also employs loads of people in Belgium, should we also give them state aid?

If SN goes bust, the void will be filled by other airlines in no time, just the same way as people will shop elsewhere if Colruyt goes bust.
You can't call the subsidiary of a foreign company a "strategic national asset" when you don't have any control over it.

You guys are not thinking this through.
Everything is open again, everyone back to work, published infection numbers are down as if the virus had vanished, and the crisis is resolved right? So why are the stores empty? Why are airlines postponing route relaunches? The consumer has stopped consuming. It's called consumer confidence.
Do I need to paint a picture? Here it is:

Image

https://tradingeconomics.com/belgium/co ... confidence

I don't know about your situation, but I'm hearing people getting fired right and left at my company and from former colleagues at their companies.
We're going to have bankruptcies galore this summer and into the next year.


So if you want to use Brussels Airlines as a strategic national asset, sure, make it a national company and invest even 3 Billions in it.
However, if the Germans want to be in control and do whatever they like, let the Germans sort it out.

User avatar
Conti764
Posts: 1751
Joined: 21 Sep 2007, 23:21

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Very narrow minded, Flanker.

I cannot understand how this 'Brussels Airlines isn't a Belgian company'-bulshit keeps coming back. SN Airholding is fully owned by a foreign company, but it is and remains a Belgian company, paying taxes in Belgium, employing Belgians who again pay taxes on their wages,... So yes, Brussels Airlines IS a Belgian company.

You claim that the void left by SN disappearing will be quickly filled with other companies. Right, like in 2001-2002 when LH, KL, AF and the likes flooded BRU to lure away passengers to their own hubs? It took Brussels Airport 15 years to recover from Sabena's demise. And even with the numbers you provide yourself, you'd go ahead with your 'give SN 3 billion euro and 100 planes to fly to everywhere in the world'-mantra? Recipe for disaster.

Flanker2
Posts: 1697
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

Conti764 wrote:
03 Jun 2020, 20:13
Very narrow minded, Flanker.

I cannot understand how this 'Brussels Airlines isn't a Belgian company'-bulshit keeps coming back. SN Airholding is fully owned by a foreign company, but it is and remains a Belgian company, paying taxes in Belgium, employing Belgians who again pay taxes on their wages,... So yes, Brussels Airlines IS a Belgian company.

You claim that the void left by SN disappearing will be quickly filled with other companies. Right, like in 2001-2002 when LH, KL, AF and the likes flooded BRU to lure away passengers to their own hubs? It took Brussels Airport 15 years to recover from Sabena's demise. And even with the numbers you provide yourself, you'd go ahead with your 'give SN 3 billion euro and 100 planes to fly to everywhere in the world'-mantra? Recipe for disaster.

I think that it doesn't matter where a company is legally registered or what colors it wears.
Brussels Airlines is now a German company and it's about time that you realize it.
The shots are called in Frankfurt and executed in Brussels by a Belgian puppet who voted with the Germans when he had the choice of voting for Belgium or Germany.

There is no future, no job security, no outlook, no plan, no motivation.

The money is drying up and all they're waiting for is for the government to make it rain gold bricks.
Do you know how much gold 390 Millions represent? 8 Tons of gold.
A truckload of gold bricks is what they are asking for.

Robbery by daylight.

Are you insane?

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