Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jetter »

Atlantis wrote:
28 May 2020, 22:55
Speaking about the LH-group, so not only about SN, there is a thought or proposal to sell one of the members of the group or to bring that one to the stock market.

To sell one of the members is highly doubtful as nobody is eager now to buy an other airline
Interesting news. The same applies to the stock market: the value of SN or OS would be almost 0. LX might be worth something though, for a buyer or on the stock market.

Bracebrace
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Joined: 04 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bracebrace »

lumumba wrote:
28 May 2020, 18:17
I understand your reaction I'm not working in the Aviation business but sure if the salary in any way is lower by your competitors you will have to follow and this is true in my business also.
Only partially true. Salary is part of the question how much you prefer to keep experience in your company, or you become an "experience builder" company. Once the pilots have 500-1000 hrs, they will look elsewhere and leave immediatly. If you want to grow, you are stuck, because everybody in aviation will be on the same wave and want to grow. And as long as Air France and KLM are hiring, these companies will steal your people in no time.

Ryanair has well managed that problem for years by making pilots pay initially for their training, but creating a good "upgrade potential" on a very short term. But in the longer term it didn't help at all. Every pilot in Ryanair knew the pilot shortage problem last couple of years and how even Ryanair was hoping for a crisis to happen as even their "ready for upgrade" pilots were running away like crazy. <If people ready for left seat leave your company, you have a big problem. Ryanair needed a crisis to counter this and got it (or did all forum members already forget all the cancelled Ryanair flights last two years?)

So all the long term growth plans the forum members discuss won't be possible. The young guys will want to grow... in another company and leave at the very first opportunity. If you retire the old guys or see them leave to make some money in China... you can have all these plans, but no pilot in your company will be legally ready to make it happen. This has been reality in many companies last two years.
Last edited by Bracebrace on 29 May 2020, 13:31, edited 7 times in total.

Ansett
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Ansett »

The rumor of selling a member of the LH Group, if it materializes, could be a negotiation weapon or concession by LH to the EU Commission in exchange for not being forced to release slots at FRA/MUC, as it would make the Group less powerful towards competition in Europe. My two cents...

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by RoMax »

Is there a proper source for the rumour of LH Group (partially) selling a member? - Was it considered that this might not be an airline member of the group? For years now LHG has been looking at its options for LSG and LH Technik - both being units requiring significant investment to stay at the top of the game while not being the core business of LHG. The sales proces of LSG already started like 2 years ago or so, with a deal made for LSG Europe being sold to Gategroup last year (the remaining global parts of LSG would follow later in 2nd sales wave).
For LH Technik LHG has hinted several times at the option to bring them to the stock market (or at least partially).

If this is about LHT it's not a new topic at all, at most the context changed and even intensified LHG's reasons for selling off both units: LHG does not have the money to keep investing in LSG and LHT while also funding its core airline business requiring many billions over the next years for fleet renewal (even more so if Germany refuses LH to delay Airbus deliveries xp ).

Shonix
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Shonix »

I'm quite surprised to read that cabin crew could get 2800 netto per month with mid-experience... Civil engineers get less than that when they start as juniors in large companies.

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

Shonix wrote:
29 May 2020, 16:35
I'm quite surprised to read that cabin crew could get 2800 netto per month with mid-experience... Civil engineers get less than that when they start as juniors in large companies.
I have heard this too. Starting First officers in FR earn this. Cabin crew at BA have about 800-900EUR less then that. That is quite an out of proportion wage if you ask me.

Ansett
Posts: 561
Joined: 13 Apr 2016, 19:12

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Ansett »

Hi Guys ! A short linguistic interlude in this discussion, if you allow me.
Netto in Dutch translates as net in English
https://www.linguee.com/english-dutch/s ... uery=netto
Bruto in Dutch > gross in English (gross and net remuneration, for instance)
https://www.linguee.com/dutch-english/t ... bruto.html
;)

Poiu
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Shonix wrote:
29 May 2020, 16:35
I'm quite surprised to read that cabin crew could get 2800 netto per month with mid-experience... Civil engineers get less than that when they start as juniors in large companies.
Up to half of this are allowances, ie when away from Brussels crew get bed and breakfast paid by the company and an allowance which covers the other meals. Civil engineers get a company car, fuel card, mobile phone, meal tickets,....

Jaguar
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jaguar »

sean1982 wrote:
29 May 2020, 16:47
Shonix wrote:
29 May 2020, 16:35
I'm quite surprised to read that cabin crew could get 2800 netto per month with mid-experience... Civil engineers get less than that when they start as juniors in large companies.
I have heard this too. Starting First officers in FR earn this. Cabin crew at BA have about 800-900EUR less then that. That is quite an out of proportion wage if you ask me.
All of this needs to be placed in right context

The basic salary is way way below average and hardly increases with seniority. This basic salary is the salary that is the source of all calculations ‘sick’ ‘maternity’ ‘pension’ and yes ‘unemployment’ so the ccm community needs to build up their own 13 th month and their own pension plan to have a pension above poverty level

Perdiems make up half the salary and dont forget they have a lot of leave days and reserve days.

So all in all if you would calculate every penny they get in a year and divide it to get a average it would more be around 2200 euro maximum and then again they need to save a part of that for any future pregnancies , unforseen illness, or even a working accident might happen and they d end up with 800 euro a month from the health insurer

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

Jaguar wrote:
29 May 2020, 18:10
sean1982 wrote:
29 May 2020, 16:47
Shonix wrote:
29 May 2020, 16:35
I'm quite surprised to read that cabin crew could get 2800 netto per month with mid-experience... Civil engineers get less than that when they start as juniors in large companies.
I have heard this too. Starting First officers in FR earn this. Cabin crew at BA have about 800-900EUR less then that. That is quite an out of proportion wage if you ask me.
All of this needs to be placed in right context

The basic salary is way way below average and hardly increases with seniority. This basic salary is the salary that is the source of all calculations ‘sick’ ‘maternity’ ‘pension’ and yes ‘unemployment’ so the ccm community needs to build up their own 13 th month and their own pension plan to have a pension above poverty level

Perdiems make up half the salary and dont forget they have a lot of leave days and reserve days.

So all in all if you would calculate every penny they get in a year and divide it to get a average it would more be around 2200 euro maximum and then again they need to save a part of that for any future pregnancies , unforseen illness, or even a working accident might happen and they d end up with 800 euro a month from the health insurer
Please lets not pretend that this is not the case aviation wide. The 17 years I worked in aviation "per diems" made up the biggest part of my wage. This is an "illness" the whole sector is suffering from, so yes that is questionable. This does not discount the fact that compared with other airlines this is a high wage. As a purser and ground manager at BA (mixed fleet) knowing 4 aircraft types, flying mostly long haul I earned about 500EUR more then that, just to put things into perspective. Like I said, my CCM colleagues were around 2000 EUR netto, so 700-800 EUR less then at SN.

brusselsairlinesfan
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by brusselsairlinesfan »

Finally, they do reopen JFK and WAW (I was positively surprised on the latter because I thought they would drop Warsaw from the destinations list).

Bracebrace
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bracebrace »

sean1982 wrote:
30 May 2020, 01:11
This does not discount the fact that compared with other airlines this is a high wage. As a purser and ground manager at BA (mixed fleet) knowing 4 aircraft types, flying mostly long haul I earned about 500EUR more then that, just to put things into perspective. Like I said, my CCM colleagues were around 2000 EUR netto, so 700-800 EUR less then at SN.
BA as in British Airways?

As far as I know, British Airways does not really care for their cabin crew and this has caused many strikes in the past (this is not my opinion, this is an opinion I got from British Airways pilots themselves). There is high tension between the payscales of BA cabin crew and BA cockpit crew. If you would compare BA cabin take-home pay to Air France, KLM or Lufthansa (which is same "type" of employer), you would get a better picture of the British Airways situation.

crew1990
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Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

Looks like Brussels Airlines operated a cargo flight to Qingdao (China) with OO-SFX

Homo Aeroportus
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

crew1990 wrote:
01 Jun 2020, 08:22
Looks like Brussels Airlines operated a cargo flight to Qingdao (China) with OO-SFX
Actually two flights from TAO :
SN1130 on 30MAY by SFX
SN1130 on 31MAY by SFG

H.A.

theeuropean
Posts: 203
Joined: 22 Dec 2009, 17:35

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by theeuropean »

Atlantis wrote:
28 May 2020, 22:55
OK, some news between the posts how much everybody is earning....

According to the latest, the deal or solution for SN is quite near.

Speaking about the LH-group, so not only about SN, there is a thought or proposal to sell one of the members of the group or to bring that one to the stock market.

To sell one of the members is highly doubtful as nobody is eager now to buy an other airline
Apparently Austrian is also close to a deal. You will need to scroll down a bit on the homepage. Unfortunately it is behind a paywall.

https://www.ch-aviation.com/

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

Considering that Lufthansa is getting 10 Billions, we can assume that the Belgian taxpayer does not need to provide any form of financial aid?
Why should we spend even 1 Euro of our tax money for a foreign-owned company that doesn't even offer guarantee of continued employment?

400 Million EUR to save 4000 jobs is 100.000 EUR per job.

In the meanwhile, tens of thousands of Belgian businesses paying taxes and providing jobs in Belgium are struggling and on the brink of bankruptcy.

The government better thinks well about what they're doing.
Because if they go ahead and give this foreign company money they don't need, without solid guarantees about maintaining every single job, while Belgian businesses go bankrupt, they're going to get their own riots in the Wetstraat.

Deejay
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Joined: 06 Feb 2018, 09:20

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Deejay »

Did I miss something, or is the deal that's being discussed about a LOAN ?

if I get it right, the belgian state still borrows money at an interest rate close to 0, and will lend 290M€, at a decent rate, to SN...

So actually, "the belgian taxpayer" will pay nothing, on the contrary, he will earn some money on this deal, ...

Jetter
Posts: 473
Joined: 06 Nov 2015, 21:07

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jetter »

Deejay wrote:
02 Jun 2020, 17:56
Did I miss something, or is the deal that's being discussed about a LOAN ?

if I get it right, the belgian state still borrows money at an interest rate close to 0, and will lend 290M€, at a decent rate, to SN...

So actually, "the belgian taxpayer" will pay nothing, on the contrary, he will earn some money on this deal, ...
Yes it’s a loan. But multiple times the amount of money SN made over it’s lifetime, thus far from sure it’ll ever come back.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

If the Belgian state wants a seat on the board of Brussels Airlines and 25% of the shares +1 (in order to have a blocking minority), it must be a capital injection rather than a loan.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Stij
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Stij »

sn26567 wrote:
02 Jun 2020, 22:30
If the Belgian state wants a seat on the board of Brussels Airlines and 25% of the shares +1 (in order to have a blocking minority), it must be a capital injection rather than a loan.
You value the company at 3€ (probably even negative for the moment), raise the capital with 1€ and you get 25% of the shares +1.
The other shareholders will agree to the dillusion of their shares if the new shareholder will give a loan in order to save the company because they hope their shares will be worth something in a couple of years.

Not that difficult.

Cheers,

Stij

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