Brussels Airlines in 2020

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LJ
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by LJ »

Jetter wrote:
20 May 2020, 23:21
At least LH now can’t maintain that Belgium shouldn’t get shares in return as that’s what they agreed to in Germany. Think it will go fast now.
Unless they don't need anything anymore from the Belgian government. If LH gets up to 9bn, then that's up to 2bn more than AF + KL needed combined. I doubt that the burn rate of AF+KL combined is almost equal to the burn rate of LH+EW combined, especially as LH has LH Cargo, which must be running well these days.

BTW what the Belgian government certainly will not get is 25% and thus anything to say in the company. It seems that the German government gets some presents shares at EUR 2.56 whilst trading much higher. However, I would guess this present will also come with a present for LH.

jerry
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by jerry »

ΑΝΝΑ has an analysis for SN with a route map for the routes that stop.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

737MAX wrote:
21 May 2020, 09:24
sn26567 wrote:
20 May 2020, 22:19
Apparently, Brussels Airlines has refused the offer of the pilots and wants structural measures.
"Apparently". According to a "very good source" (like we know the reliability of those good sources here) or anything official?
Can't find anything in the media.
Check https://www.rtbf.be/auvio/detail_jt-19h30?id=2637639 at approximately 24.00
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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Note: some posts relative to state aid to Lufthansa have been moved to the Lufthansa in 2020 topic
André
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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by RoMax »

LJ wrote:
21 May 2020, 12:33
Unless they don't need anything anymore from the Belgian government. If LH gets up to 9bn, then that's up to 2bn more than AF + KL needed combined. I doubt that the burn rate of AF+KL combined is almost equal to the burn rate of LH+EW combined, especially as LH has LH Cargo, which must be running well these days.
AF-KL secured 'up to 11 billion EUR' - part of that for Air France and the Paris-based holding Air France-KLM is already fully arranged: 7 billion. That's 4 directly for AF (incl. subsidiaries like hop) and 3 for the holding - both through the French government. But that doesn't include yet the support of the Dutch state for KLM, end of April already they made a principle agreemnt for 2-4 billion, but details are still being negotiated as the Dutch also attach it to a deal in terms of what needs to happen with KL staff etc.

Also don't forget the LH Group is quite a bit bigger than AF-KL on several aspects, last year LHG had something like 9 billion EUR more in revenue than AF-KL. It also has much more staff (for a big part due to LSG and LH Technik, but also they are part of the group and heavily impacted). And anyway there are so many variables to compare, it's not as simple as saying AF and the AF-KL holding got 7 billion, so 9 for LHG should be enough.
Btw, despite its bigger size, I think LH was (at least relatively seen) lower on liquidity - for a big part because LH is purchasing most of its aircraft rather than leasing, much more than e.g. AF-KL and IAG. There's something to say for that strategy, but in a crisis like today where liquidity is key, that's not helping of course. LH might be in more need of short term cash, while being 'healthier' on the longer term.

Ansett
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Ansett »

Jetter wrote:
20 May 2020, 22:53
Flanker2 wrote:
20 May 2020, 20:36
SN has already used economic unemployment several times in the past, so even when the force majeure unemployment related to Coronavirus end, as long as they have staff surplus they can keep staff partly on economical unemployment.

https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20091014_052
https://nl.express.live/gedeeltelijke-t ... xp-114253/

This measure can be enacted by SN based on the economic situation and does not impact pensions and other services tied to social contributions as these will be calculated based on 100% of your salary.
If people wonder why taxes in Belgium are so high and claim that it's bad for competition please take note: here is one of the reasons. The government pays your wages when you are unemployed and it doesn't even impact your pension and other social services. Moreover this can happen multiple times even when the company doesn't make any structural reforms.

Unlike some people on this forum pretend those taxes are not going in a black hole, but are spend on the many exorbitant aspects of Belgian social welfare and the staff of SN does profit, so only fair they have low net wages in international perspective.
You are right...to a certain extent. It applies to basically any worker in Belgium.
However, a difference should be made between taxes and social contributions.

Sorry for the strong language : taxes are, imho, indeed, extremely high in Belgium because we have to many governments, ministers and parliamentarians on account of our surrealistic State structure. We are paying a lot to many incompetent political decision makers. (Note that I am not saying all of them are incompetent). We are paying a lot of taxes because of the many privileges (not only remuneration, but also very favorable pension allowances) these political decision makers get. Perhaps time to change that, given the current sanitary situation and its budgetary implications.

As for the social contributions, indeed they are very high, but they offer us an above average medical coverage, unemployment allowances pensions and so on.

My own conclusion : I don't mind to pay high social contributions because I get something in return for it which is very valuable. I do object paying high taxes for the reasons explained above

On a final (sorry, slightly off topic) note. Taxes in Denmark, for instance, are extremely high, but they don't have social contributions. "Social security" (including unemployment allowances, pensions, and health care are funded through taxes). Just for info.

JOVAN
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by JOVAN »

It remains strange (mysterious ?) that BRU Airport remains silence in the whole SN debate??

You would expect BRU to be actively looking for solutions, new approach etc to help save their biggest customer.
40% of the traffic is SN at BRU. And it could be more.

Is BRU just greedy, lazy, uninterested , amateuristic, stupid or are they a bunch of cowards, hoping that the profits go to them and the burdens to the tax payers.

Time for the Government to make some drastic changes there, as this is a matter of national interest.

WAKE UP BRU

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Yuqu12
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Yuqu12 »

Brussels Airport has said on many occasions that SN should be saved by the Belgian government and that they don't need state aid themselves. There isn't much more which Brussels Airport can do. Giving better conditions to Brussels Airlines only to help them is not allowed under European and international legislation.

JOVAN
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by JOVAN »

Yuqu12 wrote:
22 May 2020, 09:58
Brussels Airport has said on many occasions that SN should be saved by the Belgian government and that they don't need state aid themselves. There isn't much more which Brussels Airport can do. Giving better conditions to Brussels Airlines only to help them is not allowed under European and international legislation.
Dear Yuku, wake up.

We live in a new world now.
Complacency will be suicide.

Every country is helping its national airline(s). and saving its national strategic assets.

BRU must and can of course do something. De Tijd of today already has an article mentioning that the Government is getting angry about BRU attitude and silence.

AMS is helping KL in a direct and indirect way, to both sides benefit and the benefit of the Dutch government and tax-paying people.

BRU will have to revise its whole commercial strategy.
Be there for the customers (PAX and airlines) and the country.
Not only for the share holders. Last years benefit was huge and shows BRU is far too expensive.

BRU has been very short-sighted and snobbish. For many years.

Thats why they are number 26 or so in Europe . Is that good for a city as Brussels and a country like Belgium. BRU is in the very very Center of the richest part of the richest continent and is about nr. 26 in the list of European Airports. After this crisis maybe out of the top 30 ???

Very old fashioned and simplistic management style at BRU, indeed.
Time to change some dinosaurs there ??

theeuropean
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by theeuropean »

I agree that BRU needs to seriously do something to become busier and attract more airlines. It should definitely help SN in some form or another. ATH is slowly catching up and may even surpass BRU next year. They have good management have attracted many airlines over the past couple of years. They are just 800,000 pax behind more less. Also I don't understand Miami as a new destination, it is leisure heavy, even Austrian couldn't make it work. I seriously think also a west coast US route is more profitable than Newark make United start an evening service. Let's see what happens, but BRU should be much more proactive.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

JOVAN wrote:
22 May 2020, 09:54
It remains strange (mysterious ?) that BRU Airport remains silence in the whole SN debate?? You would expect BRU to be actively looking for solutions, new approach etc to help save their biggest customer. 40% of the traffic is SN at BRU. And it could be more. Is BRU just greedy, lazy, uninterested , amateuristic, stupid or are they a bunch of cowards, hoping that the profits go to them and the burdens to the tax payers. Time for the Government to make some drastic changes there, as this is a matter of national interest.
WAKE UP BRU
No need to shout - they're working on it. Or do you really think that Etienne Davignon, Jan Smets, Dieter Vranckx and Carsten Spohr had no plan B, in case the negotiations with the Belgian government would fail? The reason why you don't hear them (= Brussels Airport), is because people who really want to succeed, don't leak to the press and don't negociate via press releases.
Yuqu12 wrote:
22 May 2020, 09:58
Brussels Airport has said on many occasions that SN should be saved by the Belgian government and that they don't need state aid themselves. There isn't much more which Brussels Airport can do. Giving better conditions to Brussels Airlines only to help them is not allowed under European and international legislation.
The Netherlands is co-owner of Schiphol Airport but gives state to KLM, an airline that they co-owne. So that's no problem.

Brussels Airport has indeed said that the Belgian government should rescue Brussels Airlines. But the longer it takes, the more it seems that the Belgian government fails to do that. And there is an easy way for Brussels Airport to avoid "positive discrimination" claims. Nothing prohibits individual BRU shareholders to show their goodwill...

JOVAN
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by JOVAN »

Yuqu12 wrote:
22 May 2020, 09:58
Brussels Airport has said on many occasions that SN should be saved by the Belgian government and that they don't need state aid themselves. There isn't much more which Brussels Airport can do. Giving better conditions to Brussels Airlines only to help them is not allowed under European and international legislation.
The Netherlands is co-owner of Schiphol Airport but gives state to KLM, an airline that they co-owne. So that's no problem.

Brussels Airport has indeed said that the Belgian government should rescue Brussels Airlines. But the longer it takes, the more it seems that the Belgian government fails to do that. And there is an easy way for Brussels Airport to avoid "positive discrimination" claims. Nothing prohibits individual BRU shareholders to show their goodwill...
Pure (dirty ?) political games going on ??

Blaming the Belgian government now is maybe not very correct; they have expressed their willingness..

Is there maybe a guy from the Calimero-party trying to sabotage the whole issue ????.
Forgot his name but he was CEO f N%BS/SNCB some yeas ago.

If SN disappears is will be black days for BRU.
Easyjet and Ryanair will not save BRU.

BRU makes enormous benefits : Ebidta over 300 mio for turnover of 500 mio is scandalous proprtion, showing that BRU misuses its monopoly.
One would ish CRL takes moer and more PAX from them.

Ansett
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Ansett »

Passenger is probably right when he says that BRU's A.F. has already a plan up his sleeve.
Knowing how A.F. has been behaving so far, he must be in a "wait and see mode", hoping not to have to intervene at the expense of his shareholders. To me it is quite obvious that the man only thinks of his shareholders (that's indeed his job). In spite of his never fading smile, he shows no empathy for anyone else but his shareholders and himself and will only act if he has a knife to his throat. Just like CS, he must be an ultra-neo-liberal who has not perhaps realized, yet, that a major change is in progress which might very well spell the end of this ultra or neo-liberal era. (some more "food" for controversy).

As to CS's vague promises made to SN and the Belgian government, like opening new routes like Miami :o
and (I guess) brand new A321LR/XLR, is just or was just blowing smoke. I don't think that the A321XLR can fly to MIA from BRU. The A321(X)LR can be an ideal aircraft to launch flights to destinations which require only a limited cargo hold, like perhaps BOS, IAD, ORD, YUL, YYZ and maybe some destinations in Africa, as a additional capacity to existing flights (for instance, going from 4 weekly A330 flights to daily connections with 3 A321LR flights, traffic rights permitting, of course). What about a second attempt at BOM with the A321XLR ? If ever SN gets them :?

However, if CS gives in (I'm not sure his ego will accept that) to the demand of the German government to acquire the Airbus aircraft on order (I don't think the A321LR is on order, or is it ?), SN might get some new or nearly new Airbuses, but that will probably not solve the major problem we will be facing in the coming months/years. State aid (and a new role for the State in economic development) seems unavoidable (much to the dislike of some unconditional Thatcher fans).

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

JOVAN wrote:
22 May 2020, 22:35
Pure (dirty ?) political games going on ??
No, I don't say what the Belgian minister of Finance does is dirty - but I do call bluff poker stupid (though the minister himself is intelligent).

JOVAN wrote:
22 May 2020, 22:35
Blaming the Belgian government now is maybe not very correct; they have expressed their willingness..
"Expressed their willingness"? At the contrary. On top of a high interest rate, the government had a whole list of demands (including some demands that no airline can guarantee because the market finally decides). And to make it worse, the government have leaked a confidential letter to Lufthansa to the press.

JOVAN wrote:
22 May 2020, 22:35
Is there maybe a guy from the Calimero-party trying to sabotage the whole issue ????. Forgot his name but he was CEO f N%BS/SNCB some yeas ago.
The NVA-ministers stepped out of the federal government in December 2018, and they also don't support the actual government Wilmès-II. Your statement therefore is quite confusing. Do you really suggest that Marc Descheemaecker, the president of the Board of a privatised airport, can block/sabotage federal decisions? With voodoo perhaps?

JOVAN
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by JOVAN »

JOVAN wrote:
22 May 2020, 22:35
Is there maybe a guy from the Calimero-party trying to sabotage the whole issue ????. Forgot his name but he was CEO f N%BS/SNCB some yeas ago.
The NVA-ministers stepped out of the federal government in December 2018, and they also don't support the actual government Wilmès-II. Your statement therefore is quite confusing. Do you really suggest that Marc Descheemaecker, the president of the Board of a privatised airport, can block/sabotage federal decisions? With voodoo perhaps?
Yes, disastrous CEO he was/is, sabotaging President he is.

So pity for BRU.

LJ
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by LJ »

JOVAN wrote:
22 May 2020, 10:37
AMS is helping KL in a direct and indirect way, to both sides benefit and the benefit of the Dutch government and tax-paying people.
Please explain. I haven't heard of any measure specically aimed at helping KLM. In fact, AMS is as quiet as BRU. The only measures taken are postponing the increase in landing charges from April 1st to June 1st and allow free parking. Yes the latter benefits KLM the most, but Brussels Airlines couls also decide to park its aircraft at AMS if they want.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

JOVAN wrote:
22 May 2020, 23:42
JOVAN wrote:
22 May 2020, 22:35
Is there maybe a guy from the Calimero-party trying to sabotage the whole issue ????. Forgot his name but he was CEO f N%BS/SNCB some yeas ago.
The NVA-ministers stepped out of the federal government in December 2018, and they also don't support the actual government Wilmès-II. Your statement therefore is quite confusing. Do you really suggest that Marc Descheemaecker, the president of the Board of a privatised airport, can block/sabotage federal decisions? With voodoo perhaps?
Yes, disastrous CEO he was/is, sabotaging President he is.

So pity for BRU.
For as far as I know, the Chairman of the Board doesn't intervene in the operation on Brussels Airport: this is the responsibility of the CEO Arnaud Feist, who is not a political appointee.

Could we please abstain from political statements in this forum?
André
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JOVAN
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by JOVAN »

Ansett wrote:
22 May 2020, 23:20
Passenger is probably right when he says that BRU's A.F. has already a plan up his sleeve.
Knowing how A.F. has been behaving so far, he must be in a "wait and see mode", hoping not to have to intervene at the expense of his shareholders. To me it is quite obvious that the man only thinks of his shareholders (that's indeed his job). In spite of his never fading smile, he shows no empathy for anyone else but his shareholders and himself and will only act if he has a knife to his throat. Just like CS, he must be an ultra-neo-liberal who has not perhaps realized, yet, that a major change is in progress which might very well spell the end of this ultra or neo-liberal era. (some more "food" for controversy).
AF is a typical CEO coming from audit companies like KPMG, PWC, etc.

Just figures and not thinking further than his next bonus.

Only the shareholders are happy, certainly the foreign ones.

PAX do not like this expensive, unattractive airport. In all the ratings (Skytrax etc) BRU is performing poorly, always at the end of the list . Poor old-fashioned infrastructure with some parts looking communist-style (80's). Poor services (the best joke is the Pax control, poor maintenance (baggage belts), strikes by subcontractors like baggage handlers who are all at the brink of bankcrupcy because of the criminal contracts BRU makes them swallow. Waiting 45 minutes or more for your baggage is 'normal' at BRU.

The extremely low Transfer PAX numbers show that BRU is NOT attractive for foreign PAX.
AMS, VIE ar doing a lot better.
Subcontractors and their personnel very unhappy and frustrated,
Federal police striking (among other things because poor facilities),
Security personnel doing actions on busy days…

The CEO has a baby face with a fake smile.
BAC is actually responsible for making the whole BRU organisation work smoothly.

Like a Orchestra-conductor or director, or like a dj, they are responsible to avoid any false note.
AF has been very poor at it.
I have known more CEO's with auditors background. Indeed ultra-neo-liberals who care only about their bonus and about the shareholders. Usually this type of CEO's are surrounded by a team of weak managers, who just says yes and lick their …

As I said many times before, it will take many years before BRU will reach 30 mio PAX .

Let us hope this Coronacrisis will open the eyes of some people in the Government.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Few days ago, I wrote that most of the Brussels Airlines employees have left this forum, sick of the personal attacks and insults against their employer. I wonder what the Brussels Airport employees here think when they have to read this:
JOVAN wrote:
23 May 2020, 11:11
AF is a typical CEO coming from audit companies like KPMG, PWC, etc.
The CEO has a baby face with a fake smile.
Ansett wrote:
22 May 2020, 23:20
Knowing how A.F. has been behaving so far, he must be in a "wait and see mode", hoping not to have to intervene at the expense of his shareholders. To me it is quite obvious that the man only thinks of his shareholders (that's indeed his job). In spite of his never fading smile, he shows no empathy for anyone else but his shareholders and himself and will only act if he has a knife to his throat. Just like CS, he must be an ultra-neo-liberal who has not perhaps realized, yet, that a major change is in progress which might very well spell the end of this ultra or neo-liberal era.
(I wouldn't call a country with a global tax burden of 54% "ultra-neo-liberal" (whatever that means). To me, a 54% tax level is more socialist-like).

JOVAN
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by JOVAN »

I have sympathy for Brussels Airlines employees.

My indignation and comments are actually about the BRU Airport management.
Yes, I find them greedy money-wolves.
And I am disappointed that they hide behind a tree when it comes to ( help ) saving their biggest customer SN.
Their silence is ear-deafening and I hope very much that the Government will oblige them to contribute significantly to the safeguarding of the Customers of BRU (airlines, PAX. Subcontractors etc).

Stake holders interest is today's approach for a modern company.

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