Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Inquirer
Posts: 2085
Joined: 14 Feb 2012, 14:30

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

Poiu wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 11:02

Don’t twist my words to deviate the attention from the real problem: the refusal of Brussels Airlines to refund a cancelled flight. I didn’t say immediate refund.
For the moment SN only offers a voucher, which is lost if you don’t rebook or partially lost if one rebooks for a lower fare. That is a substantial difference with KLM and it is basically stealing money from customers..
KLM only offers me a rebooking or a voucher which is lost if I don't rebook. Period.

I can live with that solution, which is now offered by most airlines: if you want your cash back, it will clearly take time.

No difference whatsoever: you're arguing with yourself, sir.

Poiu
Posts: 822
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Inquirer wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 11:03

back to reality -
KLM is not offering me a refund: I can only rebook or take a voucher as you see for yourself on their website; since I have no clue when I'll be able to travel, I took the voucher and will redeem it once the situation becomes clearer. THAT's the reality outside of this forum, sir.
Not correct!!!!
The message from KLM is clear, got one myself btw.
Once again a copy/paste:
“If your flight has been cancelled by the airline, your travel voucher is refundable after 1 year”
https://www.klm.com/travel/be_en/prepar ... c=Email#p4
Last edited by Poiu on 07 Apr 2020, 11:46, edited 4 times in total.

Homo Aeroportus
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Joined: 24 Feb 2007, 18:28
Location: 2300NM due South of North Pole

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

RoMax wrote:
04 Apr 2020, 21:08
Conti764 wrote:
04 Apr 2020, 20:57
rwandan-flyer wrote:
04 Apr 2020, 20:42
Hi.

Anyone knows, why Brussels Airlines is operating a flight between Kigali and Cologne ? Thanks https://www.flightradar24.com/BEL1042/2451cb66
Repatriation I guess.
There has also been a Lomé-Cologne repatriation flight - I believe for the German government (which isn't that weird as it's LHG, on African stations where LH itself doesn't operate).
Indeed, repatriates from EBB were essentially Germans, few Belgians.
Source : NAS EBB.

H.A.

Inquirer
Posts: 2085
Joined: 14 Feb 2012, 14:30

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

Poiu wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 11:39
Inquirer wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 11:03

back to reality -
KLM is not offering me a refund: I can only rebook or take a voucher as you see for yourself on their website; since I have no clue when I'll be able to travel, I took the voucher and will redeem it once the situation becomes clearer. THAT's the reality outside of this forum, sir.
Not correct!!!!
The message from KLM is clear, got one myself btw. I copy/ pasted the difference in a previous post.
If you don’t use the voucher in the next 12 months it becomes refundable.
https://www.klm.com/travel/be_en/prepar ... c=Email#p4
Indeed, exactly just like I've said: no refund, only a rebooking or a voucher is being offered by them.

Why are you constantly arguing with yourself, sir? :roll:

Poiu
Posts: 822
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Inquirer wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 11:47
Poiu wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 11:39
Inquirer wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 11:03

back to reality -
KLM is not offering me a refund: I can only rebook or take a voucher as you see for yourself on their website; since I have no clue when I'll be able to travel, I took the voucher and will redeem it once the situation becomes clearer. THAT's the reality outside of this forum, sir.
Not correct!!!!
The message from KLM is clear, got one myself btw. I copy/ pasted the difference in a previous post.
If you don’t use the voucher in the next 12 months it becomes refundable.
https://www.klm.com/travel/be_en/prepar ... c=Email#p4
Indeed, just like I've said: no refund, only a rebooking or a voucher is by offered by them.

Why are you constantly arguing with yourself, sir? :roll:
Which part of “becomes refundable” don’t you understand?

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RoMax
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Joined: 20 Jun 2009, 16:32

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by RoMax »

Poiu wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 11:39
Not correct!!!!
The message from KLM is clear, got one myself btw.
Once again a copy/paste:
“If your flight has been cancelled by the airline, your travel voucher is refundable after 1 year”
https://www.klm.com/travel/be_en/prepar ... c=Email#p4
The only difference is that KLM is clear on the term, but it also denies you the refund for a year.

SN only specifies "Please be aware that, due to the current extraordinary circumstances, it is not possible to process your refund request within the usual time limits." which is vague yes, but still not a denial of providing customers with a refund. That delay can be 3 months, half a year or also a year like KL.

Lack of clarity is the only blame to give here.

And btw, you complain about the limitations of the €50 voucher, but seem to ignore the fact that this is in addition to your rebooking. Not instead of either the rebooking or the refund.

Poiu
Posts: 822
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Inquirer wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 11:03

Good to see we have a European constitutionalist amongst us here; the well established legal concept of 'pre-judiciele vragen' to the ECJ can thus be taken out of the treaty of the Europen Union again then.
Precedence of European law

According to the precedence principle, European law is superior to the national laws of Member States. The precedence principle applies to all European acts with a binding force. Therefore, Member States may not apply a national rule which contradicts to European law.


https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... M%3Al14548

Poiu
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Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

RoMax wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 11:52

SN only specifies "Please be aware that, due to the current extraordinary circumstances, it is not possible to process your refund request within the usual time limits." which is vague yes, but still not a denial of providing customers with a refund. That delay can be 3 months, half a year or also a year like KL.

Lack of clarity is the only blame to give here.

And btw, you complain about the limitations of the €50 voucher, but seem to ignore the fact that this is in addition to your rebooking. Not instead of either the rebooking or the refund.
The voucher from SN is not refundable, it’s clear: valid for rebooking till April 2021, full stop.
I just pointed to the limitations of the 50€ voucher, it’s only usable if the basic fare of your new booking is more than 50€ more expensive, I would have been nicer to say: covers additional cost up to 50€.

Inquirer
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Joined: 14 Feb 2012, 14:30

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

Poiu wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 11:50
Which part of “becomes refundable” don’t you understand?
Please, for your own sake, stop it: it's getting extrelemy pathetic now….

Romax nailed it: you're just looking for things to make them look bad with and in this case it is clearly backfired because contrary to others, they still handle requests for refunds AND in case a voucher is taken instead, they'l give an extra on top of it...
Others like KLM don't offer the option of a refund any longer even and certaintly don't give any extra with the voucher, since they don't have to: it's the only realistic solution they have.

Enough said about it?

Poiu
Posts: 822
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Inquirer wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 12:06

Please, for your own sake, stop it: it's getting extrelemy pathetic now….

Romax nailed it: you're just looking for things to make them look bad with and in this case it is clearly backfired because contrary to others, they still handle requests for refunds AND in case a voucher is taken instead, they'l give an extra on top of it...
Others like KLM don't offer the option of a refund any longer even and certaintly don't give any extra with the voucher, since they don't have to: it's the only realistic solution they have.

Enough said about it?
No need to become personal nor insulting, just stick to facts.
So please provide me a link with refund instructions!
As I posted before, if you follow the refund tab on manage your booking you always end up on the voucher page.
And contrary to your understanding Romax clearly wrote: refunds are not processed for the moment.

Inquirer
Posts: 2085
Joined: 14 Feb 2012, 14:30

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

Poiu wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 12:04
The voucher from SN is not refundable, it’s clear: valid for rebooking till April 2021, full stop.
Indeed,
because you can get your money back as an alternative if you're sure you're not going to fly and use the voucher...
Or do you have a document stating they will not refund your ticket, like KLM is now saying?
With about 1M passengers flying with them each month, they must be overwhelmed with files, so it may take a (long) while for them to be cleared, but at least they are not saying they are not going to refund you, like KLM is doing based on a (new?) Dutch rule.
Poiu wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 12:04
I just pointed to the limitations of the 50€ voucher, it’s only usable if the basic fare of your new booking is more than 50€ more expensive, I would have been nicer to say: covers additional cost up to 50€.
Like any commercial gratuity, it comes with certain condititions on its use, indeed; what a shame.
Others like KLM - AF don't give you anything… and somehow you seem to like that?
:roll:

Seriously, sir...
are you trying to ruin your own reputation here? Keep on going, I'd say.
I'm out: you're discussing a non-topic, with non-arguments, obviously leading to a nonsense debate.

Poiu
Posts: 822
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Inquirer wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 12:15
Poiu wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 12:04
The voucher from SN is not refundable, it’s clear: valid for rebooking till April 2021, full stop.
Indeed, because you can also get your money back as an alternative if you're sure you're not going to fly and use the voucher...
Or do you have a document stating they will not refund your ticket, like KLM is now saying?
I am clearly not explaining myself well, so I will try again, but can I politely ask you to leave insults behind?
My flights (5 in total) are cancelled by SN and I am not interested in the voucher they offer me and which will become worthless next year.
I do understand they are busy and have other priorities for the moment and that a refund can take some time.
However SN doesn’t allow me to ask for a refund.
At least KLM tells me I will get my money back next year.
Last edited by Poiu on 07 Apr 2020, 12:28, edited 1 time in total.

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

It's simple really and should end all dicussions. The EU law is clear, all airlines not following this are in breach. Re-imbursment should be offered, without delay. Not hidden in thousand pages. Point. Testaankoop I believe is also on this


https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/ ... ger-rights

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

May I kindly suggest that this discussion on refunds stops here? We now know in detail the opinions of both poiu and Inquirer and any further post on the topic would not add anything new. Thanks for your understanding.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Inquirer
Posts: 2085
Joined: 14 Feb 2012, 14:30

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

Poiu wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 12:24
My flights (5 in total) are cancelled by SN and I am not interested in the voucher they offer me and which will become worthless next year.
I do understand they are busy and have other priorities for the moment and that a refund can take some time.
However SN doesn’t allow me to ask for a refund.
I am sure you received their communication stating that your booking remains valid and you can get to them right till the end of August concerning your ticket, even if the date of travel is before?

Since you said you hold 5 tickets, you must have received that mail at least 5 times; my mailbox almost exploded the other day, given I had a lot more than just 5 outstanding tickets with them...

If you're not interested in the voucher, it seems you'll have to wait a bit as for the moment there's no automated system for immediate re-embursement indeed...
You can try through the call center or your travel agency though if you want to insist in a speedy recovery: at work we got our money back for all the flights of last month we didn't fly.
And otherwise, be patient: like I came to experience first hand, at KLM it's "d'office" a one year wait now, no alternative option offered whatsoever so it seems to be a general situation we'll just have to live with.

Don't make such a big deal out of it as you've been doing here: nobody is deliberatly trying to rob you of anything nor being exceptionally unfair to you as a customer, given the unprecedented circumstances.

Inquirer
Posts: 2085
Joined: 14 Feb 2012, 14:30

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

sn26567 wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 12:39
May I kindly suggest that this discussion on refunds stops here? We now know in detail the opinions of both poiu and Inquirer and any further post on the topic would not add anything new. Thanks for your understanding.
Sorry, my above post just crossed yours.
I fully agree with you, so please feel free to remove it as you wish.

Darjeeling
Posts: 252
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 10:13

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Darjeeling »

I won't resume the discussion on refunds, but it's now very clear that SN is in deep need of cash.
Ryanair is very responsive on refunds it seems, this won't help SN commercially either.

Yesterday I could grab some info thanks to a friend working there:
- May 15th is the earliest date to restart SOME operations provided situation is safe and viable to operate
- Repatriation flights are needed and welcome to improve cash situation
- Forward bookings situation is terrible (business travel ban are in place until October for some corporate clients)
- Charter production is put at risk due to tour-operators dangerous situations and much smaller volumes expected
- No real update on cash situation but more cancellations than bookings, I let you draw your own conclusions
- If German State helps LH with a bail-out, it will only be for the Germany based assets (not SN, LX, OS thus).

As for most airlines, it's difficult to hedge fuel as no one can predict the volume that will be needed in the future with the forecast reduced operations. You always need to hedge on fixed volumes.

crew1990
Posts: 1103
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 21:46

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by crew1990 »

A proper airlines based in Brussels can't make money, but in the mean time Belgium have to be linked with an home based carrier. This is to me a little bit like the NMBS/SNCB, it can't be in the green but we need it.

To me Brussels Airlines should be nationalised but also should get rid of all those charter stuff and island destination and focus on a smaller network.

Also there should be a better harmonisation between the network of Brussels Airlines and NMBS/SNCB, so that short route could be operated by train service directly linked with the airport. Having 3 A320 flying BRU-CDG everyday shouldn't be tolerated anymore.

Boavida
Posts: 472
Joined: 14 Sep 2010, 23:54

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

Breaking news from LH Group:
Lufthansa Group decides on first restructuring package

- Significant decline in air travel also expected for period after the Coronavirus crisis
- Suspension of aircraft leads to the first permanent capacity reduction
- The inevitable downsizing of flight operations shall be implemented in a socially responsible manner, among other things, through collective employment models

The Executive Board of Deutsche Lufthansa AG does not expect the aviation industry to return to pre-coronavirus crisis levels very quickly. According to its assessment, it will take months until the global travel restrictions are completely lifted and years until the worldwide demand for air travel returns to pre-crisis levels. Based on this evaluation, today the Executive Board has decided on extensive measures to reduce the capacity of flight operations and administration long term.

The decisions taken today will affect almost all flight operations of the Lufthansa Group.

At Lufthansa, six Airbus A380s and seven A340-600s as well as five Boeing 747-400s will be permanently decommissioned. In addition, eleven Airbus A320s will be withdrawn from short-haul operations.

The six A380s were already scheduled for sale to Airbus in 2022. The decision to phase out seven A340-600s and five Boeing 747-400s was taken based on the environmental as well as economic disadvantages of these aircraft types. With this decision, Lufthansa will be reducing capacity at its hubs in Frankfurt and Munich.

Furthermore, Lufthansa Cityline will also withdraw three Airbus A340-300 aircraft from service. Since 2015, the regional carrier has been operating flights to long-haul tourist destinations for Lufthansa.

Eurowings will also be reducing the number of its aircraft. In the short-haul segment, an additional ten Airbus A320s are planned to be phased out.

Eurowings long-haul business which is run under the commercial responsibility of Lufthansa, will also be reduced.

In addition, the implementation of Eurowings objective of bundling flight operations into only one unit, which was defined before the crisis, will now be accelerated. Germanwings flight operations will be discontinued. All options resulting from this are to be discussed with the respective unions.

The restructuring programs already initiated at Austrian Airlines and Brussels Airlines will be further intensified due to the coronavirus crisis. Among other things, both companies are working on reducing their fleets. SWISS International Air Lines will also adjust its fleet size by delaying deliveries of new short haul aircraft and consider early phase-outs of older aircraft.

In addition, the Lufthansa Group airlines have already terminated almost all wet lease agreements with other airlines.

The aim remains the same for all employees affected by the restructuring measures: to offer as many people as possible continued employment within the Lufthansa Group. Therefore, talks with unions and workers councils are to be arranged quickly to discuss, among other things, new employment models in order to keep as many jobs as possible.
Source: https://newsroom.lufthansagroup.com/eng ... a5d5b2c0d3

Jetter
Posts: 470
Joined: 06 Nov 2015, 21:07

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jetter »

Boavida wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 17:46
The restructuring programs already initiated at Austrian Airlines and Brussels Airlines will be further intensified due to the coronavirus crisis. Among other things, both companies are working on reducing their fleets.
I wonder what the program will be called now. ‘Hard-reset’ instead of reboot? :?

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