Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Poiu
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Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

737MAX wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 08:12
Passenger wrote:
31 Mar 2020, 23:00
...some people who now predict how the bankruptcy of Brussels Airlines will be settled, are at job risk themselves.
And? :roll:


Indeed, unless you’re a healthcare worker, unfortunately, anyone’s job is at risk for the moment.
Some on here still seem to think it will be business as usual when we wake up from this nightmare, once again: I won’t!!! Expect a mild recession at best, and as such it’s a waste of money, we don’t have, to keep a company alive which has been on life support for it’s entire existence, sad but realistic.

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

737MAX wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 08:12
Passenger wrote:
31 Mar 2020, 23:00
Atlantis wrote:
31 Mar 2020, 22:21
...I have the impression that a lot of people still don't get it. Aviation will be drastically changed... All airlines suffer very badly now...
Exactly. And some people who now predict how the bankruptcy of Brussels Airlines will be settled, are at job risk themselves.
And? :roll:
I only said that it's weird that the bankruptcy from just one Belgian airline is discussed in this forum: Brussels Airlines. Whilst actually, two other Belgian carriers are at risk too, with some of their staff predicting how Brussels Airlines' bankruptcy will fold.

Air Belgium was already short of cash just before 31st December 2019, and their largest shareholder Aviation Invest Holding nv/sa has ceased to publish (obligatory) annual accounts. And the German TUI head office has just secured a government bailout -via KfW Bank- of €1,8 Billion (on top of their €1,75B credit facility). Quid TUI Belgium?

Poiu
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Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

Passenger wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 11:38
I only said that it's weird that the bankruptcy from just one Belgian airline is discussed in this forum: Brussels Airlines. Whilst actually, two other Belgian carriers are at risk too, with some of their staff predicting how Brussels Airlines' bankruptcy will fold.
Not weird at all IF you read the title of the topic: “BRUSSELS AIRLINES in 2020”. :roll:

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sean1982 »

Passenger wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 11:38
737MAX wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 08:12
Passenger wrote:
31 Mar 2020, 23:00

Exactly. And some people who now predict how the bankruptcy of Brussels Airlines will be settled, are at job risk themselves.
And? :roll:
I only said that it's weird that the bankruptcy from just one Belgian airline is discussed in this forum: Brussels Airlines. Whilst actually, two other Belgian carriers are at risk too, with some of their staff predicting how Brussels Airlines' bankruptcy will fold.

Air Belgium was already short of cash just before 31st December 2019, and their largest shareholder Aviation Invest Holding nv/sa has ceased to publish (obligatory) annual accounts. And the German TUI head office has just secured a government bailout -via KfW Bank- of €1,8 Billion (on top of their €1,75B credit facility). Quid TUI Belgium?
Difference is that TUI Belgium is the best performing branch of TUI and SN has always been the last of class in the LH group.

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Inquirer »

According to L'echo, the Belgian government has understood it's absolutely KEY to save the Belgian aviation sector in order to give all chances to a quick and successful recovery of our country's very open economy after this pandemy.

For this purpose, the Federal Participation and Investment Corparationy has dedicated 3 of its 8 strategic task forces to work on Belgian aviation: Brussels Airllines, TUI Airlines and the ground service provides (Swissport, Aviapartner and Sabena technics).

Brussels Airport itself does not ask for any financial support from the FPIC, but insists the onces above are sufficiently funded to be able to guarantee an economically suitable aviation landscape at BRU to be of any use to our country's economy still and not be delivered at the mercy of non-existing foreign benefactors over which we have no control whatsoever.
(see how BNP France announced today it intends to drain BNP Fortis -and thus our country- of €2BN in profit to be able to spend it all on France's recovery!)

The CEO of the Federal Participation and Investment Corporation Koen Van Loo himself is heading the team dedicated to Brussels: they are currently looking into the modalities: the Belgian government could become a minority shareholder in Lufthansa proper, or in just Brussels Airlines alone, or a state guarantee could be offered to cover all losses till a certain point in time...

No final form has been chosen as discussions with Lufthansa are currently ongoing because it has to make sense for them too, of course, but a decision is due in the course of April.

https://www.lecho.be/dossiers/coronavir ... 18030.html

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Airbus330lover
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Location: Rixensart

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Airbus330lover »

Inquirer wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 13:48
According to L'echo, the Belgian government has understood it's absolutely KEY to save the Belgian aviation sector in order to give all chances to a quick and successful recovery of our country's very open economy after this pandemy.

For this purpose, the Federal Participation and Investment Corparationy has dedicated 3 of its 8 strategic task forces to work on Belgian aviation: Brussels Airllines, TUI Airlines and the ground service provides (Swissport, Aviapartner and Sabena technics).

Brussels Airport itself does not ask for any financial support from the FPIC, but insists the onces above are sufficiently funded to be able to guarantee an economically suitable aviation landscape at BRU to be of any use to our country's economy still and not be delivered at the mercy of non-existing foreign benefactors over which we have no control whatsoever.
(see how BNP France announced today it intends to drain BNP Fortis -and thus our country- of €2BN in profit to be able to spend it all on France's recovery!)

The CEO of the Federal Participation and Investment Corporation Koen Van Loo himself is heading the team dedicated to Brussels: they are currently looking into the modalities: the Belgian government could become a minority shareholder in Lufthansa proper, or in just Brussels Airlines alone, or a state guarantee could be offered to cover all losses till a certain point in time...

No final form has been chosen as discussions with Lufthansa are currently ongoing because it has to make sense for them too, of course, but a decision is due in the course of April.

https://www.lecho.be/dossiers/coronavir ... 18030.html
No Air Belgium, nor Air Antwerp ? They prefer to give money to LH ? The SR story ?

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cathay belgium
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,

How Belgian is Air Belgium ??
I remember lot of Chinese and a dutch biz. ,No ?
Air Antwerp ,a 100 percent dutch-UK Company.. based in KLM with one plane , why is there a need to save this ?
I love to see that every Company could get help but as Belgium is crippling and a lot of companies need help I'm sure we only save the money making ones or the truely essentials....
A gap of 60 billion and no government...says enough..

CXB




CXB
New types flown 2020 : A321neo,B781
New types planned : E140-E190E2

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Airbus330lover
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Location: Rixensart

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Airbus330lover »

cathay belgium wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 17:42
Hi,

How Belgian is Air Belgium ??
I remember lot of Chinese and a dutch biz. ,No ?
Air Antwerp ,a 100 percent dutch-UK Company.. based in KLM with one plane , why is there a need to save this ?
I love to see that every Company could get help but as Belgium is crippling and a lot of companies need help I'm sure we only save the money making ones or the truely essentials....
A gap of 60 billion and no government...says enough..

CXB




CXB
OK, and SN is german, TUI the same..... ;)

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Atlantis
Posts: 4424
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Atlantis »

Airbus330lover wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 20:10
cathay belgium wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 17:42
Hi,

How Belgian is Air Belgium ??
I remember lot of Chinese and a dutch biz. ,No ?
Air Antwerp ,a 100 percent dutch-UK Company.. based in KLM with one plane , why is there a need to save this ?
I love to see that every Company could get help but as Belgium is crippling and a lot of companies need help I'm sure we only save the money making ones or the truely essentials....
A gap of 60 billion and no government...says enough..

CXB




CXB
OK, and SN is german, TUI the same..... ;)
This is for a lot of airlines the case. A lot of them don't belong to the country anymore but to private external companies.
But in this case we cannot look at it and have to help them, even to take minor participation in it again if possible.

What SN, TUI and the smaller handling companies are asking is not too much in my opinion

Also AA and DL announced today that much more planes will leave the fleet. The same will be for SN if they would focus on being a business company.
Most of the airlines will be smaller, moderner but more efficient.

Also Brussels Airport will recover very strong after this

737MAX
Posts: 446
Joined: 29 Aug 2017, 08:46

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by 737MAX »

@Atlantis; I have one little tip for you.

Never use « will » in aviation.

With such a tone, you cannot be credible.

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Atlantis
Posts: 4424
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Atlantis »

737MAX wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 22:19
@Atlantis; I have one little tip for you.

Never use « will » in aviation.

With such a tone, you cannot be credible.
I know, but we never give up and we always look forward. That's why we, not only me, are using "will" 😉

But I know what your point is. Aviation is unpredictable. When something is happening, it has an effect on aviation

PS I think that I showed many times that I'm very credible 😊

737MAX
Posts: 446
Joined: 29 Aug 2017, 08:46

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by 737MAX »

Atlantis wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 22:34

I know, but we never give up and we always look forward. That's why we, not only me, are using "will" 😉

But I know what your point is. Aviation is unpredictable. When something is happening, it has an effect on aviation

PS I think that I showed many times that I'm very credible 😊
Optimism is always welcome ;)
And of course you bring interesting info here :!:

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Conti764
Posts: 1728
Joined: 21 Sep 2007, 23:21

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Atlantis wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 22:00
Airbus330lover wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 20:10
cathay belgium wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 17:42
Hi,

How Belgian is Air Belgium ??
I remember lot of Chinese and a dutch biz. ,No ?
Air Antwerp ,a 100 percent dutch-UK Company.. based in KLM with one plane , why is there a need to save this ?
I love to see that every Company could get help but as Belgium is crippling and a lot of companies need help I'm sure we only save the money making ones or the truely essentials....
A gap of 60 billion and no government...says enough..

CXB




CXB
OK, and SN is german, TUI the same..... ;)
This is for a lot of airlines the case. A lot of them don't belong to the country anymore but to private external companies.
But in this case we cannot look at it and have to help them, even to take minor participation in it again if possible.

What SN, TUI and the smaller handling companies are asking is not too much in my opinion

Also AA and DL announced today that much more planes will leave the fleet. The same will be for SN if they would focus on being a business company.
Most of the airlines will be smaller, moderner but more efficient.

Also Brussels Airport will recover very strong after this
There are several options for BRU to help home airlines getting through this situation. Lowering landing fees for about two years f.e... Other airlines will have this advantage as well but by being the biggest operators at the airport, SN and TUI will profit most of it (at BRU).

I could understand BRU would postpone some investments but I do hope they'll go ahead with expansion plans like A-pier West. You'll need top tier facilities in order to attract (keep attracting) airlines.

Bralo20
Posts: 1448
Joined: 12 Aug 2008, 13:48

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bralo20 »

Airbus330lover wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 17:12


No Air Belgium, nor Air Antwerp ? They prefer to give money to LH ? The SR story ?
No, according to the latest info leaking out (and HLN did publish it also a a bit ago) the Belgian government is looking if it's possible to take over Brussels Airlines from Lufthansa. They suspect that LH won't have the funds for SN and they deem SN necessary for the Belgian economy. So it seems that SN will become Belgian again... Biggest question will be at which price...

DeltaWiskey
Posts: 590
Joined: 13 Oct 2010, 18:33

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by DeltaWiskey »

Conti764 wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 10:13
I could understand BRU would postpone some investments but I do hope they'll go ahead with expansion plans like A-pier West. You'll need top tier facilities in order to attract (keep attracting) airlines.
Why would BRU do that? 2019 passengers levels are probably only coming back by 2023 to 2025, hence, no urgent need to increase terminal capacity at BRU.

I also don't understand why so many on this forum would like to see SN fail. If SN goes bankrupt, there will not be a new Belgian carrier! Many investors have already burnt their hand once, they will not do it a 2nd time.
The traffic will be taken over by Ryanair, Easyjet, Wizzair, or if "we" are lucky Transavia or Level, the latter two have at least some decent working conditions.
It's not in the interest of our country that BRU will be dominated by an ULCC like Wizzair or Ryanair, many high paying jobs will disappear.

Boavida
Posts: 472
Joined: 14 Sep 2010, 23:54

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

Bralo20 wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 11:59
Airbus330lover wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 17:12


No Air Belgium, nor Air Antwerp ? They prefer to give money to LH ? The SR story ?
No, according to the latest info leaking out (and HLN did publish it also a a bit ago) the Belgian government is looking if it's possible to take over Brussels Airlines from Lufthansa. They suspect that LH won't have the funds for SN and they deem SN necessary for the Belgian economy. So it seems that SN will become Belgian again... Biggest question will be at which price...
I have read this too. Apparently there is a group of experts studying how to save important, strategic Belgian companies. I hope they (and the government) realise that a home carrier like SN is absolutely essential and needs to be saved, even at a high cost. We simply cannot afford to loose our flag carrier (again!), because like someone already mentioned there probably won't be a new one anymore.

Apparently Belfius is involved in mobilising funds.

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Conti764
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Joined: 21 Sep 2007, 23:21

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

DeltaWiskey wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 12:08
Conti764 wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 10:13
I could understand BRU would postpone some investments but I do hope they'll go ahead with expansion plans like A-pier West. You'll need top tier facilities in order to attract (keep attracting) airlines.
Why would BRU do that? 2019 passengers levels are probably only coming back by 2023 to 2025, hence, no urgent need to increase terminal capacity at BRU.
I don't know the current status of the project, of course... But building something in Belgium (especially Flanders) takes a huge amount of time. So in order to be ready by the time aviation will recover from Covid-19 in a couple of years, BRU shouldn't postpone this project and be ready by then.
I also don't understand why so many on this forum would like to see SN fail. If SN goes bankrupt, there will not be a new Belgian carrier! Many investors have already burnt their hand once, they will not do it a 2nd time.
I fully agree.

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Yuqu12
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Yuqu12 »

It is logic to save the biggest airline in Belgium. It is the biggest player at Brussels Airport which is the second biggest employer of the country. And as already said before, it seems unlikely that the gap of Brussels Airlines falling away will be filled immediately. I think the cost of taking over Brussels Airlines may be not as high as some think: if LH is in need of money because the government doesn't give (enough), they'll have to take whatever they can get from governments taking over not only SN but also Austrian rather than facing 2 bankruptcies in their group. Personally, I think it is a good idea that Belfius as semi-governmental bank mobilises the funds rather than the government itself. I don't think it is in the benefit of any airline that politicians come and decide the flight it is taking as they don't have the same level of understanding than current CEO's and members of the board.

We'll see what happens, but I really hope the government follows the advise of this experts group who do seem to understand the importance of SN for the Belgian economy. A second Sabena scenario next to the economic consequences of the coronavirus should be avoided and will cost probably even more than giving a bank the task to help re-nationalise SN

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Boavida wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 12:27
Bralo20 wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 11:59
Airbus330lover wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 17:12


No Air Belgium, nor Air Antwerp ? They prefer to give money to LH ? The SR story ?
No, according to the latest info leaking out (and HLN did publish it also a a bit ago) the Belgian government is looking if it's possible to take over Brussels Airlines from Lufthansa. They suspect that LH won't have the funds for SN and they deem SN necessary for the Belgian economy. So it seems that SN will become Belgian again... Biggest question will be at which price...
I have read this too. Apparently there is a group of experts studying how to save important, strategic Belgian companies. I hope they (and the government) realise that a home carrier like SN is absolutely essential and needs to be saved, even at a high cost. We simply cannot afford to loose our flag carrier (again!), because like someone already mentioned there probably won't be a new one anymore.

Apparently Belfius is involved in mobilising funds.
If what I read in the press is correct, the sense of urgency to save SN (and Tui Belgium?) is there. I assume it would be a scenario like saving the banks by either a Fortis-scenario (minority stake for the state through the FPIM with either LH or another party as main shareholder) or a Dexia/Belfius-scenario (taking over the company in full).

I'm far from an expert but given the particular situation both companies are in, I could imagine a Fortis-scenario for Tui and a Belfius-scenario for SN.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Yuqu12 wrote:
02 Apr 2020, 12:35
It is logic to save the biggest airline in Belgium. It is the biggest player at Brussels Airport which is the second biggest employer of the country. And as already said before, it seems unlikely that the gap of Brussels Airlines falling away will be filled immediately. I think the cost of taking over Brussels Airlines may be not as high as some think: if LH is in need of money because the government doesn't give (enough), they'll have to take whatever they can get from governments taking over not only SN but also Austrian rather than facing 2 bankruptcies in their group. Personally, I think it is a good idea that Belfius as semi-governmental bank mobilises the funds rather than the government itself. I don't think it is in the benefit of any airline that politicians come and decide the flight it is taking as they don't have the same level of understanding than current CEO's and members of the board.

We'll see what happens, but I really hope the government follows the advise of this experts group who do seem to understand the importance of SN for the Belgian economy. A second Sabena scenario next to the economic consequences of the coronavirus should be avoided and will cost probably even more than giving a bank the task to help re-nationalise SN
Belfius is fully owned by the Belgian government.

And indeed, the state 'taking over' SN should not lead to a new Sabena.

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