Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

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MKAirlines
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by MKAirlines » 17 Jun 2019, 23:24

luchtzak wrote:
17 Jun 2019, 21:58
DIfficult to understand the text, but only the Western part will be closed.
Thanks to these actions the following flights are diverting from OST to CGN:

MSX522 CAI-OST SU-GAS
MSX528 CAI-OST SU-GCE

Again loss of revenue for several suppliers and the Airline, due to the actions of the staff at this state company that is severely lacking good guidance.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 » 17 Jun 2019, 23:55

Penalties in view for Skeyes!
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Passenger
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Passenger » 18 Jun 2019, 07:47

14th June, press release by the unions: results from the negociations are not good enough yet... management still hasn't given in to all our demands... there is slow progress, but most probably there will be no partial strike...
https://www.hln.be/nieuws/binnenland/no ... ~ab58d76a/

17th June: partial strike.
MKAirlines wrote:
17 Jun 2019, 23:24
Again loss of revenue for several suppliers and the Airline, due to the actions of the staff at this state company that is severely lacking good guidance.
The problem with Skeyes is not "good guidance", but "responsible ATC staff".

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 » 18 Jun 2019, 10:47

Passenger wrote:
18 Jun 2019, 07:47
14th June, press release by the unions: results from the negociations are not good enough yet... management still hasn't given in to all our demands... there is slow progress, but most probably there will be no partial strike...
https://www.hln.be/nieuws/binnenland/no ... ~ab58d76a/

17th June: partial strike.
MKAirlines wrote:
17 Jun 2019, 23:24
Again loss of revenue for several suppliers and the Airline, due to the actions of the staff at this state company that is severely lacking good guidance.
The problem with Skeyes is not "good guidance", but "responsible ATC staff".
You're talking about "strike". But when I read the message from the Eurocontrol Network Manager, I read "staff shortage"
Do you have any extra information allowing you to confirm this is a strike ? If you do thank you for sharing because as far as I know, there is no more valid strike notice at skeyes.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg » 18 Jun 2019, 15:26

Staff shortage in this case means there are not enough controllers at work for a specific shift to ensure business continuity during the whole shift.

How can this happen?

Combination of several factors:

1) several controllers call sick for the same shift
Is it just a coincidence?

2) no (or not enough) controller(s) accept(s) to come to work on an off day for a recall
Is it also a coincidence?

3) nobody from the previous shift (in this case the afternoon shift) agrees to stay at work longer to give people working at night the necessary breaks (controller's shifts can be legally be extended beyond the normal working hours if necessary)
Has any controller been told to stay longer? Or has it not been considered? (then it is intentional) Or have they refused to stay? (which means breaking the rules)

4) with some flexibility, a workable seating plan is possible with only very few qualified controllers to avoid a total closure. It would be interesting to know how many qualified controllers (per sector) were at work. Why was it not possible?

5) with some good will, west sector can be bypassed for traffic inbound to any belgian airport: Brussels, Antwerp and Charleroi are reachable via the eastern part of Belgium (and also via Brussels Approach), Oostende is reachable via Lille, UK or Dutch airspace. Liège is not directly affected if flights fly around west sector(s). Has it been proposed to the flights inbound to Oostende?

After we know the answer to all these questions, we can say if it was intentional (then it would fit into the "strike" category) or not...

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 » 18 Jun 2019, 16:21

mvg wrote:
18 Jun 2019, 15:26
Staff shortage in this case means there are not enough controllers at work for a specific shift to ensure business continuity during the whole shift.

How can this happen?

Combination of several factors:

1) several controllers call sick for the same shift
Is it just a coincidence?

2) no (or not enough) controller(s) accept(s) to come to work on an off day for a recall
Is it also a coincidence?

3) nobody from the previous shift (in this case the afternoon shift) agrees to stay at work longer to give people working at night the necessary breaks (controller's shifts can be legally be extended beyond the normal working hours if necessary)
Has any controller been told to stay longer? Or has it not been considered? (then it is intentional) Or have they refused to stay? (which means breaking the rules)

4) with some flexibility, a workable seating plan is possible with only very few qualified controllers to avoid a total closure. It would be interesting to know how many qualified controllers (per sector) were at work. Why was it not possible?

5) with some good will, west sector can be bypassed for traffic inbound to any belgian airport: Brussels, Antwerp and Charleroi are reachable via the eastern part of Belgium (and also via Brussels Approach), Oostende is reachable via Lille, UK or Dutch airspace. Liège is not directly affected if flights fly around west sector(s). Has it been proposed to the flights inbound to Oostende?

After we know the answer to all these questions, we can say if it was intentional (then it would fit into the "strike" category) or not...
And don't forget the number one question : is there still enough manpower in skeyes control center to fill all required shifts ?

SR20
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 » 19 Jun 2019, 17:37

Air traffic controllers go online to oppose extension of CEO’s mandate

https://www.brusselstimes.com/all-news/ ... s-mandate/

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 20 Jun 2019, 07:55

SR20 wrote:
18 Jun 2019, 10:47

You're talking about "strike". But when I read the message from the Eurocontrol Network Manager, I read "staff shortage"
Do you have any extra information allowing you to confirm this is a strike ? If you do thank you for sharing because as far as I know, there is no more valid strike notice at skeyes.
No he does not.
2 acc controllers called sick, because they were sick.
Nobody wanted to replace them, because nothing has changed compared to 5 months ago. Management attempted to commandeer air traffic controllers, they passed since our management has no legal grounds to do so.
Management decided to close the West sector in favor of the East sector.

And just for your information.
Skeyes lawyers have officially declared in court, that there were no irregularities found with ANY air traffic controllers calling in sick since the start of this whole situation.

From a Belga press release regarding this courtcase:

Volgens skeyes hebben controleartsen trouwens vastgesteld dat alle luchtverkeersleiders die zich als ziek opgaven, ook echt ziek waren. "Het ging dus om overmacht", aldus nog de advocaten van het bedrijf."

From the twitter of Frederik Ureel, Belga aviation journalist following this case directly in court:

Nog opvallend in pleidooi skeyes, tekorten waren niet het gevolg van doelbewuste acties want controleartsen hebben vastgesteld dat alle luchtverkeersleiders die zich ziek meldden, ook echt ziek waren, klonk het. (Anderen weigerden wel vrijwillig in te springen)

That's odd, didnt read about that anywhere in the national press?

And to react to mvgs point 3, 4 and 5.

Point 3 and 4 are actually about our goodwill, which we don't have anymore.
Negotiations are going horrible and are still a monologue where everything we say is being ignored.
We're being lied to and about multiple times on weekly basis.
We're not violating any rules.

Point 5 requires official contingency procedures, this is not about our goodwill at all. The procedures are simply not there.

There is still the same massive shortage in canac.

AirOpinion
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by AirOpinion » 20 Jun 2019, 09:03

In the meantime at one of your most precious customers.

https://www.tijd.be/ondernemen/luchtvaa ... s/10138083

You could assume that the millions of EU261 costs generated by these work stoppages/industrial actions/staff shortages have nothing to do with the games being played at your kindergarten company (on both sides unions and management). In reality however they represent a conciderable part of the red numbers at Brussels Airlines.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Passenger » 20 Jun 2019, 09:37

Phoenixx wrote:
20 Jun 2019, 07:55
Skeyes lawyers have officially declared in court, that there were no irregularities found with ANY air traffic controllers calling in sick since the start of this whole situation. From a Belga press release regarding this courtcase: "Volgens skeyes hebben controleartsen trouwens vastgesteld dat alle luchtverkeersleiders die zich als ziek opgaven, ook echt ziek waren. "Het ging dus om overmacht", aldus nog de advocaten van het bedrijf."

From the twitter of Frederik Ureel, Belga aviation journalist following this case directly in court: "Nog opvallend in pleidooi skeyes, tekorten waren niet het gevolg van doelbewuste acties want controleartsen hebben vastgesteld dat alle luchtverkeersleiders die zich ziek meldden, ook echt ziek waren, klonk het. (Anderen weigerden wel vrijwillig in te springen)".

That's odd, didnt read about that anywhere in the national press?
Most probably, the word "sick" hasn't been used in court. For such matters, it's about the certificate "medically unfit to perform the duties". Medical counter checks are useless for intelligent people like you. You know you just have to declare the same issue as you did to the doctor who issued the absence note". Example of a valid "illness" reason for an ATC: overstressed. That's impossible to refute during a counter check, unless the doctor catches you in a hammock (hangmat) in your garden, with a glass of chardonnay. Counter checks will only refute the original certificate if someone declared "I have the flu", and a counter check shows no signs of fever, soar troat, musscle pain, ... Or when the initial certificate stated "forbiden to leave home", and one is absent during two counter checks".

(I have edited the format from the initial post. I have not edited the content)

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx » 20 Jun 2019, 10:35

AirOpinion wrote:
20 Jun 2019, 09:03
In the meantime at one of your most precious customers.

You could assume that the millions of EU261 costs generated by these work stoppages/industrial actions/staff shortages have nothing to do with the games being played at your kindergarten company (on both sides unions and management). In reality however they represent a conciderable part of the red numbers at Brussels Airlines.
At no point I denied a correlation between the 2 situations.
Do you honestly think we enjoy working in a kindergarten?
We want the peace returned and all shifts filled all the same like you.
Passenger wrote:
20 Jun 2019, 09:37
Most probably, the word "sick" hasn't been used in court. For such matters, it's about the certificate "medically unfit to perform the duties". Medical counter checks are useless for intelligent people like you. You know you just have to declare the same issue as you did to the doctor who issued the absence note". Example of a valid "illness" reason for an ATC: overstressed. That's impossible to refute during a counter check, unless the doctor catches you in a hammock (hangmat) in your garden, with a glass of chardonnay. Counter checks will only refute the original certificate if someone declared "I have the flu", and a counter check shows no signs of fever, soar troat, musscle pain, ... Or when the initial certificate stated "forbiden to leave home", and one is absent during two counter checks".

(I have edited the format from the initial post. I have not edited the content)
Nice to see you are at least started trying to figure out what a situation might imply instead of just copying whatever is written and taking it as the absolute one and only truth.
Sad to see you're only doing this with information that does not stroke with your vision.
So you can assume what you want, but you can stop claiming these are hidden strikes if even our employer gave up on attempting to shame us like this, it seems to me.

Are you implying an overstressed controller should just come to work? We appreciate the protection that we and all airspace users have because of this, we do not abuse these procedures
If you honestly believe we did, do you think the closures would be limited to what they have been in the last month?
I have not been sick once the last 6 months, and I have not called unfit to work either in the last 2 years, so you can save your speech though.

There is no decent standby system in this company, no procedures to guarantee a 24/7 full staffing and no more bottomless goodwill on our side (for most of us) to sacrifice any more of our time to help out if they are once again shortstaffed.
Because nothing changes structurally if we would help out.
Mopping the floor with the water running is the dutch expression?
There are still no solutions on the table, only empty emergency measures that will create other issues and pointless suggestions that will not solve anything (but they sound great on paper).

Edit: oh right, and a CEO who thinks he's doing great and wants to give the world 6 more years of his view despite what anyone else says or thinks and agreements supported by a union that represents 3/265 employees the agreement is about. (where even those 3 don't agree)
We do have that.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Acid-drop » 20 Jun 2019, 22:55

Great video again

(Maybe not the right topic for it, feel free to move it)

My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by luchtzak » 21 Jun 2019, 12:33

This night between 01:30 and 04:30 (UTC +2), the Eastern part of Belgian airspace below 24,500 feet will be closed, skeyes announced. The reason is lack of air traffic controllers. Liège Airport is impacted by the closure.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 » 21 Jun 2019, 16:39

luchtzak wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 12:33
This night between 01:30 and 04:30 (UTC +2), the Eastern part of Belgian airspace below 24,500 feet will be closed, skeyes announced. The reason is lack of air traffic controllers. Liège Airport is impacted by the closure.
Liege Airport will remain accessible during airspace closure !

A2183/19
From:21 JUN 19 23:30 Till:22 JUN 19 02:30
Text:LIEGE TMA ONE, THREE, FOUR AND FIVE UPPER LIMITS RAISED TO FL085. AVBL FOR TFC INBD AND OUBD EBLG ONLY

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 » 08 Jul 2019, 18:07

The next meeting between the unions and skeyes management will take place on 23 August. Meanwhile, there should not be any strikes or disturbances in Belgien skies.
André
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 » 10 Jul 2019, 12:35

In exactly 100 workdays, civil and military air traffic controllers in Belgium will be working under the same roof at skeyes. Preparations are well on track.

I wonder what the atmosphere will be when they compare their respective salaries...
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by jan_olieslagers » 10 Jul 2019, 13:02

Yes indeed. Perhaps the differences in workload will be even more striking.

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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by KriVa » 10 Jul 2019, 14:28

More than a few civil ATCOs are ex military. Working conditions, traffic load, salary,... are hardly a secret.
Thomas

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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 » 12 Jul 2019, 23:09

Strange that nobody mentioned yet that the West sector will be closed tonight from 01:30 to 04:30 because ATCOs called in sick...

NOTAM A2436/19
From:12 JUL 19 23:30 Till:13 JUL 19 02:30
Text:BRUSSELS ACC SECTORS NORTH LOW, WEST HIGH, WEST LOW CLSD DUE TO STAFF SHORTAGE. EMERG FREQ ARE WATCHED
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 » 18 Jul 2019, 08:30

KriVa wrote:
10 Jul 2019, 14:28
More than a few civil ATCOs are ex military. Working conditions, traffic load, salary,... are hardly a secret.
General Vansina, chief of the BAF, told me at a recent conference that military ATCOs were earning FIVE times less than skeyes ATCOs.

And they are not allowed to strike!

How are they ever going to live together?
André
ex Sabena #26567

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