Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

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sn26567
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 »

Maybe I missed something: what's the retirement age for atcos? What I mean is that, if an atco retired at, say, 60, he might still be able to come back part time to help fill the voids.
André
ex Sabena #26567

convair
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by convair »

sn26567 wrote: 23 Apr 2019, 09:13 Maybe I missed something: what's the retirement age for atcos? What I mean is that, if an atco retired at, say, 60, he might still be able to come back part time to help fill the voids.
I was just going to ask the same question, in relation to the fact that senior controllers become managers.

@ Phoenixx: I praise your patience and your willingness to give a lot of meaningfull explanations about your job.

I have 1 more question for you:
I don't get this seniority thing; "mvg" is right, I think, in pointing out that a good controller doesn't necessarily make a good manager; so, what are the alternatives for controllers who reach their (pardon the expression :) )" programmed obsolescence"?

Bracebrace
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Bracebrace »

convair wrote: 23 Apr 2019, 09:52I don't get this seniority thing; "mvg" is right, I think, in pointing out that a good controller doesn't necessarily make a good manager;
Whatever your background, management is a different ballgame and needs training. In multinationals you grow in a "triangle" and receive special training, some people are even send back to school when the potential is there.

Unfortunately in Belgium this ideology does not exist, and even more unfortunate, it destroys any company formerly owned by the state and faces real "management" requirement. Schools, hospitals,... the worst being NMBS. All these "institutions" face a "fight" by "lower people" who think their work and pay is "required" and they are now being "managed" by people who are completely incapable of doing so (growing "inside" though technical job skills or seniority now required to do management without training). Where unions have existed before, they have become stronger because people are scared to lose privileges they now consider "standard".

Everything I read and hear about Skeyes is nothing more than this. Service needs to be quantified and will be checked by "customers". Atco's will have to understand, like everyone else, they will lose privileges as they are privileges. They are supposed to become competitive and offer a good service, work will have to be quantified and targets achieved, if not you will be questioned. And with questioned I don't mean by an instructor or senior person, I mean hard numbers and reasons why numbers are not achieved: economic performance (BTW pilots are faced with this struggle almost on a daily basis ever since the bankrupcy of Sabena - salary/roster/benefits vs work performance and airline performance, however one can question if Skeyes can go bankrupt...)

Current management, like in NMBS or any hospital is usually unable to "manage" the changes and ends up in a dictatorial fashion of control, or no-decision making and complete standstill...

Sad evolution, from both sides. It's not a bad thing German controllers are involved now. Maybe somebody will realise an ATCO can sit anywhere in the world...

mvg
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg »

Dispo is at 57 (if full career), salary 4500€ after tax until the pension at 67 (3500€ after tax)

@Bracebrace
Not every Atco can sit anywhere in the world: many have tried and most of them have come back (either they failed or found the conditions too hard abroad).
Those who stayed abroad had private reasons to do so.

Bracebrace
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Bracebrace »

I don't mean that, I mean a German ATCO can sit in Germany and be trained to cover Belgian airspace... Politics seem to imply that are not opposed to that idea.

mvg
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg »

Even if politics decide to go ahead with such project it is very unlikely to happen because German controllers (just an example) will have to be trained by those who are qualified now on those sectors... Do you think that they are going to cooperate to have Germans taking over their job?

SR20
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 »

mvg wrote: 23 Apr 2019, 11:32 Dispo is at 57 (if full career)
At 58 now 😉, if full carreer as you say !

mvg
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg »

How old are the last ones who just left?

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

Bracebrace wrote: 23 Apr 2019, 10:30
convair wrote: 23 Apr 2019, 09:52I don't get this seniority thing; "mvg" is right, I think, in pointing out that a good controller doesn't necessarily make a good manager;
Whatever your background, management is a different ballgame and needs training. In multinationals you grow in a "triangle" and receive special training, some people are even send back to school when the potential is there.

Unfortunately in Belgium this ideology does not exist, and even more unfortunate, it destroys any company formerly owned by the state and faces real "management" requirement. Schools, hospitals,... the worst being NMBS. All these "institutions" face a "fight" by "lower people" who think their work and pay is "required" and they are now being "managed" by people who are completely incapable of doing so (growing "inside" though technical job skills or seniority now required to do management without training). Where unions have existed before, they have become stronger because people are scared to lose privileges they now consider "standard".

Everything I read and hear about Skeyes is nothing more than this. Service needs to be quantified and will be checked by "customers". Atco's will have to understand, like everyone else, they will lose privileges as they are privileges. They are supposed to become competitive and offer a good service, work will have to be quantified and targets achieved, if not you will be questioned. And with questioned I don't mean by an instructor or senior person, I mean hard numbers and reasons why numbers are not achieved: economic performance (BTW pilots are faced with this struggle almost on a daily basis ever since the bankrupcy of Sabena - salary/roster/benefits vs work performance and airline performance, however one can question if Skeyes can go bankrupt...)

Current management, like in NMBS or any hospital is usually unable to "manage" the changes and ends up in a dictatorial fashion of control, or no-decision making and complete standstill...

Sad evolution, from both sides. It's not a bad thing German controllers are involved now. Maybe somebody will realise an ATCO can sit anywhere in the world...
I agree 100 percent in not making management a standard option in the careerpath.
But again, you're missing some information. There is a recent program in skeyes where some atcos are being trained to join management, this includes both 'on the job training' and proper reschooling.
They were not selected on seniority, but rather on 'management potential'.
Only small issue here, is that while you get to say you have expanded your management with practical experience and insights (which is a good thing if done properly), they are chosen by the current management (they lose a certain independence a state worker is supposed to have) and there might be some question to the selection procedure. Obviously it's not the most critical thinkers that are selected.
If you catch my drift.
As a side note; our COO is an ex air traffic controller and while I make absolutely no negative statement regarding her skills for her job or her training, we do experience questionable decisions and an immense difference in shifted priorities.

If you had read some more of my earlier comments, you would see we understand this very well.
We were doing well in the numbers and statistics, but the necessary support did not follow. (staffing, training, feedback and follow up on safety incidents, a simple thank you or recognition for continued effort...)
We have reasons why the numbers are not achieved now. Only issue is, they are being lied about as it would make it clear management is responsible for under staffing by cutting costs in training.
Had they done one or two trainings for canac a few years ago, we would not be faced with this issue today, we probably wouldn't even be talking here as this topic would have never existed in the first place.
Good numbers (punctuality, delays, customer statisfaction) are a goal atcos are more than happy to help achieve, provided the company supports and enables you to achieve these good numbers ofcourse.
At the moment, the good numbers are on a very small group of peoples minds only, top management.
"a dictatorial fashion of control" gave me a good laugh though, a nice way to describe it.

And ehm, what do you think Eurocontrol (just as an example) does?
There is nothing new about controlling airspace from a remote location, with area control centers this is a very simple step. skeyes is also looking at remote towers, which could be installed anywhere all the same.
But you will end up at the same issue as always, politics.
When it comes to it, countries are never eager to give up on this kind of control.
They are screaming fire and murder to publicly profile themselves (elections coming up you know), but don't dare to take the proper decisions.
We atcos have a lot less problem with privatization than you would expect or think.
But just to be clear, the Germans are not exactly the asking party to start controlling in Belgian airspace either. For now, they simply enable (NOT control) a corridor to Liège under very specific circumstances and condiditons. Technically they are less involved than when acc east sector is working normally.

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

sn26567 wrote: 23 Apr 2019, 09:13 Maybe I missed something: what's the retirement age for atcos? What I mean is that, if an atco retired at, say, 60, he might still be able to come back part time to help fill the voids.
There are many options.
Non-ops, training, (non-licensed) unit supervisor, signing up for a longer period and continuing air traffic control, ...
But how many canac controllers do you think really want to do this?
Can you blame them? (probably you can and you do, but objectively this should not be a surprise...)
Again, they have to be fit enough and up for it.
Waiting for incidents and then saying "oh, maybe it was a bit too much to have this person working operationally till 63" is far from optimal I would say. Because then whose fault will it be? Exactly.
Other ansps (here we go again) have maximum ages to work operationally too, not with the idea of retiring afterwards, but to continue in support, non ops and training. With a shortage in operational staff, this is ofcourse not really an option now.

Poiu
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Poiu »

Off topic:
Despite the completely opposite opinions here the discussion remains to the point and polite!
I am impressed, the best topic we had in years, the way to go.

Passenger
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Passenger »

Dear atco’s, stop arguing that it’s not about money. It is about money. “Better working conditions” is just a cover-up to defend the disruption of service. Luckily someone leaked from those negociations: “we demand 32 hours, no time registration”.

Some have asked why CEO Johan Decuyper hasn’t joined the debate in the media earlier or firmer. Simply: he’s the CEO, and Skeyes has two spokesmen (Dominique Dehaene and Alain Kniebs).

Is Johan Decuyper really that bad as CEO? I don’t him, so I don’t know. What I do know, is that he seems to be highly qualified to manage a state owned company in a sofisticated branch:
https://be.linkedin.com/in/johan-decuyper-4b5a065

Regarding the illnesses – denied by some here: last weekend, the minister told that more then one fake sickness absense was registered. There were also reports in the press, referring again to the minister, that at least ten atco’s earn more then the prime minister. That’s a lot more then the amounts then some here told. And both remarks proof that some posts from atco's here are not correct.
https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20190420_04342852
https://plus.lesoir.be/219832/article/2 ... -multiples

And even when the aim of the strike would be “more respect”, then please end your disrespect towards those not involved in your dispute. Or do you think that a last-minute-cancelled cargo flight means “no revenue, thus no cost”?

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

Passenger wrote: 23 Apr 2019, 13:48 Dear atco’s, stop arguing that it’s not about money. It is about money. “Better working conditions” is just a cover-up to defend the disruption of service. Luckily someone leaked from those negociations: “we demand 32 hours, no time registration”.

Some have asked why CEO Johan Decuyper hasn’t joined the debate in the media earlier or firmer. Simply: he’s the CEO, and Skeyes has two spokesmen (Dominique Dehaene and Alain Kniebs).

Is Johan Decuyper really that bad as CEO? I don’t him, so I don’t know. What I do know, is that he seems to be highly qualified to manage a state owned company in a sofisticated branch:
https://be.linkedin.com/in/johan-decuyper-4b5a065

Regarding the illnesses – denied by some here: last weekend, the minister told that more then one fake sickness absense was registered. There were also reports in the press, referring again to the minister, that at least ten atco’s earn more then the prime minister. That’s a lot more then the amounts then some here told. And both remarks proof that some posts from atco's here are not correct.
https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20190420_04342852
https://plus.lesoir.be/219832/article/2 ... -multiples

And even when the aim of the strike would be “more respect”, then please end your disrespect towards those not involved in your dispute. Or do you think that a last-minute-cancelled cargo flight means “no revenue, thus no cost”?
Had a good laugh, well chosen username for this kind of post. Will try to stay civilized.
Have you not read anything I posted earlier?
Why would we say no to an offer with 32 hours if there were no strings attached? (honestly, one good reason?)
Pay us double, and you will still have these disruptions. They tried, they failed, they were surprised and angry, they communicated false information, they do it all again the next day.
I will try to stay polite, but djeezes, think before you post this kind of stuff.

He has joined the debate and it was completely nex to the point and empty. (interview zevende dag)
His career has been posted before, and I stated he would probably be a good CEO for a private company, but the man has a total lack for rules and regulations or opinions that conflict with his.
His goals and his numbers are what matters, the rest is a detail.
Ah yes, these are the key skills to be a good CEO.

Regarding the illnesses, we are looking forward to seeing some proof or some procedures against these fake illnesses. Every absence has been justified and double checked.
We all had a good laugh at the remark about the ten atcos earning more than the prime minister.
Give us a payslip of ONE atco earning more and we will be very surprised, honestly.
The highest earning supervisors slash experts do not get to these amounts, so unless they are referring to the ex-controllers who are now management, we have no idea who they are talking about.
Lightning rod after lightning rod...
Do you have any clue what a prime minister earns?

And for the last time, WE ARE NOT STRIKING. We got used to 'no respect', your kind of comment is more rule than exception.
I hope you are a troll or somebody who didnt bother to read any of the previous 18 pages, because damn I honestly don't know what to say anymore.
Do you think we have an 'end dispute now button' lying around we are too stubborn to press?
One that magically creates 25 licensed atcos, cures all disease and undoes all violations?
Because we would be mashing that button like there is no tomorrow.
Unfortunatly, the only button at our disposal is a 'surrender your rights and just do whatever your boss wants' button. Not too keen to press that one, for obvious reasons.

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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by jan_olieslagers »

WE ARE NOT STRIKING
After much hesitation, and with a lot of reluctance: yes, this must be called a strike. In the broader sense of the word, that is.

Of course it is not a strike in the legal meaning of the word, no argument there.
But people are not taking up work as expected.
Of course the expectancies may be over-stretched, irrealistic, even illegal, you name it, no argument.
But people are not taking up work as expected.

I am sure there is a lot of politics involved, and the silence remains deafening. Some Wallonian politicians called for bringing in foreign civilian controllers - no chance. Some Flemish politicians called for bringing in the military - no chance. Those who are really in charge - the Belgian federal government - excel in silence.

But people are not taking up work as expected.

I have already accused the federal government of declining its responsability. I have more and more and very similar suspicions about the trade unions. If controller complaints were defendable, even partially, all unions would be in line to call for a proper legal formal strike, and to negotiate accordingly. Only one union - and not the most predominant one - has, to a certain degree, supported the present "actions". Smelly smelly smelly. If workers cannot get their rightful grieves supported by unions, why are there any trade unions anyway? If neither the unions nor the federal government are acting up to expectance, who can blame the controllers for following suit?

But people are not taking up work as expected.

Bread is bread and tomatoes are not onions and not taking up work as expected is striking.
But the worst blame is on the federal government. Again and again and again, Mr. Michel: WHERE ARE YOU? WITH YOUR JOBS JOBS JOBS? Your lack of action is killing jobs jobs jobs by the minute.

SR20
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 »

https://twitter.com/peeters_kris1/statu ... 3728396289

Looks like the 2 social conciliators were reporting to Kris Peeters today. Probably a reaction on his side very soon !

FLYAIR10
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by FLYAIR10 »

by Phoenixx » 23 Apr 2019, 14:28

…, because damn I honestly don't know what to say anymore.
Do you think we have an 'end dispute now button' lying around we are too stubborn to press?
One that magically creates 25 licensed atcos, cures all disease and undoes all violations?
Because we would be mashing that button like there is no tomorrow.
Unfortunatly, the only button at our disposal is a 'surrender your rights and just do whatever your boss wants' button. Not too keen to press that one, for obvious reasons.
Phoenixx et all, thanks for sharing your ideas and reporting on the feeling amongst (maybe a substantial part of) atco's. As is the case with other forum-members I read with much interest all the posts here.It allowed us to put a bit in prespective all the stuff we have been reading in the press,social media,etc..

But,unless I overlooked or misunderstood, something I' m missing from your side however is how the current difficult situation should be 'managed' in the short run. You countered a lot of critics and you described the situation 'as-is' .
Suppose next month you become the boss / decision maker in Skeyes, what would be your action plan for the coming 6-12 months? Or what would be needed besides 'more respect from management and CEO'? MVG did mention some possible solutions, which for outsiders also made sense. What would be your short-term plan? Are you able to shed some light on this?

Poiu
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Poiu »

jan_olieslagers wrote: 23 Apr 2019, 20:26
WE ARE NOT STRIKING
After much hesitation, and with a lot of reluctance: yes, this must be called a strike. In the broader sense of the word, that is.

Of course it is not a strike in the legal meaning of the word, no argument there.
But people are not taking up work as expected.
Not at all, Jan!
There is a lack of volunteers to come in and do extra work for extra money. Is that a strike? Certainly not, not even a work to the rule, I would say, just a lack of motivation to do extra work for extra money.

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

Thanks max, appreciate it.
Maybe it's mr. De Cuyper himself, I see quite a few similarities.

I don't want to convert users here to our Point of view, just share the other side, and like you say some put their hands over their ears and shout louder. Nice to see most users listening though, being critical and suspicious, but listening nontheless.
SR20 wrote: 23 Apr 2019, 20:41 https://twitter.com/peeters_kris1/statu ... 3728396289

Looks like the 2 social conciliators were reporting to Kris Peeters today. Probably a reaction on his side very soon !
Just to be clear, they are not expected to give their opinion or view on the contents of the negotiations, they are there to guard the form and keep the dialogue going. Very curious as well to what will come out of that feedback.
FLYAIR10 wrote: 23 Apr 2019, 20:58 But,unless I overlooked or misunderstood, something I' m missing from your side however is how the current difficult situation should be 'managed' in the short run. You countered a lot of critics and you described the situation 'as-is' .
Suppose next month you become the boss / decision maker in Skeyes, what would be your action plan for the coming 6-12 months? Or what would be needed besides 'more respect from management and CEO'? MVG did mention some possible solutions, which for outsiders also made sense. What would be your short-term plan? Are you able to shed some light on this?
I did actually share this, Page 15, third post from the bottom. If you want, I could go into more detail via pm.
jan_olieslagers wrote: 23 Apr 2019, 20:26 After much hesitation, and with a lot of reluctance: yes, this must be called a strike. In the broader sense of the word, that is.

Of course it is not a strike in the legal meaning of the word, no argument there.
But people are not taking up work as expected.
Of course the expectancies may be over-stretched, irrealistic, even illegal, you name it, no argument.
But people are not taking up work as expected.

I am sure there is a lot of politics involved, and the silence remains deafening. Some Wallonian politicians called for bringing in foreign civilian controllers - no chance. Some Flemish politicians called for bringing in the military - no chance. Those who are really in charge - the Belgian federal government - excel in silence.

But people are not taking up work as expected.

I have already accused the federal government of declining its responsability. I have more and more and very similar suspicions about the trade unions. If controller complaints were defendable, even partially, all unions would be in line to call for a proper legal formal strike, and to negotiate accordingly. Only one union - and not the most predominant one - has, to a certain degree, supported the present "actions". Smelly smelly smelly. If workers cannot get their rightful grieves supported by unions, why are there any trade unions anyway? If neither the unions nor the federal government are acting up to expectance, who can blame the controllers for following suit?

But people are not taking up work as expected.

Bread is bread and tomatoes are not onions and not taking up work as expected is striking.
But the worst blame is on the federal government. Again and again and again, Mr. Michel: WHERE ARE YOU? WITH YOUR JOBS JOBS JOBS? Your lack of action is killing jobs jobs jobs by the minute.
I am honestly a bit confused.
The expectations determine wether it's a strike or not, no matter what the expectations are?
If in a company with one boss and 10 employees (and enough work to keep 10 employees busy full time) 3 employees quit and they don't instantly have a replacement next week, are the remaining 7 on strike when they now come to work on Saturday as well (but not Sunday) because their boss holds the same goals and numbers? (Thereby needing 3 extra full times covered, 15 shifts, where he 'only' gets 7 extra) The expectations of this boss (or his customers) don't make this a strike in my opinion.
But you're saying we're striking 'by definition' -but not in reality- because we're already working 6/7 and refuse to do more on a 5/7 working agreement?

On the union part, you're actually incorrect.
The other two unions may not be shouting as loud as ACV, but they haven't signed anything management put on the table either (this time...). They see and hear what happened (and continues to happen) too and they get more than enough complaints from their own members...
The socialist union represents only a small group of Atcos after what they did in 2016 (signing behind everybodys back and against the intrest and will of the atcos and the other unions). And they almost did the same again. But they didn't!
Because the unions wanted to stand in one line this time.
Our grieves and problems are very much supported by the unions.
And lately, they are becoming one of the few to still care.

TLspotting
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by TLspotting »

The social conflict has already cost nearly €10M.

https://www.lecho.be/entreprises/aviati ... ns-d-euros
Hi. I'm Thibault Lapers. @ThibaultLapers & @TLspotting

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Social actions at air traffic control service skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by jan_olieslagers »

@Phoenixx: to make myself even clearer, I was only pondering the meaning of the word "strike". Far from me to give any judgement on your actions and decisions; and all my impressions are supportive of your case. Sure enough the management has kept on increasing their expectancies beyond all and any reason; I never said these expectancies were realistic, far less would I call them legitimate. But that is not for me to judge.

It is new to me that the socialist union did not sign the second management proposal - it had been in the news they did.

Like others, I would much like to thank you for polite and informative discussion.

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