The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

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Jetter
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The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

Post by Jetter » 28 Feb 2019, 06:53

The Dutch government bought a share of AFKL for E 700,- million and suddenly there is renewed interest in the fate of Sabana, according to De Volksrant the horror scenario of Belgium and Sabena is the main reason for the investment. AFKL CEO Ben Smith and The Dutch minister referred to Sabena as well. https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achter ... ~b133cbb9/

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Re: Trivia 2019 (miscellaneous news)

Post by Passenger » 28 Feb 2019, 08:52

Jetter wrote:
28 Feb 2019, 06:53
The Dutch government bought a share of AFKL for E 700,- million and suddenly there is renewed interest in the fate of Sabana, according to De Volksrant the horror scenario of Belgium and Sabena is the main reason for the investment. AFKL CEO Ben Smith and The Dutch minister referred to Sabena as well. https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achter ... ~b133cbb9/
De Volkskrant is about the only newspaper to bring up "Sabena" as main reason. All other Dutch press refer to the fear, within KLM and the Dutch government, that AF/KL will not keep its promises regarding the expension of KLM, at AMS, as a hub. The recent discussion about a possible dismissal of Pieters Elbers as KLM chief, was the final trigger for the Dutch government to act. By buying 14%, the Netherlands will equal France's power within AF/KL.

A comparison Sabena <-> KLM is ridiculous, given KLM's financial health compared to Sabena's spread cancer.

https://nos.nl/artikel/2273610-nederlan ... e-klm.html

https://nos.nl/artikel/2273737-nederlan ... e-klm.html

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2019/02/26/st ... m-a3655465

Jetter
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Re: Trivia 2019 (miscellaneous news)

Post by Jetter » 28 Feb 2019, 09:32

Passenger wrote:
28 Feb 2019, 08:52
De Volkskrant is about the only newspaper to bring up "Sabena" as main reason.
Allesbehalve ’Belgische toestanden’, dacht het kabinet /
All but 'Belgian situations', the government thought


https://www.noordhollandsdagblad.nl/cnt ... um=organic

Wat de overheid niet wil is dat Schiphol 'afzakt' naar het niveau van bijvoorbeeld Brussels Airport. Die luchthaven heeft veel minder passagiers (25,7 miljoen in 2018 versus 71,1 voor Schiphol) en komt niet eens in de top 20 van beste directe verbindingen voor.

What the government does not want is that Schiphol 'drops' to the level of, for example, Brussels Airport. This airport has far fewer passengers (25.7 million in 2018 versus 71.1 for Schiphol) and is not even in the top 20 best direct connections.


https://nos.nl/artikel/2273705-regering ... ijden.html

Minister Van Nieuwenhuizen benadrukte het belang van de luchtvaartmaatschappij voor Schiphol en voor Nederland. De luchthaven voegt 113.000 banen en 9 miljard euro toe aan de economie, becijferde zij. “Vanaf Schiphol kun je naar 300 bestemmingen vliegen, 70 procent daarvan wordt verzorgd door KLM.” Toen de Belgische maatschappij Sabena failliet ging, verdwenen veel vluchten van Brussel-Zaventem, hetzelfde gold voor Swissair en de luchthaven in ­Zürich, een schrikbeeld voor de ­minister.

Minister Van Nieuwenhuizen stressed the importance of the airline for Schiphol and for the Netherlands. The airport added 113,000 jobs and 9 billion euros to the economy, she calculated. "From Schiphol you can fly to 300 destinations, 70 percent of which is provided by KLM." When the Belgian company Sabena went bankrupt, many flights from Brussels-Zaventem, the same applied to Swissair and the airport in Zurich, disappeared a specter for the minister.

https://www.trouw.nl/home/waarom-de-sta ... ~aba50e0d/

Just a few examples. I read a lot about Sabana in the Dutch press the last month.

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Re: Trivia 2019 (miscellaneous news)

Post by sn26567 » 28 Feb 2019, 18:58

The move by the Dutch government was not well accepted by AFKL Group management, because it was done without consultation, almost in secret. But indeed the Dutch are right to want an equal say as the French to protect their interests, especially since KLM is providing most of the profits of the Group. They might have been more open about their intentions.
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Re: Trivia 2019 (miscellaneous news)

Post by sn26567 » 01 Mar 2019, 21:41

France says it will not increase its capital participation in Air France KLM, after the unexpected entrance of the Netherlands in the group’s capital.

Meanwhile, The Netherlands have increased their shareholding to 14%, the same level as the French State.
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Re: The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

Post by Ansett » 02 Mar 2019, 11:26

It was a sensible move from KL. They were right in doing so.
However, one thing they don't seem to understand or don't want to understand is that Schiphol is "vol", there is hardly any room for expansion at AMS, be is for KL or other airlines.
Consequently, growth in the AF-KL Group will mainly, if not only come from AF at CDG. Unless KL starts (is authorized) to expand at CDG !!! (which I doubt).

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Re: The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

Post by jan_olieslagers » 02 Mar 2019, 11:46

It was a sensible move from KL.
It was a sensible move (witness the annoyance in Paris!) but not by KL. Is there in fact any separate KL identity left? I believe it to have gone 100% into AFKL?

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Re: The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

Post by convair » 02 Mar 2019, 19:29

I think the NL govt made the right move in order to gain more say in the group.
Btw, maybe the KLM/Sabena merger would have been better both for SN and BRU.
At the time, there was a lot of reluctance, for "cultural" reasons, and not only on the French-speaking side.

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Re: The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

Post by jan_olieslagers » 02 Mar 2019, 19:43

maybe the KLM/Sabena merger would have been better both for SN and BRU.
And perhaps even for KLM and AMS, too.

But I am curious who opposed the KL/SN merger at the time, except, obviously, "la Belgique à papa".

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Re: The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

Post by Established02 » 02 Mar 2019, 20:12

jan_olieslagers wrote:
02 Mar 2019, 19:43
But I am curious who opposed the KL/SN merger at the time...".
C'était monsieur Guy Spitaels (PS).

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/1991/09/21/ta ... 75-a890019

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Re: The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

Post by Acid-drop » 03 Mar 2019, 10:14

Cargo in AMS will be interesting.
The authoriry allowing the slots and the quota is now having stakes in one of the beneficiary.
Opening all doors for court actions I imagine
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

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Re: The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

Post by sn26567 » 03 Mar 2019, 11:06

Acid-drop wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 10:14
Cargo in AMS will be interesting.
The authoriry allowing the slots and the quota is now having stakes in one of the beneficiary.
Opening all doors for court actions I imagine
I didn't think of that, but indeed, there is a serious conflict of interest there.
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Re: The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

Post by jan_olieslagers » 03 Mar 2019, 11:15

I don't see the point: why would it be an issue for cargo but not for pax traffic? And why would it be an issue in Amsterdam but not in Paris?

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Re: The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

Post by sn26567 » 03 Mar 2019, 11:44

jan_olieslagers wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 11:15
I don't see the point: why would it be an issue for cargo but not for pax traffic? And why would it be an issue in Amsterdam but not in Paris?
AMS is slot-constrained, not Paris CDG. And the first affected flights in AMS are cargo flights.
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Re: The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

Post by jan_olieslagers » 03 Mar 2019, 13:48

Thanks, André, but, for as far as I can see, that will not make a difference if ever anyone goes to court. There ARE precedents of slots being alotted by an authority that has a degree of interest in one or more competing airlines, and none has ever protested (to my knowledge). So it must have become accepted practice by now. It seems far too late to cry about "conflict of interest" now, however justified the cry might be.

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Re: The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

Post by convair » 03 Mar 2019, 14:28

jan_olieslagers wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 13:48
Thanks, André, but, for as far as I can see, that will not make a difference if ever anyone goes to court. There ARE precedents of slots being alotted by an authority that has a degree of interest in one or more competing airlines, and none has ever protested (to my knowledge). So it must have become accepted practice by now. It seems far too late to cry about "conflict of interest" now, however justified the cry might be.
Maybe no one felt prejudiced so far under no slot-constraint situations.

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Re: The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

Post by Passenger » 03 Mar 2019, 19:38

Article on ESB = a Dutch economical magazine and website:
https://esb.nu/blog/20050097/een-stap-t ... luchtvaart
(too in-depth for a summary, but they authors dislike the Dutch state interference in a deregulated economy)

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Re: The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

Post by jan_olieslagers » 03 Mar 2019, 19:54

Thanks for the link! But the article does not leave a deep impression on me... The author obviously thinks along the "Thatcher"-line, ok, to each their own. But where then is the suggestion that the French government should cease to be a shareholder of AFKL? Why is it wrong for the Dutch government to do what the French government has been doing for years if not for decades?

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Re: The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

Post by Acid-drop » 03 Mar 2019, 22:47

convair wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 14:28
jan_olieslagers wrote:
03 Mar 2019, 13:48
Thanks, André, but, for as far as I can see, that will not make a difference if ever anyone goes to court. There ARE precedents of slots being alotted by an authority that has a degree of interest in one or more competing airlines, and none has ever protested (to my knowledge). So it must have become accepted practice by now. It seems far too late to cry about "conflict of interest" now, however justified the cry might be.
Maybe no one felt prejudiced so far under no slot-constraint situations.
There was a lot of discussions actually.
Remember the russian ultimatum for abc (before they announced the move to LGG)
And very lately, the fight of Kalitta.
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... -ams-slots

Cargo in AMS is a mess and it only got foggier.
My messages reflect my personal opinion which may be different than yours. I beleive a forum is made to create a debate so I encourage people to express themselves, the way they want, with the ideas they want. I expect the same understanding in return.

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Re: The Netherlands buy a 12.8% share in Air France-KLM Group

Post by BrightCedars » 04 Mar 2019, 08:40

I can only support the Dutch government's will to have an equal share and say in the group. At the end of the day it is votes and seats that matter in the decision making process and this will reinforce their voice.

Honestly it's quite funny when you see that the French are arguing that AF saved KL. I don't think the situation was that critical for KL and that AF was the only white horse rider at the time.

Isn't KLM also celebrating a 100 years of flights this year? What an achievement. Wonder if they'll do retro liveries à la BA, very classy. Here's hoping to see some Sabena colors on some SN metal in a few years, to mark 100 years of Belgian civil aviation at least.

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