Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

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Ansett
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Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by Ansett » 24 Sep 2018, 22:15

I'm not sure this topic will generate a lot of comments, but let's see...

The question we have probably asked already, but is worth asking again, is : why don't Belgian airlines succeed to be successful or at least to survive ?
Lack of competent management ?
Lack of competent shareholders ?
Lack of will of the politicians to create an environment favorable to develop aviation, although everybody knows or should know that airlines create a lot of direct and indirect jobs (see the number of direct and indirect jobs lost when Sabena disappeared) ?
Lack of what ?

Sai
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by Sai » 25 Sep 2018, 14:43

Flying Group, Jetairfly/TUI fly Belgium, both very profitable and successful...

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sn26567
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by sn26567 » 25 Sep 2018, 15:08

Sai wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 14:43
Flying Group, Jetairfly/TUI fly Belgium, both very profitable and successful...
Flying Group is not a scheduled airline, and TUIfly Belgium is actually German.

SN Brussels Airlines was actually Belgian at the start, and it was rather successful at the beginning, but the financial crisis of 2008 put a stop on its success, and only the strongest could survive at that time, hence the involvement of Lufthansa which took 45% against an injection of cash. The rest is history...
André
ex Sabena #26567

Sai
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by Sai » 25 Sep 2018, 15:35

sn26567 wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 15:08
Sai wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 14:43
Flying Group, Jetairfly/TUI fly Belgium, both very profitable and successful...
Flying Group is not a scheduled airline, and TUIfly Belgium is actually German.
I can understand your point of view, but don't completely agree...If you consider it from the point of view of shareholders there hasn't been a Belgian airline for years...
Would you say Austrian airlines or Swiss is German? Or would you say Air Belgium is Chinese? (or another European country that is a main shareholder?)

TUI fly Belgium is a Belgian N.V./S.A., has a Belgian AOC and Belgian OO-registered aircraft, hence I consider it as a Belgian airline...
and for the same reasons I consider Air Belgium as a Belgian airline too
But as I said, it depends on your point of view 8-)

737MAX
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by 737MAX » 25 Sep 2018, 18:46

sn26567 wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 15:08
Sai wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 14:43
Flying Group, Jetairfly/TUI fly Belgium, both very profitable and successful...
Flying Group is not a scheduled airline, and TUIfly Belgium is actually German.
What a joke. TUIfly BELGIUM is BELGIAN. It’s part of a group, yes, but management is under complete belgian control. The group was german but became more english than german, between... something you probably missed a couple of years ago.... If TUIFly BELGIUM hadn’t been a successful airline, it would have been for sale a long time ago. Like Corsair that nobody wants to buy...

You seem to spread fake news/info all over the place on this website, sometimes...

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sn26567
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by sn26567 » 25 Sep 2018, 18:55

737MAX wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 18:46

You seem to spread fake news/info all over the place on this website, sometimes...
If Belgian company Jetair had been successful all the way, it would not have been sold to German TUI. Admittedly, TUIfly Belgium (or should we say TUIfly Benelux now?) has a certain degree of independence within the TUI group, but the final say remains in the hands of the owner, i.e. TUI.
André
ex Sabena #26567

737MAX
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by 737MAX » 25 Sep 2018, 19:54

sn26567 wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 18:55
737MAX wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 18:46

You seem to spread fake news/info all over the place on this website, sometimes...
If Belgian company Jetair had been successful all the way, it would not have been sold to German TUI. Admittedly, TUIfly Belgium (or should we say TUIfly Benelux now?) has a certain degree of independence within the TUI group, but the final say remains in the hands of the owner, i.e. TUI.
See, another « I think I know so I post but I actually don’t know » useless post of this forum.

Jetair was and is still profitable, under another common name with all the airlines and travel agencies of the group. The reason for that is very simple; you can’t be efficient all by yourself in a country that is as small as Belgium. Jetair alone wouldn’t have been able to have the fleet it has now. Modern, efficient, young but way too expensive if bought all by yourself. Do I need to give you an example of another belgian airline that understood that too...?

You obviously don’t have a clue of which decisions are made by TUI BE or not, nor which power they have to do what they want to do alone. You also don’t know what the TUI group is and how it works, apparently. No need to post more crap unless you look for correct information, instead of once again going deeper into your fake info/news.

Aviation24.be seems to be proud to be quoted by the Sun of some French press for articles that are so obvious (oh no airliners cannot do some aerobatics in a typhoon, really!), but you should only be proud if you post accurate info (also no « the runway excursion was caused by ice and rain » with +8°C in Turkey stuff). And frankly, it’s not the case at all at this time... not, at all.

sean1982
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by sean1982 » 25 Sep 2018, 20:15

737MAX wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 19:54
sn26567 wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 18:55
737MAX wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 18:46

You seem to spread fake news/info all over the place on this website, sometimes...
If Belgian company Jetair had been successful all the way, it would not have been sold to German TUI. Admittedly, TUIfly Belgium (or should we say TUIfly Benelux now?) has a certain degree of independence within the TUI group, but the final say remains in the hands of the owner, i.e. TUI.
See, another « I think I know so I post but I actually don’t know » useless post of this forum.

Jetair was and is still profitable, under another common name with all the airlines and travel agencies of the group. The reason for that is very simple; you can’t be efficient all by yourself in a country that is as small as Belgium. Jetair alone wouldn’t have been able to have the fleet it has now. Modern, efficient, young but way too expensive if bought all by yourself. Do I need to give you an example of another belgian airline that understood that too...?

You obviously don’t have a clue of which decisions are made by TUI BE or not, nor which power they have to do what they want to do alone. You also don’t know what the TUI group is and how it works, apparently. No need to post more crap unless you look for correct information, instead of once again going deeper into your fake info/news.

Aviation24.be seems to be proud to be quoted by the Sun of some French press for articles that are so obvious (oh no airliners cannot do some aerobatics in a typhoon, really!), but you should only be proud if you post accurate info (also no « the runway excursion was caused by ice and rain » with +8°C in Turkey stuff). And frankly, it’s not the case at all at this time... not, at all.
Hear hear

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by jan_olieslagers » 25 Sep 2018, 20:20

Where is the "like" button??? Well said, @737MAX!

And indeed, the true value of forums is in the exchange of facts, or at least of well-supported rumours. Of course everybody are entitled to their very own opinions and tastes and dreams and phantasms, but there are plenty of other channels for all that vapour.

Passenger
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by Passenger » 25 Sep 2018, 20:20

Ansett wrote:
24 Sep 2018, 22:15
I'm not sure this topic will generate a lot of comments, but let's see...

The question we have probably asked already, but is worth asking again, is : why don't Belgian airlines succeed to be successful or at least to survive ?
Lack of competent management ?
Lack of competent shareholders ?
Lack of will of the politicians to create an environment favorable to develop aviation, although everybody knows or should know that airlines create a lot of direct and indirect jobs (see the number of direct and indirect jobs lost when Sabena disappeared) ?
Lack of what ?
You have started this topic, so maybe you can clarify what you mean by "a Belgian airline"?

Is a Belgian AOC / OO-reg enough? Ownership: how much "Belgian" must it be? And if you want that it's 51%, then how "Belgian" is an airline with 49% official foreign ownership and non-established ownership in the 51%?

Perhaps we can use the Airfleets.net reference page for "Belgium"?
https://www.airfleets.net/recherche/lis ... elgium.htm

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sn26567
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by sn26567 » 25 Sep 2018, 20:24

737MAX wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 19:54
See, another « I think I know so I post but I actually don’t know » useless post of this forum.
We are always happy to learn, that's what a forum is about. But no need to insult people to teach them what's right or wrong: this is counterproductive.
André
ex Sabena #26567

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by jan_olieslagers » 25 Sep 2018, 20:26

A good point, @Passenger. The one thing that is certainly not relevant is national registry - if we see even good old Aeroflot flying VH- airliners today, and Alitalia and other more on EI-

And yes indeed, Belgium is a small country, yes, and smallish too, on top.

Passenger
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by Passenger » 25 Sep 2018, 21:01

jan_olieslagers wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 20:20
Where is the "like" button??? Well said, @737MAX! And indeed, the true value of forums is in the exchange of facts, or at least of well-supported rumours. Of course everybody are entitled to their very own opinions and tastes and dreams and phantasms, but there are plenty of other channels for all that vapour.
There is no need for a "like button" for this ugly stuff:
737MAX wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 19:54
You obviously don’t have a clue of which decisions are made by TUI BE or not, nor which power they have to do what they want to do alone. You also don’t know what the TUI group is and how it works, apparently. No need to post more crap unless you look for correct information, instead of once again going deeper into your fake info/news.

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Conti764
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by Conti764 » 25 Sep 2018, 21:22

jan_olieslagers wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 20:20
Where is the "like" button??? Well said, @737MAX!

And indeed, the true value of forums is in the exchange of facts, or at least of well-supported rumours. Of course everybody are entitled to their very own opinions and tastes and dreams and phantasms, but there are plenty of other channels for all that vapour.
Really? Some weeks ago you were nagging about a post of mine towards Passenger and now you are supporting an offensive and borderline insulting post? Way to go...

On topic, I believe a Belgian airline within its segment can be succesful but not on its own... A good example is indeed Tuifly Belgium within the Tui Group, a bad example is SN within the LH Group... The first received and continues receiving efficient, new equipment and as such is allowed by its parenting company to florish and grow. The latter is stepmotherly treated by its parent group, is not allowed to grow and is set to disappear.

737MAX
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by 737MAX » 25 Sep 2018, 21:51

There is nothing insulting in my post.

All it meant is simple; there is no room for wrong information. Everyone is welcome to have an opinion, we are all allowed to say if we agree or not; but false information is not OK. Whether it comes from « moderators » or a new joiner makes no difference.

@Passenger; if my post is ugly to you; thank you. I take it as a compliment. I wonder how ugly your posts are towards all those who ask for a better life through the only way they have... i.e. the way you hate and the way you’ll hopefully never need to use.

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sn26567
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by sn26567 » 25 Sep 2018, 21:58

737MAX wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 21:51
There is nothing insulting in my post.

All it meant is simple; there is no room for wrong information. Everyone is welcome to have an opinion, we are all allowed to say if we agree or not; but false information is not OK. Whether it comes from « moderators » or a new joiner makes no difference.
If something is wrong in my post, please let me know what, for the benefit of all our readers, starting with me. That would be a positive and constructive attitude.

A first question that comes to mind: do we still speak about TUI fly Belgium, or has it become TUI fly Benelux now?
André
ex Sabena #26567

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Conti764
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by Conti764 » 25 Sep 2018, 22:30

Isn't it just equipment that can be deployed elsewhere within the Tuifly group? So no Tuifly Benelux, Just Tuifly Belgium and Tuifly Holland...?

737MAX
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by 737MAX » 26 Sep 2018, 07:40

Conti764 wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 22:30
Isn't it just equipment that can be deployed elsewhere within the Tuifly group? So no Tuifly Benelux, Just Tuifly Belgium and Tuifly Holland...?
There is a cluster going on between TUI BE and TUI NL. We can talk about TUI Benelux indeed, but the two AOC’s will remain; so no major difference will be seen in the airlines. The biggest change is that crews could fly for both airlines (a belgian crew could fly on a PH- aircraft and vice versa).

Ansett
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by Ansett » 26 Sep 2018, 12:55

Passenger wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 20:20
Ansett wrote:
24 Sep 2018, 22:15
I'm not sure this topic will generate a lot of comments, but let's see...

The question we have probably asked already, but is worth asking again, is : why don't Belgian airlines succeed to be successful or at least to survive ?
Lack of competent management ?
Lack of competent shareholders ?
Lack of will of the politicians to create an environment favorable to develop aviation, although everybody knows or should know that airlines create a lot of direct and indirect jobs (see the number of direct and indirect jobs lost when Sabena disappeared) ?
Lack of what ?
You have started this topic, so maybe you can clarify what you mean by "a Belgian airline"?

Is a Belgian AOC / OO-reg enough? Ownership: how much "Belgian" must it be? And if you want that it's 51%, then how "Belgian" is an airline with 49% official foreign ownership and non-established ownership in the 51%?

Perhaps we can use the Airfleets.net reference page for "Belgium"?
https://www.airfleets.net/recherche/lis ... elgium.htm
I'm not an expert and certainly not someone who claims to be one or claims to know everything better. so, I'll give you, as a start, a (simplistic) answer and example : for me SN Brussels Airlines, when it was set up, was a Belgian airline. So, correct me if I wrong, Belgian AOC and Belgian ownership.

The answer to the question in this topic is, consequently, very likely to be : no (on the basis of my "simplistic" :oops: ? example). Partial foreign ownership is unavoidable, unless you operate in a very different economic, social and political environment (UAE, for instance).

I'm looking forward to your reaction.

Poiu
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Re: Can Belgian airlines be successful ?

Post by Poiu » 26 Sep 2018, 16:17

sn26567 wrote:
25 Sep 2018, 15:08

SN Brussels Airlines was actually Belgian at the start, and it was rather successful at the beginning, but the financial crisis of 2008 put a stop on its success
You have a short memory, Andre!
SNBA (DAT) “bought” a lot of Sabena assets for 1€ the day before the bankruptcy, eg LHR slots and some profitable fuel hedging contracts, who were later sold to stay alive.
A bridge loan for Sabena was transferred to SNBA and never paid back (Alitalia scenario)
The aircrew pension fund was used to fill to pockets of SNBA
....

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