Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

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Ansett
Posts: 263
Joined: 13 Apr 2016, 19:12

Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Ansett » 12 Aug 2018, 13:51

Passenger wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 18:52
You can't blame Ryanair for not respecting, on 6th August, a court verdict that is issued 3 days later. The decision to relocate pilots to Eindhoven and Amsterdam was taken before the court verdict.

If you read the verdict as a whole, it's clear that Ryanair's lawyers didn't prepare their thing decently. Perhaps a reflection of O'Leary's arrogance and overconfidence?

1. The legal ground to forbit or limit a strike is set in Article G of the European Social Manifesto. I haven't read that, but the Judge has done if for me. In brief: "...Dat is slechts het geval indien de beperkingen aan het recht op collectieve acties maatschappelijk gezien dringend noodzakelijk zijn..." Ryanair fails to proof this, the Judge said, by not going to court in other countries were strikes with more impact were announced: "...Het gaat om een 24-uursstaking die samenvalt met stakingen elders in Europa, die een veel grotere impact hebben dan de onderhavige staking en waartegen door Ryanair niet wordt opgetreden..."

2. Ryanair also failed to proof that a strike during the weekend has more severe consequences then a strike on a week day: "...Daarnaast heeft Ryanair niet inzichtelijk weten te maken waarom een staking in het weekend tot grotere schade zou leiden dan een stakingsactie op doordeweekse dagen en waarom dus specifiek een staking in de weekenden moet worden verboden. In de tussen partijen gevoerde correspondentie is door Ryanair pas op het allerlaatste moment onderscheid gemaakt tussen stakingen in het weekend en doordeweeks..."

- - -

I dislike the judgement. Not because the trade unions have "won", but because once again the passengers' rights are ignored. But then: when no one brings passengers rights up, a judge can't rule as such in a non in-depth court case.
You seem to forget that more often than the unions or a judge, Ryanair ignores passengers rights. You statement is extremely biased.

Passengers have the right to choose the airline they fly with. If despite the long history of disrespect of passengers rights by Ryanair, passengers still continue to choose for this airline, they have to accept the consequences of their right to choose and of their choice.

DIBO
Posts: 427
Joined: 28 Mar 2009, 14:54

Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by DIBO » 12 Aug 2018, 22:36

Passenger wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 18:52
You can't blame Ryanair for not respecting, on 6th August, a court verdict that is issued 3 days later. The decision to relocate pilots to Eindhoven and Amsterdam was taken before the court verdict.
Quite right, these decisions were taken beforehand.
dutch court ruling wrote:1.8.... Die vrees acht de voorzieningenrechter niet geheel ongegrond, ondanks de mededelingen ter zitting van de advocaat van Ryanair dat daarvan ook morgen geen sprake van zou zijn. Dit risico kan evenwel worden ondervangen door een daarbij aan Ryanair te stellen voorwaarde dat zij zich van stakingsbrekende acties zal onthouden
but dispite the pledges made before a court of law by Lyanair on the 9th !!! of August, strike-breaking actions on the 10th were taken.
Lyanair should be held in contempt of the court.

Passenger
Posts: 5560
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Passenger » 13 Aug 2018, 13:21

First mistake from Ryanair's lawyers: when the judge said it was strange that Ryanair went only to court in the Netherlands, they had no explanation for that. Not even a lazy excuse. So it's quite obvious that the Dutch judge was pissed off: Ryanair suggested that the Dutch judge would rule against the strike anyway.

The second mistake is that Ryanair's lawyers used the wrong arguments: "going a strike on a weekend causes more damage then a strike on a weekday". One could try to defend this in a pub on a Saturday night. But in court?

The third mistake is that Ryanair's lawyers were badly prepared. When the judge said that the strike can only be limited according to Article G from the European Social Charter, they had no reply. The Dutch Judge said he can only prohibit or limit a strike when this is "maatschappelijk gezien dringend noodzakelijk". The judge referred to Article G, which is this:
1. The rights and principles set forth in Part I when effectively realised, and their effective exercise as provided for in Part II, shall not be subject to European Social Charter any restrictions or limitations not specified in those parts, except such as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others or for the protection of public interest, national security, public health, or morals.
2. The restrictions permitted under this Charter to the rights and obligations set forth herein shall not be applied for any purpose other than that for which they have been prescribed.
There was one argument that Ryanair's lawyers should have used there: public interest: the right of passengers to be flown to their destination. There is even specified European legislation for this right.

The fourth and biggest mistake from Ryanair's lawyers is that they accepted the trade unions' statement about the so called "stakingsbrekende acties". From the verdict: "...De bezwaren van VNV tegen dergelijke aankondigingen zijn gegrond op de vrees dat Ryanair in dat geval stakingsbrekende acties kan ondernemen. Die vrees acht de voorzieningenrechter niet geheel ongegrond, ondanks de mededelingen ter zitting van de advocaat van Ryanair dat daarvan ook morgen geen sprake van zou zijn. Dit risico kan evenwel worden ondervangen door een daarbij aan Ryanair te stellen voorwaarde dat zij zich van stakingsbrekende acties zal onthouden; meer in het bijzonder dat Ryanair, zoals zij al heeft aangeboden, vluchten ingeval van tijdig aangekondigde stakingen zal annuleren en dus niet piloten van elders zal inzetten..."

The above is a very subjective statement from a judge. To amend rosters and to use crew from outside is not "braking the strike": that is limit the damage. To use crew from outside is to make it possible that that those who are not on strike, can do their job. Actually, it's even allowed in the European Social Charter: "to the protection of the rights and freedoms ot others".

People have the right to strike, but people who don't want to strike have the right to work.

Ansett
Posts: 263
Joined: 13 Apr 2016, 19:12

Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Ansett » 13 Aug 2018, 16:01

I don't think the judge's statement is subjective. It's common sense. What is the point to strike, if the strike can be broken, especially in this case, by sending fake free-lance pilots who probably could not refuse the "assignment".

However, taking into account your explanations in your previous post, I suggest you offer your services to Ryanair, so that they don't make the mistakes anymore, which you would have helped them to prevent.

Passenger
Posts: 5560
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Passenger » 24 Aug 2018, 09:50

Consumer organization Test-Aankoop/Test-Achats today launched their court case for 50 test cases:

NL:
https://www.test-aankoop.be/action/pers ... otdossiers
FR:
https://www.test-achats.be/action/espac ... otdossiers

Passenger
Posts: 5560
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Passenger » 27 Aug 2018, 15:40

Another Dutch court verdict against Ryanair: with the ongoing "CAO" collective negociations, Dutch trade union VNV has the right to appoint the representatives they want, even when they are KLM crew:

https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inzie ... :2018:7350

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sn26567
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by sn26567 » 30 Aug 2018, 21:37

When Ryanair tries, wrongly, to accuse Brussels Airlines to justify its refusal to compensate

Ryanair still refuses to compensate passengers for cancelled flights following the July 25-26 and August 10 strikes.

1350 people whose flights were cancelled by Ryanair after the summer strikes registered their complaint with the consumer association Test-Achats/Aankoop (TA), which on Friday introduced the first 50 cases before the lower courts in Zaventem and Charleroi.

The consumer association is confident about the outcome and hopes to get the Irish company to reverse its position.

Yes, Ryanair is still refusing to compensate passengers for flights cancelled following the July 25 and 26 and August 10 strikes (a fixed compensation in case of cancellation less than fourteen days before departure, in addition to the reimbursement of the ticket or an alternative proposal).

In a statement sent on Monday, the company invokes exceptional circumstances and considers that "under EU261 law, no compensation is payable to customers when the delay/cancellation is beyond the control of the airline. If these strikes would have been under the control of Ryanair, there would have been no cancellations."

But the low-cost company goes further and tries to show in its statement that it is not the only one to react as follows: "TA should explain why Brussels Airlines was not required to pay EU261 compensation after the strike of its pilots in May 2018, and why TA did not take any legal action against Brussels Airlines. In the same way, in Germany, Lufthansa was not obliged to pay indemnities EU261 for the 17 days of strikes by its pilots and crew members, and we note that TA has not started any action with the Belgian courts against Lufthansa."

Except that ... it's wrong. While it is true that TA did not take action against Brussels Airlines, it is simply because they have fulfilled their obligations.

"When it's a partner company that goes on strike, that's not our responsibility, but when it's our staff who goes on strike, we pay these indemnities, which has cost us a lot," says Wencke Lemmes-Pireaux, spokeswoman for Brussels Airlines, "a total of 10 million for all the days of the strike, which includes compensation but also refunds of tickets or alternative flights on other airlines".

The spokesperson of Brussels Airlines acknowledges however that the agreement on these compensations is recent. The legislation on the subject has changed since April 2018 and the publication of a judgment of the Court of Justice of the European Union, whose conclusion is very clear: "A wildcat strike of aircrew following the surprise announcement of a restructuration does not constitute an "extraordinary circumstance" allowing the airline to be released from its obligation of compensation in the event of cancellation or long delay of a flight".

The court ruled on the case of the German airline TUIfly, where a restructuring of the company was announced by surprise to its staff on September 30, 2016, because of a restructuring of the company. An announcement that angered employees, aircrew deciding to go on sick leave between October 1 and October 10, 2016. The rate of absent pilots had reached 62% and the strike had caused many delays and cancellations. Believing that these were "extraordinary circumstances", TUIfly had, like Ryanair, refused to pay passengers their legal allowances. But the European judges had considered that restructuring and reorganization "are part of the normal business management measures" and that "the airlines can be, in an normal way, confronted, in the exercise of their activity, with disagreements, conflicts, with the members of their staff or with some of them."

As for Lufthansa, TA did not bring an action in court simply because the association had not received enough complaints about that (the strike concerned mainly Germany). That said, if it is true that they were also reluctant to pay these allowances, the company will also have to change its tune: on July 18, 2018, given this new jurisprudence, the company, whose pilots had gone on strike in 2016 was sentenced by the Luxembourg court to pay compensation to two passengers who had requested it. In short, TA is confident about the outcome of the first cases against the Irish company and "Ryanair will be approached again so that it revises its position. In case of persistent refusal, other cases will be brought to justice so that every passenger is compensated ".

(after Belga and RTBF)
André
ex Sabena #26567

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