Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

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Boeing767copilot
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Boeing767copilot » 09 Aug 2018, 21:01

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The best news for the customers in The Netherlands.

737MAX
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by 737MAX » 09 Aug 2018, 21:38

Passenger wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 20:39
KriVa wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 19:55
Dear Passenger, you seem very good at ignoring this question again and again. Fortunately, I’m very good at asking the question again and again: what is the alternative you propose?
I have already answered your question several times. But unfortunately, you don't read my answer. Just a few examples I gave: load fuel for a possible divertion to Cancun. Stop selling scratch lotery tickets on all flights. Go to a Belgian labour court and ask that the court rules that your labour contract is subject to Belgian labour legislation. Go to Dublin and bully O'Leary personally, in stead of bullying the passengers.

So let me ask you now the same question again - question you have not answered yet. Who will refund the costs that passengers now have to make?

And another question: some collegues have organized a travel package with FR flights. Travel legislation now forces them to buy other flights for the passengers. Have you any idea how much 5 last minutes tickets to Venice cost for a Friday evening? Have you any idea how that travel agent feels, knowing that no one will reimburse those extremely expensive tickets?
I think KriVa is asking for real alternatives. Not pathetic "how can I quickly get fired" ideas...

Ansett
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Ansett » 09 Aug 2018, 23:40

Passenger wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 20:39
KriVa wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 19:55
Dear Passenger, you seem very good at ignoring this question again and again. Fortunately, I’m very good at asking the question again and again: what is the alternative you propose?
I have already answered your question several times. But unfortunately, you don't read my answer. Just a few examples I gave: load fuel for a possible divertion to Cancun. Stop selling scratch lotery tickets on all flights. Go to a Belgian labour court and ask that the court rules that your labour contract is subject to Belgian labour legislation. Go to Dublin and bully O'Leary personally, in stead of bullying the passengers.

So let me ask you now the same question again - question you have not answered yet. Who will refund the costs that passengers now have to make?

And another question: some collegues have organized a travel package with FR flights. Travel legislation now forces them to buy other flights for the passengers. Have you any idea how much 5 last minutes tickets to Venice cost for a Friday evening? Have you any idea how that travel agent feels, knowing that no one will reimburse those extremely expensive tickets?
Yes, most of us have a precise idea of the the cost of most last minute tickets. If you work in the travel/tourism sector and you book your clients on a rogue airline, you must accept the consequences.

And I don't feel sorry for passengers who booked themselves on this same rogue airline. Either they did not know the risks they were taking, which is difficult to believe, given the large and long-time coverage in the media, or they pretended not to know, well now they know. And those who did it in full knowledge of the airline's history, will have to accept the consequences of their gambling.

If you know that the butcher on the corner regularly sells rotten meat and you still go and buy meat from him, expect to get ill some day.

Ansett
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Ansett » 10 Aug 2018, 00:00

Boeing767copilot wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 21:01
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Wait and see.

https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2018/08/09/pi ... d-a1612623

Dutch newspaper NRC also asks the question how FR will operate the flights, since pilots are determined to strike. The airline could not be reached for comments Thursday evening.

sean1982
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by sean1982 » 10 Aug 2018, 08:03

KriVa wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 19:55
Dear Passenger, you seem very good at ignoring this question again and again. Fortunately, I’m very good at asking the question again and again: what is the alternative you propose?
Im still waiting for an answer to my question too, being anti everything is a lot easier then coming up with answers that do not border on ridiculousness it seems
sean1982 wrote:
06 Aug 2018, 06:09
Passenger wrote:
06 Aug 2018, 00:25

The lady asked that the Dutch court would declare itself competent/qualified, and the Dutch court did. Then the lady demanded 34.561 €, and the court has condemned Ryanair to pay 34.561 € (plus 5.761 € costs). Maybe that's "a few breadcrumbs" for you, but I think that she will disagree with you.
She probably would, how does that benefit a crew member in CRL who joined 1 month ago, broke his foot and as a consequence doesnt have income?

Passenger
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Passenger » 10 Aug 2018, 09:01

It's good to see that not all Ryanair pilots support the trade unions madness.

The first FR flights out of Eindhoven this morning are enroute, apparently thanks to Belgian pilots:
https://www.ed.nl/airport/pilotenstakin ... ~abb7876c/

737MAX
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by 737MAX » 10 Aug 2018, 09:44

Passenger wrote:
10 Aug 2018, 09:01
It's good to see that not all Ryanair pilots support the trade unions madness.

The first FR flights out of Eindhoven this morning are enroute, apparently thanks to Belgian pilots:
https://www.ed.nl/airport/pilotenstakin ... ~abb7876c/
Keep on dreaming. These are most probably pilots that cannot be in the union due to their type of contract...

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sn26567
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by sn26567 » 10 Aug 2018, 10:30

Indeed. It looks like the EIN flights are operated either with pilots from foreign bases or with self-employed pilots, half of them Belgian. That will for sure create tensions among pilots.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Passenger
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Passenger » 10 Aug 2018, 10:34

sean1982 wrote:
10 Aug 2018, 08:03
She probably would, how does that benefit a crew member in CRL who joined 1 month ago, broke his foot and as a consequence doesnt have income?
Fourth time I answer this question:

that CRL-based crew member has to file a court case with the Charleroi Labour Tribunal (Arbeidsrechtbank), and ask for application of EU Judgement C-168/16 (14th Sept 2017, known as “Sandra Nogueira vs Crewlink Ireland”). The CRL-based crew member should then ask that the Charleroi Tribunal de travail annuls the Crewlink clausule that excludes a basic salary in case of sickness/temporary invalidity. And the CRL-based crew member should ask that the Charleroi Tribunal de travail states that Belgian labour legislation applies for Belgium-based crew.

For the fourth time: this is not difficult and it's not surrealism. Actually it's a piece of cake for trade union lawyers. Just read 3.3 in this Dutch appeal court verdict from last month: a Polish FR customer service supervisor, based at Eindhoven, has won such a court case against Ryanair, based upon the above EU Judgement:
https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inzie ... :2018:2826

sean1982
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by sean1982 » 10 Aug 2018, 10:52

Passenger wrote:
10 Aug 2018, 10:34
sean1982 wrote:
10 Aug 2018, 08:03
She probably would, how does that benefit a crew member in CRL who joined 1 month ago, broke his foot and as a consequence doesnt have income?
Fourth time I answer this question:

that CRL-based crew member has to file a court case with the Charleroi Labour Tribunal (Arbeidsrechtbank), and ask for application of EU Judgement C-168/16 (14th Sept 2017, known as “Sandra Nogueira vs Crewlink Ireland”). The CRL-based crew member should then ask that the Charleroi Tribunal de travail annuls the Crewlink clausule that excludes a basic salary in case of sickness/temporary invalidity. And the CRL-based crew member should ask that the Charleroi Tribunal de travail states that Belgian labour legislation applies for Belgium-based crew.

For the fourth time: this is not difficult and it's not surrealism. Actually it's a piece of cake for trade union lawyers. Just read 3.3 in this Dutch appeal court verdict from last month: a Polish FR customer service supervisor, based at Eindhoven, has won such a court case against Ryanair, based upon the above EU Judgement:
https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inzie ... :2018:2826
So you are suggesting that all employees are launching a court case paid by whom? Themselves? If they cant even sustain themselves? Secondly, if they would (all of them) then Ryanair would suspend them .... the result would be the same as a strike, only longer with no end date. You’re even more disconnected from reality than I thought.

Passenger
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Passenger » 10 Aug 2018, 11:06

sean1982 wrote:
10 Aug 2018, 10:52
So you are suggesting that all employees are launching a court case paid by whom? Themselves? If they cant even sustain themselves? Secondly, if they would (all of them) then Ryanair would suspend them .... the result would be the same as a strike, only longer with no end date. You’re even more disconnected from reality than I though
It's 100% realism, based upon O'Leary's quote "we won't pay, unless ordered to do so in court".

Paid by who? Paid by the looser = Ryanair. With costs prepaid by the trade unions legal department.

The real disconnection from reality comes from those, believing that strikes will lead to O'Leary giving in.

sean1982
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by sean1982 » 10 Aug 2018, 11:19

Passenger wrote:
10 Aug 2018, 11:06
sean1982 wrote:
10 Aug 2018, 10:52
So you are suggesting that all employees are launching a court case paid by whom? Themselves? If they cant even sustain themselves? Secondly, if they would (all of them) then Ryanair would suspend them .... the result would be the same as a strike, only longer with no end date. You’re even more disconnected from reality than I though
It's 100% realism, based upon O'Leary's quote "we won't pay, unless ordered to do so in court".

Paid by who? Paid by the looser = Ryanair. With costs prepaid by the trade unions legal department.

The real disconnection from reality comes from those, believing that strikes will lead to O'Leary giving in.
Thats not answer to the most important issue. If all employees take Ryanair to court simultaneously, they will be suspended/fired. Same as a strike, just longer with no end date.

flightlover
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by flightlover » 10 Aug 2018, 11:28

Passenger wrote:
10 Aug 2018, 11:06
sean1982 wrote:
10 Aug 2018, 10:52
So you are suggesting that all employees are launching a court case paid by whom? Themselves? If they cant even sustain themselves? Secondly, if they would (all of them) then Ryanair would suspend them .... the result would be the same as a strike, only longer with no end date. You’re even more disconnected from reality than I though
It's 100% realism, based upon O'Leary's quote "we won't pay, unless ordered to do so in court".

Paid by who? Paid by the looser = Ryanair. With costs prepaid by the trade unions legal department.

The real disconnection from reality comes from those, believing that strikes will lead to O'Leary giving in.
I wouldn't be sure about that statement. For now the shareholders are backing O'Leary because he is doing what they want: make money for them. But the headwind is increasing and it is getting personal due to his press statements. In the end O'Leary will have to give in or be removed due to his presence becoming more of a liability than an advantage.

The use of unions is achieving the same condition for large groups of workers. It's not called a law firm.

PttU
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by PttU » 10 Aug 2018, 12:34

brabel wrote:
06 Aug 2018, 09:37
737MAX wrote:
06 Aug 2018, 08:37

All you care about is passenger rights. Good. Fantastic. We all got the point too. Passenger have rights, yes. But you can’t blame the employees for not respecting their rights. You just can’t. And as already said many times by others, these passengers paying peanuts to fly with Ryanair perfectly know which airline they are flying with from the moment they buy their ticket online... do we need to feel sorry for them? Probably, their travel plans are destroyed. But they knew the risks when choosing them.
I'm sorry, but I cannot agree with your last sentence especially.
It's not because someone chooses to fly ryanair, they "know" that their plane won't take off.
It's not because people want to fly on low fares that they agree with a cancelled flight.

According to your statement: if someone buys some cheap car, they know their car won't last long?
You want what you pay for. If you buy a cheap car, you want it to drive.
If you buy a cheap airline ticket, you want to fly.

And yes, you should feel sorry for everyone that's affected by a strike.
As a passenger you don't always get a choice to either pay super-low-fares with super-low quality or pay a "normal" price with a "normal" chance your flight will go as planned and a "normal" treatment if anything goes wrong. Sometimes you fly Ryanair (or another LCC) just because that flight is the only option or just suits best.
Passenger wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 20:39
And another question: some collegues have organized a travel package with FR flights. Travel legislation now forces them to buy other flights for the passengers. Have you any idea how much 5 last minutes tickets to Venice cost for a Friday evening? Have you any idea how that travel agent feels, knowing that no one will reimburse those extremely expensive tickets?
One might only hope that travel agent doesn't offer packages with FR anymore, or adds some kind of disclaimer when the travellers still want lowest price and thus are okay with the Ryanair-risks. If the travel agent just offered the package without clearly mentioning Ryanair and specifying the risks, it's their own fault and they should indeed be "punished" by paying the price of those last-minute flights to Venice.

But the same tension between low prices versus decent treatment goes for the entire industry, not only Ryanair. If the ground handling crew goes on strike because any (or every) airline wants to pay the minimum or preferably even less, both the super-cheap-ticket-travelers and people willing to pay a reasonable price are hit. And no, flying a private plane doesn't count as a reasonable price :p
After this strike, people will still be flying FR for 6.99eur in stead of another airline for 69eur. So a good alternative (or addition) to the strikes would be to inform passengers of the results of their choice to fly so cheap: tell them "if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys". Tell them what a reasonable price would be, tell them what happens in the background and what the price of all that is... and indirectly promote the airlines which do offer a "normal" service for a "normal" price.

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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Passenger » 10 Aug 2018, 18:04

Court case in the Netherlands, 09th August 2018, VNV ("the pilots") versus Ryanair:

verdict:
https://uitspraken.rechtspraak.nl/inzie ... :2018:7026

DIBO
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by DIBO » 10 Aug 2018, 18:47

dutch court ruling wrote:1.8.De bezwaren van VNV tegen dergelijke aankondigingen zijn gegrond op de vrees dat Ryanair in dat geval stakingsbrekende acties kan ondernemen. Die vrees acht de voorzieningenrechter niet geheel ongegrond, ondanks de mededelingen ter zitting van de advocaat van Ryanair dat daarvan ook morgen geen sprake van zou zijn. Dit risico kan evenwel worden ondervangen door een daarbij aan Ryanair te stellen voorwaarde dat zij zich van stakingsbrekende acties zal onthouden; meer in het bijzonder dat Ryanair, zoals zij al heeft aangeboden, vluchten ingeval van tijdig aangekondigde stakingen zal annuleren en dus niet piloten van elders zal inzetten. De voorzieningenrechter zal Ryanair aan deze toezegging houden bij het aan VNV op te leggen gebod om in het vervolg stakingen op een door de voorzieningenrechter redelijk geachte termijn van 72 uur aan te kondigen, opdat Ryanair tijdig haar passagiers kan waarschuwen. Met deze maatregel hoopt de voorzieningenrechter een maatregel op te leggen die recht doet aan de wederzijdse belangen van partijen
So just after this ruling, Ryanair is breaking it's commitment to the court "not to break the strike by calling in pilots from elsewhere, if the 72h strike pre-announcement period is respected". Today's strike was announced more than 72h beforehand, yet they called in 'foreign' pilots to break this strike

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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by sn26567 » 10 Aug 2018, 18:49

sn26567 wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 20:24
Test Achats/Aankoop is going to court on behalf of 50 passengers to whom Ryanair refused to pay the EU261 compensation after the cancellations of 25/26 July. Hearings will be held at the Justice de paix of Charleroi and the Vredegerecht of Zaventem. These are the 50 first claimants, members of the association, on the list. Others will follow.
Test Achats/Aankoop has now opened more than 800 files of disgruntled passengers who are refused EU261 compensation by Ryanair. MOL said that he would not pay, unless ordered by a Court. I think that now he will have to open his wallet.
André
ex Sabena #26567

Passenger
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Passenger » 10 Aug 2018, 19:44

DIBO wrote:
10 Aug 2018, 18:47
dutch court ruling wrote:1.8.De bezwaren van VNV tegen dergelijke aankondigingen zijn gegrond op de vrees dat Ryanair in dat geval stakingsbrekende acties kan ondernemen. Die vrees acht de voorzieningenrechter niet geheel ongegrond, ondanks de mededelingen ter zitting van de advocaat van Ryanair dat daarvan ook morgen geen sprake van zou zijn. Dit risico kan evenwel worden ondervangen door een daarbij aan Ryanair te stellen voorwaarde dat zij zich van stakingsbrekende acties zal onthouden; meer in het bijzonder dat Ryanair, zoals zij al heeft aangeboden, vluchten ingeval van tijdig aangekondigde stakingen zal annuleren en dus niet piloten van elders zal inzetten. De voorzieningenrechter zal Ryanair aan deze toezegging houden bij het aan VNV op te leggen gebod om in het vervolg stakingen op een door de voorzieningenrechter redelijk geachte termijn van 72 uur aan te kondigen, opdat Ryanair tijdig haar passagiers kan waarschuwen. Met deze maatregel hoopt de voorzieningenrechter een maatregel op te leggen die recht doet aan de wederzijdse belangen van partijen
So just after this ruling, Ryanair is breaking it's commitment to the court "not to break the strike by calling in pilots from elsewhere, if the 72h strike pre-announcement period is respected". Today's strike was announced more than 72h beforehand, yet they called in 'foreign' pilots to break this strike
No: see 2.1.: the above clause is only for forthcoming strikes, ànd on condition that VNV announces strikes with at least 72 hours notice. Which wasn't done for today's strike.

I'm pretty sure that Ryanair will go into appeal against the above clause. It's not because trade unions don't like it that employers try to "break" a strike, that a judge can rule as such. Against the legal right to strike, there is also the legal freedom of enterprise and the legal right to work (for non-strikers).

DIBO
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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by DIBO » 10 Aug 2018, 20:27

sn26567 wrote:
06 Aug 2018, 15:12
A conciliation meeting at Ryanair offices this morning didn't result in an agreement. Therefore the strike of 10 August will go on, according to union sources.
looks like more than 72h in advance, to me.
dutch court ruling wrote:1.8.... Die vrees acht de voorzieningenrechter niet geheel ongegrond, ondanks de mededelingen ter zitting van de advocaat van Ryanair dat daarvan ook morgen geen sprake van zou zijn. Dit risico kan evenwel worden ondervangen door een daarbij aan Ryanair te stellen voorwaarde dat zij zich van stakingsbrekende acties zal onthouden
even in court, Lyanair stated that even for today's strike, no 'strike-breaking' action would be taken.
Yeah right :roll:

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Re: Ryanair cabin crew strike 25 and 26 July 2018 - cockpit strike 10 August

Post by Passenger » 11 Aug 2018, 18:52

You can't blame Ryanair for not respecting, on 6th August, a court verdict that is issued 3 days later. The decision to relocate pilots to Eindhoven and Amsterdam was taken before the court verdict.

If you read the verdict as a whole, it's clear that Ryanair's lawyers didn't prepare their thing decently. Perhaps a reflection of O'Leary's arrogance and overconfidence?

1. The legal ground to forbit or limit a strike is set in Article G of the European Social Manifesto. I haven't read that, but the Judge has done if for me. In brief: "...Dat is slechts het geval indien de beperkingen aan het recht op collectieve acties maatschappelijk gezien dringend noodzakelijk zijn..." Ryanair fails to proof this, the Judge said, by not going to court in other countries were strikes with more impact were announced: "...Het gaat om een 24-uursstaking die samenvalt met stakingen elders in Europa, die een veel grotere impact hebben dan de onderhavige staking en waartegen door Ryanair niet wordt opgetreden..."

2. Ryanair also failed to proof that a strike during the weekend has more severe consequences then a strike on a week day: "...Daarnaast heeft Ryanair niet inzichtelijk weten te maken waarom een staking in het weekend tot grotere schade zou leiden dan een stakingsactie op doordeweekse dagen en waarom dus specifiek een staking in de weekenden moet worden verboden. In de tussen partijen gevoerde correspondentie is door Ryanair pas op het allerlaatste moment onderscheid gemaakt tussen stakingen in het weekend en doordeweeks..."

- - -

I dislike the judgement. Not because the trade unions have "won", but because once again the passengers' rights are ignored. But then: when no one brings passengers rights up, a judge can't rule as such in a non in-depth court case.

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