The CityJet Sukhoi SSJ100-95 saga is hurting Brussels Airlines

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Post Reply
convair
Posts: 1527
Joined: 18 Nov 2011, 00:02

The CityJet Sukhoi SSJ100-95 saga is hurting Brussels Airlines

Post by convair » 24 May 2018, 16:21

Note of moderator: Given the high number of problems seen these last few weeks with the CityJet SSJ100s operating for Brussels Airlines, I thought it would be useful to open a thread covering these stories and to regroup all the related messages in this thread. Let's go with this first message from convair!

Does someone here know what is (are) the problem(s) with the ones leased to SN?

User avatar
CTBke
Posts: 947
Joined: 13 May 2003, 00:00

Re: Sukhoi Superjet SSJ100 news

Post by CTBke » 27 May 2018, 16:34

convair wrote:
24 May 2018, 16:21
Does someone here know what is (are) the problem(s) with the ones leased to SN?
lack of parts and no spare planes
Citybird
The flying dream

Ansett
Posts: 251
Joined: 13 Apr 2016, 19:12

Re: Sukhoi Superjet SSJ100 news

Post by Ansett » 28 May 2018, 00:06

Any support from LH ? (of course not as regards spare parts, but otherwise).

User avatar
CTBke
Posts: 947
Joined: 13 May 2003, 00:00

Re: Sukhoi Superjet SSJ100 news

Post by CTBke » 28 May 2018, 18:20

Ansett wrote:
28 May 2018, 00:06
Any support from LH ? (of course not as regards spare parts, but otherwise).
If LH would give support it's bye bye Cityjet
Citybird
The flying dream

convair
Posts: 1527
Joined: 18 Nov 2011, 00:02

Re: Sukhoi Superjet SSJ100 news

Post by convair » 28 May 2018, 18:47

Ansett wrote:
28 May 2018, 00:06
Any support from LH ? (of course not as regards spare parts, but otherwise).
Sure! They allow stranded pax to travel via FRA on LH. :)

BTW, according to the LH group fleet site, a 7th SSJ (EI-FWG) is being prepared with SN livery at VCE!

Passenger
Posts: 5475
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Sukhoi Superjet SSJ100 news

Post by Passenger » 28 May 2018, 19:04

convair wrote:
28 May 2018, 18:47
Ansett wrote:
28 May 2018, 00:06
Any support from LH ? (of course not as regards spare parts, but otherwise).
Sure! They allow stranded pax to travel via FRA on LH. :)
I know someone very good who was stranded on a SN-Cityjet SSJ flight last week, Brussels-Nantes. Rerouting was offered out of MUC (LH, BRU-MUC included) or out of AMS (KLM, train 1st class included).

Both Brussels Airlines and Lufthansa are well aware of the problems. And SN and LH don't like it, I've been told.

User avatar
CTBke
Posts: 947
Joined: 13 May 2003, 00:00

Re: Sukhoi Superjet SSJ100 news

Post by CTBke » 28 May 2018, 22:07

Passenger wrote:
28 May 2018, 19:04
convair wrote:
28 May 2018, 18:47
Ansett wrote:
28 May 2018, 00:06
Any support from LH ? (of course not as regards spare parts, but otherwise).
Sure! They allow stranded pax to travel via FRA on LH. :)
I know someone very good who was stranded on a SN-Cityjet SSJ flight last week, Brussels-Nantes. Rerouting was offered out of MUC (LH, BRU-MUC included) or out of AMS (KLM, train 1st class included).

Both Brussels Airlines and Lufthansa are well aware of the problems. And SN and LH don't like it, I've been told.
what's the use having a wetlease when you have to use your own planes (which they don't) to clean up the mess Cityjet is making with their 'superjet'
Citybird
The flying dream

Ansett
Posts: 251
Joined: 13 Apr 2016, 19:12

Re: Sukhoi Superjet SSJ100 news

Post by Ansett » 28 May 2018, 23:38

convair wrote:
28 May 2018, 18:47
Ansett wrote:
28 May 2018, 00:06
Any support from LH ? (of course not as regards spare parts, but otherwise).
Sure! They allow stranded pax to travel via FRA on LH. :)
Extra traffic and revenue for LH. Bills paid by SN.

Didn't we see something similar before ?

Passenger
Posts: 5475
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Sukhoi Superjet SSJ100 news

Post by Passenger » 28 May 2018, 23:48

Ansett wrote:
28 May 2018, 23:38
convair wrote:
28 May 2018, 18:47
Ansett wrote:
28 May 2018, 00:06
Any support from LH ? (of course not as regards spare parts, but otherwise).
Sure! They allow stranded pax to travel via FRA on LH. :)
Extra traffic and revenue for LH. Bills paid by SN.
Didn't we see something similar before ?
Well, then it's what we use to call vestzak-broekzak. Both airlines belong to the same owner, so the difference between extra traffic (LH) and bills (SN) is pure loss for the owner. Extra costs (like meals, hotel costs, train tickets): pure loss for the owner.

JustPlanes
Posts: 840
Joined: 11 Aug 2008, 21:27
Contact:

Re: Sukhoi Superjet SSJ100 news

Post by JustPlanes » 29 May 2018, 10:07

With all this crap SN should get out of this contract pronto and acquire some regional planes it can operate with its own crews... or work something out with VLM to get some Embraers or something... the number of cancellations is unacceptable!

ezis_bis
Posts: 146
Joined: 07 Aug 2014, 17:11
Location: Tallinn, EU

Re: Sukhoi Superjet SSJ100 news

Post by ezis_bis » 29 May 2018, 12:08

JustPlanes wrote:
29 May 2018, 10:07
the number of cancellations is unacceptable!
Well, I'm supposed to fly a Superjet this summer, and it can go two ways;

a) I have my very first Superjet flight (yay!)
b) They need to cancel/rebook, and compensate (yay!)

But beginning of summer season, I doubt you will easily find some spare 100-120 seaters laying around

Ansett
Posts: 251
Joined: 13 Apr 2016, 19:12

Re: Sukhoi Superjet SSJ100 news

Post by Ansett » 29 May 2018, 13:59

Passenger wrote:
28 May 2018, 23:48
Ansett wrote:
28 May 2018, 23:38
convair wrote:
28 May 2018, 18:47

Sure! They allow stranded pax to travel via FRA on LH. :)
Extra traffic and revenue for LH. Bills paid by SN.
Didn't we see something similar before ?
Well, then it's what we use to call vestzak-broekzak. Both airlines belong to the same owner, so the difference between extra traffic (LH) and bills (SN) is pure loss for the owner. Extra costs (like meals, hotel costs, train tickets): pure loss for the owner.
Well, that's pre-1990's economics. Since the new wave of mergers and aquisitions which started in the 1990's, companies and large multinationals groups have applied a different practice.

In the airline industry, if an airline has a route that is loss-making, the airline closes that route.
In general, when a part of a company is loss-making, it is closed down. If, within a larger group, a part of the group is not profitable, it is either sold or closed down.

The neutral financial operation (vestzak broekzak) you refer to, is an outdated economic principle whcih does not apply anymore.

Modern economics are different. Welcome ("unfortunately") to the 21st century.

Passenger
Posts: 5475
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Sukhoi Superjet SSJ100 news

Post by Passenger » 29 May 2018, 14:39

Ansett wrote:
28 May 2018, 23:38
Extra traffic and revenue for LH. Bills paid by SN.
Bills for these reroutings are paid by SN indeed, but the extra traffic is no extra revenu for LH at all.

In general, every rerouting is a loss: time lost for staff, flights to be booked are more expensive, meals & drinks, sometimes a hotel, sometimes an indemnity. And because SN and LH are owned by the same owner, it's that owner who has to pay at the end. Thus vestzak broekzak indeed.

Amount of the loss: all rerouting costs minus what the passengers have paid. When passengers have booked at the SN Check&Go tariff, the loss for LH can become huge. My above example: a passenger has paid for a SN Brussels-Nantes, but now is rebooked onto two LH flights: BRU-MUC and MUC-NTE. That's two seats less for LH to sell.

I can assure you: LH is very very unhappy with those Cityjet Superjet things.

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 33489
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Sukhoi Superjet SSJ100 news

Post by sn26567 » 29 May 2018, 16:16

Ansett wrote:
28 May 2018, 23:38

Extra traffic and revenue for LH. Bills paid by SN.
I would assume that the bills will be paid by CityJet in one way or the other. And CityJet might then ask for compensation from Sukhoi.

Or am I missing something?
André
ex Sabena #26567

Ansett
Posts: 251
Joined: 13 Apr 2016, 19:12

Re: Sukhoi Superjet SSJ100 news

Post by Ansett » 29 May 2018, 20:30

sn26567 wrote:
29 May 2018, 16:16
Ansett wrote:
28 May 2018, 23:38

Extra traffic and revenue for LH. Bills paid by SN.
I would assume that the bills will be paid by CityJet in one way or the other. And CityJet might then ask for compensation from Sukhoi.
I hope you are right (you probably are, indeed).
I don't want to be the one who is always pessimistic, but when will these compensations be paid to SN and will Cityjet be in a sound enough position to.pay ? Let us hope they have.insurance coverage. Financial compensation from Sukhoi may take a while to get. But you are probably right : SN may not suffer direct financial losses, but then there is the «image loss».

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 33489
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by sn26567 » 05 Jun 2018, 19:21

It's in the topic "Fleet renewal" but...

CityJet replaced SSJ100s with RJ85s on routes it normally operates on behalf of Brussels Airlines. Technical problems and a lack of spare parts are keeping several SSJs grounded, resulting in numerous flight delays and cancellations.
André
ex Sabena #26567

DannyVDB
Posts: 816
Joined: 12 Aug 2003, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by DannyVDB » 05 Jun 2018, 20:43

It seems they are preparing a new SSJ100 in VCE ...

See https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/brussels

User avatar
b.lufthansa
Posts: 116
Joined: 15 Sep 2008, 08:25

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by b.lufthansa » 05 Jun 2018, 21:07

DannyVDB wrote:
05 Jun 2018, 20:43
It seems they are preparing a new SSJ100 in VCE ...

See https://sites.google.com/site/lhgroupfleet/brussels
A spare parts Sukhoi, a spare Sukhoi or one actually flying ?

User avatar
CTBke
Posts: 947
Joined: 13 May 2003, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by CTBke » 06 Jun 2018, 10:20

sn26567 wrote:
05 Jun 2018, 19:21
It's in the topic "Fleet renewal" but...

CityJet replaced SSJ100s with RJ85s on routes it normally operates on behalf of Brussels Airlines. Technical problems and a lack of spare parts are keeping several SSJs grounded, resulting in numerous flight delays and cancellations.
it's about time as Cityjet is destroying SN's reputation with their Sukhoi's
Citybird
The flying dream

Passenger
Posts: 5475
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Sukhoi Superjet SSJ100 news

Post by Passenger » 13 Jun 2018, 14:44

CTBke wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 14:02
nordikcam wrote:
13 Jun 2018, 12:57
Great ! Nice aircraft, nice fans,nice safety instructions...but "en même temps" they cancel a lot of flights : Billund, Hannover, Toulouse, Rome, Stockholm ( all flights ) Birmingham, Nantes...how do they solve the problem? Disastrous image !
Thanks to Cityjet's superjet they need to shuffle and recover as much flights possible
The problems with the Cityjet SSJ's have been reported here many many times before, and Brussels Airlines is very very well aware of them, including the fallout on their image. However, there is no instant solution: there are no aircraft available with the same performances as the SSJ-100-95 (remember they replace the routes, done with Avro's).

This is what someone from within Brussels Airlines told me: Cityjet is a reliable and flexible partner and the crew are excellent, but the SSJ-100-95 is disappointing. Apart from the structural issue many months ago: when nowadays a technical issue happens, even a small one, it's disaster. There are little airports with engineers who are qualified to work on the SSJ-100-95. And even worse; when a spare part is needed, it has to come from Venice. That needs time, and that causes ongoing delays. So Brussels Airlines is cancelling flights indeed, also on medium term, depending on actual load factors. But there is also a contract with Cityjet that has to be respected.

Post Reply