Crash Saratov Airlines Antonov An-148 reg. RA-61704 near Moscow, 71 fatalities

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sn26567
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Re: Crash Saratov Airlines Antonov An-148 reg. RA-61704 near Moscow, 71 fatalities

Post by sn26567 » 13 Feb 2018, 19:14

Preliminary conclusions seem to indicate frozen Pitot tubes (like on the Air France AF447 A330 crash in the South Atlantic).

Meanwhile, Saratov Airlines plans to replace their (grounded) An-148s with Yak-42s and E190s.
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Re: Crash Saratov Airlines Antonov An-148 reg. RA-61704 near Moscow, 71 fatalities

Post by convair » 14 Feb 2018, 13:18

sn26567 wrote:
13 Feb 2018, 19:14
Preliminary conclusions seem to indicate frozen Pitot tubes (like on the Air France AF447 A330 crash in the South Atlantic).
Again these Pitot tubes! Isn't that an outdated method?

For a very small price, you can buy a GPS that gives you your speed with enough precision anywhere in the world.

Of course, in a plane you also need the wind speed, but, if Pitots cannot be replaced, the GPS could at least be used as comparison/warning with the reading of the Pitots.

There seems to be an unusual and strange lack of reactivity from the Aviation world here!

(Just in case you're wondering, I'm no expert in aviation. :) )

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Re: Crash Saratov Airlines Antonov An-148 reg. RA-61704 near Moscow, 71 fatalities

Post by jan_olieslagers » 14 Feb 2018, 13:43

"The Aviation World" has always been very very conservative. And no, as you state, GPS gives "ground" speed and that is of no use in determining imminent stall. Do not forget that, at airliner altitudes (FL300-450, roughly) winds can be very strong, 200 kts is nothing exceptional. So if the ground speed reads 300 kts, with a 200 kts headwind all is ok (except the fuel burn...) but with the 200 kts on the tail there might well be deep trouble.

That said, pitot tubes and their heaters are outdated antiques. I have no idea how to replace them, but today's technology should be able to come up with something.

Also: to avoid stalling (like happened to AF447) there exists an instrument called the AoA-indicator ("angle of attack") - it seems curiously and critically undervalued. Whether it would have helped in this case is too early to say.

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Re: Crash Saratov Airlines Antonov An-148 reg. RA-61704 near Moscow, 71 fatalities

Post by convair » 14 Feb 2018, 15:41

You're right of course. What I suggested is that a sudden deviation between both readings could trigger a warning that the Pitots just "might" be wrong, prompting the pilots to look at other parameters too.

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Re: Crash Saratov Airlines Antonov An-148 reg. RA-61704 near Moscow, 71 fatalities

Post by Passenger » 20 Mar 2018, 19:20

"...On Mar 20th 2018 Russia's Ministry of Transport (Rostransnador) issued a directive to suspend all flights on any aircraft type operated by Saratov Airlines as result of violations having been found. An assessment of risks and corrective actions to maintain an acceptable level of safety and to eliminate identified violations of air legistlation, is to be undertaken. Based on the results of the checks of the AN-148s of Saratov Airlines Rostransnador is going to undertake also unscheduled inspections of AN-148s operated by other airlines to ensure compliance with airworthiness requirements. Based on the results of those inspections further decisions may be taken..."

http://avherald.com/h?article=4b4cb236&opt=0

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Re: Crash Saratov Airlines Antonov An-148 reg. RA-61704 near Moscow, 71 fatalities

Post by jan_olieslagers » 20 Mar 2018, 21:02

convair wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 15:41
a sudden deviation between both readings could trigger a warning that the Pitots just "might" be wrong
A fair wish! Unfortunately, icing doesn't usually occur suddenly.

(and my apologies for only replying so very late)

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Re: Crash Saratov Airlines Antonov An-148 reg. RA-61704 near Moscow, 71 fatalities

Post by convair » 21 Mar 2018, 12:38

jan_olieslagers wrote:
20 Mar 2018, 21:02
convair wrote:
14 Feb 2018, 15:41
a sudden deviation between both readings could trigger a warning that the Pitots just "might" be wrong
A fair wish! Unfortunately, icing doesn't usually occur suddenly.
Sure, but can't the full obstruction of the tubes be rather sudden?
jan_olieslagers wrote:
20 Mar 2018, 21:02
(and my apologies for only replying so very late)
No problem; thanks for the reply.

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Re: Crash Saratov Airlines Antonov An-148 reg. RA-61704 near Moscow, 71 fatalities

Post by sn26567 » 15 Jun 2018, 23:27

Saratov Airlines withdrew its application for an AOC for a new airline with the same name.
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