Brussels Airlines in 2018

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sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sean1982 » 13 Mar 2018, 12:25

Well if the only thing that keeps SN afloat is the income from a very unstable region then as an investor I would be seriously worried. It brings me back to my original point of unsustainable growth. Loads of praise posts here about “the endless amounts of B-tails at A gates” which don’t do anything when not making money. The phasing of the Avro’s hasn’t brought in the money. Profit is only made on very very few routes while the fuel price is still averagely low ... I’m more and more starting to see why Gustin was asked to pack up his desk

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KriVa
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by KriVa » 13 Mar 2018, 12:34

The endless amount of B-Tails only happens twice a day, really... after the morning arrival peak, and after the evening arrival peak. A few hours later, most if not all of those aircraft are gone again. It’s not like they are sitting at a gate doing nothing all day.
While they may have missed the target they were aiming for for 2017 (figures aren’t published yet, are they?), they are profitable. If they need to run a few short haul routes unprofitable in order to get connections to very profitable long haul flights, so be it. I’d doubt they’re the only ones using that strategy. The end result counts.
Thomas

convair
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by convair » 13 Mar 2018, 14:40

KriVa wrote:
13 Mar 2018, 12:34
If they need to run a few short haul routes unprofitable in order to get connections to very profitable long haul flights, so be it. I’d doubt they’re the only ones using that strategy. The end result counts.
I agree with that. What is worrying is that the l/h fights are not profitable, although for BOM, it's too early to decide, imho, after less than a year of operation!

For the tatl flights, I see, among others, 3 possible reasons:
1. people want daily flights;
2. not reliable: too many cancellations, for JFK anyway;
3. due to lack of planes, the choice of destinations is too narrow, so the name isn't known overseas. (destinations like Boston, Montreal, Atlanta were very successful during Sabena time, before the Swissair episode)

Ansett
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Ansett » 14 Mar 2018, 00:06

KriVa wrote:
13 Mar 2018, 12:34
If they need to run a few short haul routes unprofitable in order to get connections to very profitable long haul flights, so be it. I’d doubt they’re the only ones using that strategy. The end result counts.
I agree. I wonder how many European routes operated by LH are profitable ?
Passenger wrote:
13 Mar 2018, 11:45
Therefore, it would be utterly stupid from Dirks to reveal a strategic plan and commercial details on a public forum like the Ondernemingsraad/Conseil d'Entreprise. Simply because the competition then also knows.
Not only the competition would know, but the workers, too, would know management's real intentions !
This works council meeting was just a cosmetic operation to keep employees quiet.

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sean1982 » 14 Mar 2018, 06:49

Ansett wrote:
14 Mar 2018, 00:06
KriVa wrote:
13 Mar 2018, 12:34
If they need to run a few short haul routes unprofitable in order to get connections to very profitable long haul flights, so be it. I’d doubt they’re the only ones using that strategy. The end result counts.
I agree. I wonder how many European routes operated by LH are profitable ?
I agree, but for that to work you need an extensive profitable long haul network. not just a partly profitable small one. It also shows that the choice for vast amount of low yield O&D routes was the wrong one. SN’s cost base is too high to make that work

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Passenger » 14 Mar 2018, 09:50

Ansett wrote:
14 Mar 2018, 00:06
Passenger wrote:
13 Mar 2018, 11:45
Therefore, it would be utterly stupid from Dirks to reveal a strategic plan and commercial details on a public forum like the Ondernemingsraad/Conseil d'Entreprise. Simply because the competition then also knows.
Not only the competition would know, but the workers, too, would know management's real intentions!
This works council meeting was just a cosmetic operation to keep employees quiet.
1. It wasn't management who called for this works council meeting.
2. The union delegates don't represent the workers. The union delegates only represent their members.
3. Management has already informed the employees about their "real intentions".
4. I'm no SN employee and you are no SN employee. Though we would like to know all details about the long term strategic plan out of curiosity, we can't blame management for not telling us.

airbuske
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by airbuske » 14 Mar 2018, 11:04

sean1982 wrote:
14 Mar 2018, 06:49

I agree, but for that to work you need an extensive profitable long haul network. not just a partly profitable small one. It also shows that the choice for vast amount of low yield O&D routes was the wrong one. SN’s cost base is too high to make that work

SN has one of the lowest cost base in the LH group, the difference with LH is huge!
There is a rumour that the TXL route is going back to SN because the revenue when operated by EW is too low.
Best regards,

Airbuske

sean1982
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sean1982 » 14 Mar 2018, 11:23

airbuske wrote:
14 Mar 2018, 11:04
sean1982 wrote:
14 Mar 2018, 06:49

I agree, but for that to work you need an extensive profitable long haul network. not just a partly profitable small one. It also shows that the choice for vast amount of low yield O&D routes was the wrong one. SN’s cost base is too high to make that work

SN has one of the lowest cost base in the LH group, the difference with LH is huge!
There is a rumour that the TXL route is going back to SN because the revenue when operated by EW is too low.
I get that, Thats why the “long haul center of excellence” will be in hands of SN, but the gap with the loco’s is still big. Most european Airlines can offset their losses on Europe with an extensive long haul network. SN can too with Africa for now, but the region is getting more unstable and fuel prices are on the rise

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 » 14 Mar 2018, 16:21

Ansett wrote:
14 Mar 2018, 00:06
I wonder how many European routes operated by LH are profitable ?
Mind you! LH is asking much higher prices than SN on its European routes.
André
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Boeing767copilot
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Boeing767copilot » 15 Mar 2018, 11:40

Figures 2017
---------------

Operating profit (EBIT) of €14.98 million in 2017 (IFRS standard) vs. 20,4 million in 2016
Net result of €3.57 million (IFRS) vs. 15 million in 2016.

Not so good. :(

http://www.aviation24.be/airlines/lufth ... n-in-2017/

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luchtzak
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by luchtzak » 15 Mar 2018, 13:54

From May 2018, SWISS will introduce a buy on board (BOB) concept from medium-haul flights to/from Geneva. It has been called "SWISS saveurs" and looks a little bit like the BOB concept of Brussels Airlines.

http://www.aviation24.be/airlines/lufth ... om-geneva/

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CTBke
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by CTBke » 15 Mar 2018, 14:00

luchtzak wrote:
15 Mar 2018, 13:54
From May 2018, SWISS will introduce a buy on board (BOB) concept from medium-haul flights to/from Geneva. It has been called "SWISS saveurs" and looks a little bit like the BOB concept of Brussels Airlines.

http://www.aviation24.be/airlines/lufth ... om-geneva/
looks like the LH group is implementing the SN model slowly with their BOB option
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shockcooling
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by shockcooling » 15 Mar 2018, 14:19

So it's LH, Swiss and Austrian who are going Hybrid and SN, EW who are going low-cost?

DeltaWiskey
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by DeltaWiskey » 15 Mar 2018, 20:33

Quite a disappointing result imo. It also means they lost €15mio in Q4. I think Carsten Spohr is right when he says that this result cannot be attributed to the attacks of 2016 any longer. However, a profit, no matter how small, is always better than a loss! :)

I think all airlines are changing towards the "hybrid" model. LCC's like Ryanair are also going for the more premium passengers, not only the lowest fares. Traditional carriers are either going bust or are changing their cost base and revenue model.

I wonder what the next big change is going to be in the airline industry? Maybe one booking for our whole itinerary? From home to hotel resort, I can imagine there will be a time when we will just book a ticket from our departure point to our final destination: taxi/uber, bus, train, car/parking, flight, etc all combined in one purchase. It seems very convenient to me. Could this be the next major upset in the airline industry?

For those wondering why Austrian still is in the "network carrier" segment. They had an EBIT of 100mio (vs SN's 15mio). Their strategy is definitely working better than SN's. But with the competition finally arriving in Vienna (Wizzair is opening a base there), this could also change quickly.

@shockcooling: Eurowings and SN are not going for the "low cost" marketing label, because they simply aren't. Their cost base is never going to be as low as Ryanair's, Norwegian's or Wizzair's. That's why LH Group names their subsidiaries Point-to-Point and Network/Hub airlines.

Boeing767copilot
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Boeing767copilot » 17 Mar 2018, 15:39

DeltaWiskey wrote:
15 Mar 2018, 20:33
Quite a disappointing result imo. It also means they lost €15mio in Q4. I think Carsten Spohr is right when he says that this result cannot be attributed to the attacks of 2016 any longer. However, a profit, no matter how small, is always better than a loss.
If they lost €15mio in Q4 this means that the deal with TC is not succesfull at all.

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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by Boeing767copilot » 17 Mar 2018, 15:48

However I’m pretty sure that LH/EW rather soon than late will cut in the loss making connecting SN flights in Europe.

And EW can with a lower cost base take over some high yield SN routes like GVA and a few others. Not?

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 » 17 Mar 2018, 16:54

Boeing767copilot wrote:
17 Mar 2018, 15:48
And EW can with a lower cost base take over some high yield SN routes like GVA and a few others. Not?
Who says EW has a lower cost base than SN? Synergies will for sure play a role, but to whom will the profits of the synergies be allocated?
André
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DeltaWiskey
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by DeltaWiskey » 17 Mar 2018, 17:49

Boeing767copilot wrote:
17 Mar 2018, 15:39
If they lost €15mio in Q4 this means that the deal with TC is not succesfull at all.
How is a loss in Q4 directly related to the Thomas Cook deal? SN lost 30 mio in Q1. I think it is more an issue of winter vs summer season/demand.

C96C
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by C96C » 18 Mar 2018, 13:51

OO-SFC, Airbus A330-342, MSN 895, is on the Belgian register since 15/03/2018.

I also found a photo of OE-IFU (future OO-SNL) in SN-livery: https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8888678
It still has its "wifi-bump" :)

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2018

Post by sn26567 » 18 Mar 2018, 14:50

C96C wrote:
18 Mar 2018, 13:51
I also found a photo of OE-IFU (future OO-SNL) in SN-livery: https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/8888678
It still has its "wifi-bump" :)
Funny to see a Brussels Airlines aircraft with a (temporary) Austrian registration.

It would be nice to keep the WiFi: a new source of ancillary revenues!
André
ex Sabena #26567

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