Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

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RoMax
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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by RoMax » 19 Dec 2017, 23:17

nordikcam wrote:
19 Dec 2017, 23:10
In terms of PAX BRU is bigger ( a little bit for sure :-) ) than VIE, no ?
Yes, but that in itself doesn't say anything about the hub size of BRU vs. VIE, at BRU there is much more competition. The market share of OS at VIE is a lot bigger than SN's at BRU. I'm not sure about the market share when including codeshare partners (in particular Star Alliance partners, with the focus on the word 'partners', so SAS or TK at BRU doesn't count as SN doesn't actively work together with them), but Im quite sure VIE is still quite a lot bigger than BRU 'as a hub', but that's mainly due to the large focus of OS on the short/medium haul hub network because in terms of long haul they are not quite impressive.

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by DannyVDB » 20 Dec 2017, 07:38

nordikcam wrote:
19 Dec 2017, 23:10
sn-remember wrote:
19 Dec 2017, 21:58

And Bru could/should have a hub future as well as Vie (as a side issue)
In terms of PAX BRU is bigger ( a little bit for sure :-) ) than VIE, no ?
I don't think so. At least not in 2016. I think this year BRU might become a bit bigger, but it is not sure.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... in_Europe
23 Decrease 1 Austria Vienna International Vienna 22,775,054[13] 23,352,016[13] Increase2.5%
24 Increase 2 Portugal Lisbon Airport Lisbon 20,090,418[14] 22,449,289[14] Increase11.7%
25 Decrease 6 Belgium Brussels Airport Brussels 23,460,018[15] 21,818,418[15] Decrease7.0%
Last edited by DannyVDB on 20 Dec 2017, 07:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by DannyVDB » 20 Dec 2017, 07:47

RoMax wrote:
19 Dec 2017, 23:17
nordikcam wrote:
19 Dec 2017, 23:10
In terms of PAX BRU is bigger ( a little bit for sure :-) ) than VIE, no ?
Yes, but that in itself doesn't say anything about the hub size of BRU vs. VIE, at BRU there is much more competition. The market share of OS at VIE is a lot bigger than SN's at BRU. I'm not sure about the market share when including codeshare partners (in particular Star Alliance partners, with the focus on the word 'partners', so SAS or TK at BRU doesn't count as SN doesn't actively work together with them), but Im quite sure VIE is still quite a lot bigger than BRU 'as a hub', but that's mainly due to the large focus of OS on the short/medium haul hub network because in terms of long haul they are not quite impressive.
I think this is indeed correct. The pax connecting in VIE to East-European destinations is impressive. That is also why SN is considered P2P and OS is considered a network airline in the LH group. For example on flights i was recently on to destinations in the Balkan such as Sarajevo the amount of pax transfering was 80 to 90% (I was even upgraded to Sarajevo to business because of overbooking, it was an A320 - daily connection!). On the other hand the CEO of SN said in an interview in a newspaper (don't remember which one that was) that they aim at having at least 40-50% O&D, even on long haul. That is the difference.

BTW the route map of OS is quite amazing: no destinations served in PT and hardly in ES (even not Barcelona)! They really focus on their niche.

Finally VIE is better located geographically to channel pax towards the East. BRU will never be able to do that !

Just my two cents
Last edited by DannyVDB on 20 Dec 2017, 07:58, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by DannyVDB » 20 Dec 2017, 07:55

Another important difference is that BRU has almost no traffic to 3 major EU airports: London (before the high speed trains I remember there were 1.35 million pax between BRU-London each year), Paris and Amsterdam, simply because we are very close. This are 'trunk' roads for many other airports, marginal for BRU. That will never change either ...

In think end of 1999 these three destination counted for almost 2,5 million pax ...

D

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by lumumba » 20 Dec 2017, 10:11

DannyVDB wrote:
20 Dec 2017, 07:55
Another important difference is that BRU has almost no traffic to 3 major EU airports: London (before the high speed trains I remember there were 1.35 million pax between BRU-London each year), Paris and Amsterdam, simply because we are very close. This are 'trunk' roads for many other airports, marginal for BRU. That will never change either ...

In think end of 1999 these three destination counted for almost 2,5 million pax ...

D
That's true but on the other hand we are in the middle of all this...
From the Nederlands or France it's sometimes easier to go to Brussels than Paris or Amsterdam.
This could be improved if there was a TGV station at the airport.
The only international link the airport has is the Benelux train!!!!!
The direct market Brussels has his huge...it's a very densely populated area and big economic region!
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by nordikcam » 20 Dec 2017, 10:21

DannyVDB wrote:
20 Dec 2017, 07:38
nordikcam wrote:
19 Dec 2017, 23:10
sn-remember wrote:
19 Dec 2017, 21:58

And Bru could/should have a hub future as well as Vie (as a side issue)
In terms of PAX BRU is bigger ( a little bit for sure :-) ) than VIE, no ?
I don't think so. At least not in 2016. I think this year BRU might become a bit bigger, but it is not sure.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... in_Europe
23 Decrease 1 Austria Vienna International Vienna 22,775,054[13] 23,352,016[13] Increase2.5%
24 Increase 2 Portugal Lisbon Airport Lisbon 20,090,418[14] 22,449,289[14] Increase11.7%
25 Decrease 6 Belgium Brussels Airport Brussels 23,460,018[15] 21,818,418[15] Decrease7.0%
But true in 2017 : Jan > Oct 2017 VIE : 20.869.615 PAX ( + 5.2%) and BRU : 21.233.472 (+15.5% )knowing it is not correct to compare 2017 to 2016 year of attacks but ...if we did it in 2016 :-)

Yes VIE is, till now, a bigger connecting airport...Would like to compare with ZRH at the end of the year !

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn-remember » 20 Dec 2017, 12:24

Ok I suppose this is not the appropriate thread to compare bru and vie ito hub ops ? (I know I played a part in this discussion). All I was saying is that there is room for improvement at bru's side, the potential is there, hoping it will reach the "good" ears ? Indeed I would appreciate the lh group management to consider bru as their upcoming 5th hub along with fra,muc,zrh and vie in decreasing order.
--
OS M-E routes development was/is badly hampered by TK's powerful hub in IST. They had to update their copy, giving priority to the Balkans and East Europe instead of going further East against TK. AZ on the other hand would compete better on the M-E market (bcs they have a substantial local demand), provided they offer a good service.
--
Talking about TK, I am really surprised they don't show more interest in the AZ take-over... I can see (in theory at least) lots of added value in a TK-AZ merger. And it would indeed put more pressure on the competition front, a bonus for those fearing a LH regal rule ?

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn-remember » 20 Dec 2017, 13:10

DannyVDB wrote:
20 Dec 2017, 07:47
On the other hand the CEO of SN said in an interview in a newspaper (don't remember which one that was) that they aim at having at least 40-50% O&D, even on long haul. That is the difference.
Finally VIE is better located geographically to channel pax towards the East. BRU will never be able to do that !
I am not sure the CEO of SN is doing the right thing .. A hub will always function more with connecting than O/D trafic. But has he a free hand ?
..
Regarding your last sentence, BRU will always generate an significant local trafic for different reasons : ethnics (lots of different communities around, geography ( same as AMS) and politics (EU commission, nato etc ..)
Just my two cents ..

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn-remember » 20 Dec 2017, 13:59

DannyVDB wrote:
20 Dec 2017, 07:55
Another important difference is that BRU has almost no traffic to 3 major EU airports: London (before the high speed trains I remember there were 1.35 million pax between BRU-London each year), Paris and Amsterdam, simply because we are very close. This are 'trunk' roads for many other airports, marginal for BRU. That will never change either ...

In think end of 1999 these three destination counted for almost 2,5 million pax ...
True but what's the problem ? KL has about 6 daily flights from Ams to Bru as well as from Ams to Dus ... Of course it's 100% connecting traffic and AMS as a major hub can support that.
The strategy at SN'mgt team consists in doing their homework correctly, Paris IMHO could support an additional ORY station and London could well cope with an additional LGW and perhaps a LTN connection later. It obviously depends on how the SN's network operation can grow as a hub ?

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by Ansett » 20 Dec 2017, 16:32

I don''t want to spoil your party, guys, but where's the link with Alitalia ?
Moderator, please, open another thread. Thanks.

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by Stij » 20 Dec 2017, 16:48

Ansett is correct!

Stay on course please!

Cheers,

Stij
See where I've flown at OpenFlights!

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn26567 » 20 Dec 2017, 20:46

Alitalia's government bridge loan – which will be refunded at the end of the transfer procedure – is now a part of Lufthansa takeover negotiations. Alitalia commissioner Luigi Gubitosi said negotiations are still underway, and that the airline’s maintenance business is also under review, as part of the deal.
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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn26567 » 28 Dec 2017, 15:55

A confirmation that Lufthansa is the head runner for the takeover of Alitalia:

http://www.aviation24.be/airlines/alita ... -alitalia/
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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn26567 » 09 Jan 2018, 23:11

Italy could play a role in Alitalia in the future, via the entry of state development bank CDP (Italy) into a new company under Lufthansa management. Decision expected soon.
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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by Yuqu12 » 10 Jan 2018, 14:14

They should be careful that this doesn't become indirect state aid.

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by luchtzak » 11 Jan 2018, 20:03

A new saga in the “Alitalia takeover”-story, on 28 December Italian daily newspaper Corriere della Sera announced that German airline Lufthansa was the favourite for the takeover of the troubled Italian flagship carrier. Today business daily newspaper Il Sole 24 Ore claims that the Air France-KLM group and its American partner Delta Air Lines have decided to join the offer made by British low-cost airline easyJet.

http://www.aviation24.be/airlines/alita ... -takeover/

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn26567 » 11 Jan 2018, 23:05

Meanwhile, Lufthansa CEO Carsten Spohr sees a need for “significant” restructuring at Alitalia before his airline can make a deal to buy the carrier.

Are the cards changing hands?
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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by luchtzak » 13 Jan 2018, 17:25

sn26567 wrote:
11 Jan 2018, 23:05
Meanwhile, Lufthansa CEO Carsten Spohr sees a need for “significant” restructuring at Alitalia before his airline can make a deal to buy the carrier.

Are the cards changing hands?
Air France-KLM group denies taking over ailing Alitalia: http://www.aviation24.be/airlines/air-f ... -alitalia/

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by sn-remember » 15 Jan 2018, 21:49

Surprising denial ...
How can they not try to make a deal ?

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Re: Alitalia near bankruptcy. Can it be saved?

Post by regi » 16 Jan 2018, 23:22

sn26567 wrote:
11 Jan 2018, 23:05
Meanwhile, Lufthansa CEO Carsten Spohr sees a need for “significant” restructuring at Alitalia before his airline can make a deal to buy the carrier.
It is 25 years ago that my father made a similar analysis after a roller coaster ride with that airline.
Restructuring meant in his words " shut that company down right now"

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