Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

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fcw
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by fcw »

JOVAN2 wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 17:24
Now they spend probably lots of money on the control of the surcharge.

Every normal person hates this (tricky) surcharges and retributions or however they call this mafia-like contributions.
Probably some guys make a nice (hidden) income from it ??
There automated gates at the airport railway station, just like you scan your boarding pass before security.

Nothing to do with mafia or hidden income, sorry to disappoint you… Diabolo has been, partly, financed with private money in exchange for a return on investment.

JOVAN2
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by JOVAN2 »

fcw wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 18:17
JOVAN2 wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 17:24
Now they spend probably lots of money on the control of the surcharge.

Every normal person hates this (tricky) surcharges and retributions or however they call this mafia-like contributions.
Probably some guys make a nice (hidden) income from it ??
There automated gates at the airport railway station, just like you scan your boarding pass before security.

Nothing to do with mafia or hidden income, sorry to disappoint you… Diabolo has been, partly, financed with private money in exchange for a return on investment.
You can read on the HLN website that the reason for the price increase is... the shrinking number of people using the train to go to BRU.

Very sad to have bad business like that.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by lumumba »

JOVAN2 wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 18:33
fcw wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 18:17
JOVAN2 wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 17:24
Now they spend probably lots of money on the control of the surcharge.

Every normal person hates this (tricky) surcharges and retributions or however they call this mafia-like contributions.
Probably some guys make a nice (hidden) income from it ??
There automated gates at the airport railway station, just like you scan your boarding pass before security.

Nothing to do with mafia or hidden income, sorry to disappoint you… Diabolo has been, partly, financed with private money in exchange for a return on investment.
You can read on the HLN website that the reason for the price increase is... the shrinking number of people using the train to go to BRU.

Very sad to have bad business like that.
I'm agree with you,it's really to expensive and not competitive anymore I give an example we are 2 and from Brussels it's 12€ plus 2€ for the metro to reach the station it's 28€ together.
With the taxi it's 34€ and it's much more comfortable and faster with luggage etc...
Hasta la victoria siempre.

fcw
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by fcw »

lumumba wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 18:55
JOVAN2 wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 18:33
fcw wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 18:17

There automated gates at the airport railway station, just like you scan your boarding pass before security.

Nothing to do with mafia or hidden income, sorry to disappoint you… Diabolo has been, partly, financed with private money in exchange for a return on investment.
You can read on the HLN website that the reason for the price increase is... the shrinking number of people using the train to go to BRU.

Very sad to have bad business like that.
I'm agree with you,it's really to expensive and not competitive anymore I give an example we are 2 and from Brussels it's 12€ plus 2€ for the metro to reach the station it's 28€ together.
With the taxi it's 34€ and it's much more comfortable and faster with luggage etc...
Are you aware of the fact that the number of passengers at Bru is still 30% lower than in 2019 and so the drop in railway users is not surprising at all?

JOVAN2
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by JOVAN2 »

fcw wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 21:02
lumumba wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 18:55
JOVAN2 wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 18:33

You can read on the HLN website that the reason for the price increase is... the shrinking number of people using the train to go to BRU.

Very sad to have bad business like that.
I'm agree with you,it's really to expensive and not competitive anymore I give an example we are 2 and from Brussels it's 12€ plus 2€ for the metro to reach the station it's 28€ together.
With the taxi it's 34€ and it's much more comfortable and faster with luggage etc...
Are you aware of the fact that the number of passengers at Bru is still 30% lower than in 2019 and so the drop in railway users is not surprising at all?
Like everybody, I am aware that SNCB/NMBS is an old fashioned state company. They will never survive in a competitive environment.

The Parkings at BRU are again FULL, even with the extension of Parking 3.

Trains ?? : you try it once and than never again.

A little bit of modern business-attitude could make BRU (and NMBS/SNCF) a real success and a money making and job creating success.

brabel
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by brabel »

I always take the train to BRU.
It's practical and easy. Not stuck in traffic, high frequency, easy access. These advantages can't be denied. Especially if you live in a city.

But that diabolo makes it unnecessarily expensive.

BRU's CEO said that the lack of custom agents makes intercontinental airline carriers doubt to choose for BRU... Any reactions to that?
Last edited by brabel on 20 Jan 2023, 23:12, edited 1 time in total.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by lumumba »

brabel wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 22:36 I always take the train to BRU.
It's practical and easy. Not stuck in traffic, high frequency, easy access. These advantages can't be denied. Especially is you live in a city.

But that diabolo makes it unnecessarily expensive.

BRU's CEO said that the lack of custom agents makes intercontinental airline carriers doubt to choose for BRU... Any reactions to that?
If your alone it can be an option but if you are more from Brussels City the train is not the best option.
You can be blocked on the Ring and loose maybe 10 minutes but that's it.
This trains are empty so make duo or family tickets it will not make it more expensive with more people in the train!
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Boavida »

Arrived at the B Pier yesterday. Oh my, the overall 'look' of this pier looks terribly dated. Knowing BRU, I was expecting some old fashioned 'infrastructure' at B-Pier, but even I was surprised...

Seriously BAC, you have to accelerate the renovation of your old fashioned airport! Practically all European airports are doing it but at BRU I haven't seen the slightest plan for redevelopment... Today only the Connector and A-pier are up to 21st century standards. ALL(!) the rest (= B-pier, main departure terminal, baggage reclaim, arrival hall, bus area, drop of area,....) look cramped/old fashioned and need to be renewed fast.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by lumumba »

Boavida wrote: 23 Jan 2023, 16:05 Arrived at the B Pier yesterday. Oh my, the overall 'look' of this pier looks terribly dated. Knowing BRU, I was expecting some old fashioned 'infrastructure' at B-Pier, but even I was surprised...

Seriously BAC, you have to accelerate the renovation of your old fashioned airport! Practically all European airports are doing it but at BRU I haven't seen the slightest plan for redevelopment... Today only the Connector and A-pier are up to 21st century standards. ALL(!) the rest (= B-pier, main departure terminal, baggage reclaim, arrival hall, bus area, drop of area,....) look cramped/old fashioned and need to be renewed fast.
Why?
I looks ok to me.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

b720
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by b720 »

Boavida wrote: 23 Jan 2023, 16:05 Arrived at the B Pier yesterday. Oh my, the overall 'look' of this pier looks terribly dated. Knowing BRU, I was expecting some old fashioned 'infrastructure' at B-Pier, but even I was surprised...

Seriously BAC, you have to accelerate the renovation of your old fashioned airport! Practically all European airports are doing it but at BRU I haven't seen the slightest plan for redevelopment... Today only the Connector and A-pier are up to 21st century standards. ALL(!) the rest (= B-pier, main departure terminal, baggage reclaim, arrival hall, bus area, drop of area,....) look cramped/old fashioned and need to be renewed fast.
It is really fine. And works very well. Very functional.
I think that BRU is a very user friendly airport. I fly in and out almost weekly. Hardly had issues. Pier B from disembarking to my car 10 min. Departure is fine. After security .. passport is usually fast (machines) .. shopping area is decent. Gates are easily accessible and plenty of seating..clean and tidy.

crew1990
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by crew1990 »

I tend to agree as well. Beside the fact the outside looks kind of sovietic, the inside and the functionnality of the airport are for me ok. The only thing wich really need a change are more custom officer to avoid long queues. And on a functionnal aspect, all star alliance airlines should be in the same pier to ease connecting flight and reduce connecting time. SN is pushing a lot in that sense.

b720
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by b720 »

crew1990 wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 11:28 I tend to agree as well. Beside the fact the outside looks kind of sovietic, the inside and the functionnality of the airport are for me ok. The only thing wich really need a change are more custom officer to avoid long queues. And on a functionnal aspect, all star alliance airlines should be in the same pier to ease connecting flight and reduce connecting time. SN is pushing a lot in that sense.
Lines are fine.. as long as the machines are working..security is usually fine as well.. more and more resto available in both terminals. Lounges are more than Ok ..
Compared to other airports in the vicinity, I don’t think that we can complain much. CDG AMS can be a disaster..FRA walking KMs through from terminal to terminal is nightmare ..not even mentioning LHR!! I think that BRU is a gem in comparison.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by sn26567 »

JOVAN2 wrote: 11 Dec 2022, 11:02
Conti764 wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 23:36
JOVAN2 wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 19:06 In de TIJD newspaper today, the CEO of SN complaints about the political unwillingness to connect BRU with the HST-network.

In times where short haul flights (less than 500km) are under pressure to be cancelled ( forbidden) it is impossible to understand.

We had lots of incompetent Ministers of Mobility in the last 20 years and perhaps the present one beats all the others.

Why is the Thalys and the ICE (and the TGV) not stopping at BRU ?

We have the Diabolo system there which allows to make a stop at BRU underground station to go in any directiona : Amsterdam,Rotterdam, Paris, Lille, Aachen, Cologne, Frankfurt etc. It would give BRU a central hub and an unique position to serve and attract PAX from the Benelux, Western Germany and Paris area.

The railway system is there, new investments would be minimal.

In present times people, even business travellers would certainly more easily choose for the train and high speed trains if they make it attractive, convenient, regular, punctual etc...

I never understood why this never was realized ?

Even Arnaud Feist CEO of BRU has many times brought the issue up with SNCB and with Political leaders, but without success.

Is there refusal from France ? Holland ???
The NMBS holds only 30% of Thalys shares, ICE is German, TGV French.

BRU doesn't have an ideal position to Brussels. Having high speed trains halt at the airport is quite a detour for those company's and only worth the extra time if demand is high enough.
As other trains can stop at BRU, I do not see a reason why Thaliys or ICE could not stop.

Other people, more competent in the matter than you and me

SN-CEO Gerber says in de TIJD of Saturday 10 December 2022. (free translation)

Question : But why don't you want to cancel the short flights like the SN flights between BRU and Paris ??
Answer " We fly short haul only if there is no other choice. And it could be different if we have an HSL connection.
I worked with LH in collaboration with Deusche Bahn, and we could cancel all flights between Frankfurt and Cologne.as soon as ther was aHST connection between both airports.
Travellers from Paris, going to Africa cannot take the HST. They have to transfer with all their bags in Brussels-Midi (station)
It is a shameu that BRU is not seved by the HST. In the heart of Europe we have people in command who say they love trains, but they make it impossible one way or another."


Question Why is it not possible to make the Thalys or ICE stop in Zaventem ,
Answer: " You should ask the Minister (Gilkinet). I do not undersrand at all. It is a matter of costs and priorities. We are ready to talk aabout everything.

And the interview continues: Gerber says SN makes no money on the short haul.
He makes it clear that the French Railways do not like the idea..... I we all collaborate, we coyuld make big progress.

Feist had a similar comment some months ago.

So clearly the political class plays a dirty role in this.

Remember, it was also politicians who wanted, years ago to have aThalys connection between Ostend- Ghent and Paris !!
There were avaerage 6 Passengers a days boarding the Thalys in Ostend. Still they kept the stop there for many years....
It will not happen. The Eurostar (new name of the Group) will not stop at Brussels Airport. Their CEO Gwendoline Cazenave said yesterday at the press conference presenting the new Eurostar-Thalys integration that the airport is not on a high-speed line and is well connected to Brussels Midi and their customers are satisfied with that situation..
André
ex Sabena #26567

JOVAN2
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by JOVAN2 »

sn26567 wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 15:00
JOVAN2 wrote: 11 Dec 2022, 11:02
Conti764 wrote: 10 Dec 2022, 23:36

The NMBS holds only 30% of Thalys shares, ICE is German, TGV French.

BRU doesn't have an ideal position to Brussels. Having high speed trains halt at the airport is quite a detour for those company's and only worth the extra time if demand is high enough.
As other trains can stop at BRU, I do not see a reason why Thaliys or ICE could not stop.

Other people, more competent in the matter than you and me

SN-CEO Gerber says in de TIJD of Saturday 10 December 2022. (free translation)

Question : But why don't you want to cancel the short flights like the SN flights between BRU and Paris ??
Answer " We fly short haul only if there is no other choice. And it could be different if we have an HSL connection.
I worked with LH in collaboration with Deusche Bahn, and we could cancel all flights between Frankfurt and Cologne.as soon as ther was aHST connection between both airports.
Travellers from Paris, going to Africa cannot take the HST. They have to transfer with all their bags in Brussels-Midi (station)
It is a shameu that BRU is not seved by the HST. In the heart of Europe we have people in command who say they love trains, but they make it impossible one way or another."


Question Why is it not possible to make the Thalys or ICE stop in Zaventem ,
Answer: " You should ask the Minister (Gilkinet). I do not undersrand at all. It is a matter of costs and priorities. We are ready to talk aabout everything.

And the interview continues: Gerber says SN makes no money on the short haul.
He makes it clear that the French Railways do not like the idea..... I we all collaborate, we coyuld make big progress.

Feist had a similar comment some months ago.

So clearly the political class plays a dirty role in this.

Remember, it was also politicians who wanted, years ago to have aThalys connection between Ostend- Ghent and Paris !!
There were avaerage 6 Passengers a days boarding the Thalys in Ostend. Still they kept the stop there for many years....
It will not happen. The Eurostar (new name of the Group) will not stop at Brussels Airport. Their CEO Gwendoline Cazenave said yesterday at the press conference presenting the new Eurostar-Thalys integration that the airport is not on a high-speed line and is well connected to Brussels Midi and their customers are satisfied with that situation..
Thanks for the information.
But I do not find the passage about the "BRU stopo" (or non-stop) in the press release.

Talking about "their customers":
If you mean BRU Airport (Mr. Feist) and BRUSSELS Airlines (Mr. Gerber) , they are clearly UNHAPPY about the airport NOT being connected by HST. . See interviews in DE TIJD. I hope they continue lobbying and put pressure.

Knowing that soon short haul flights like CDG-BRU will be part of the past,
and knowing that BRU and SN depend largely on African traffic from Paris and France to justify their African network
knowing that transferring from train-to-train in Brux-Midi, where elevators and escalators are more out of order than working well.
knowing that the train-infrastructure at BRU is there to allow a Thalys (or Eurostar) stop , for a few minutes like in AMS Train station.

Knowing all this one can only call it an uncommercial and un-logical decision.

NMBS/SNCB has had 10 very low-level CEO's in the last 25 years, so a long-term and world-vision like in AMS & with the NS Dutch Railways, is not in their brains..

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luchtzak
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by luchtzak »

While looking at the infrastructure, I don't like the walkway towards the airport terminal. The "garage" look at the bus-level is boring, dull and looks messy.

Perhaps the smokers just next to the entrance doors could also be moved to a smokers area?

The drop-off is simply to use, yet cars are (illegally) parked/stationed outside that area, disturbing other traffic and pedestrians.

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Atlantis »

luchtzak wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 22:19 While looking at the infrastructure, I don't like the walkway towards the airport terminal. The "garage" look at the bus-level is boring, dull and looks messy.

Perhaps the smokers just next to the entrance doors could also be moved to a smokers area?

The drop-off is simply to use, yet cars are (illegally) parked/stationed outside that area, disturbing other traffic and pedestrians.
Nobody could have foreseen the attacks on the airport years ago. As many times said, this is temporary.
People forget that in 1 day you can change the whole infrastructure. Well yeah, if you play with lego you can.

For each change you need permission of the administration. We all know how long it takes in Belgium. Do you think BRU likes this situation?? Not at all. The only thing, just like with the HST, is to push them as long as needed.

A bit more patience please

PttU
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by PttU »

JOVAN2 wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 18:20
sn26567 wrote: 25 Jan 2023, 15:00
It will not happen. The Eurostar (new name of the Group) will not stop at Brussels Airport. Their CEO Gwendoline Cazenave said yesterday at the press conference presenting the new Eurostar-Thalys integration that the airport is not on a high-speed line and is well connected to Brussels Midi and their customers are satisfied with that situation..
Thanks for the information.
But I do not find the passage about the "BRU stopo" (or non-stop) in the press release.

Talking about "their customers":
If you mean BRU Airport (Mr. Feist) and BRUSSELS Airlines (Mr. Gerber) , they are clearly UNHAPPY about the airport NOT being connected by HST. . See interviews in DE TIJD. I hope they continue lobbying and put pressure.

Knowing that soon short haul flights like CDG-BRU will be part of the past,
and knowing that BRU and SN depend largely on African traffic from Paris and France to justify their African network
knowing that transferring from train-to-train in Brux-Midi, where elevators and escalators are more out of order than working well.
knowing that the train-infrastructure at BRU is there to allow a Thalys (or Eurostar) stop , for a few minutes like in AMS Train station.

Knowing all this one can only call it an uncommercial and un-logical decision.

NMBS/SNCB has had 10 very low-level CEO's in the last 25 years, so a long-term and world-vision like in AMS & with the NS Dutch Railways, is not in their brains..
Sorry to swear on this forum, but stop being so aviation-centric... When the CEO of the Eurostar group talks about "their customers" of course they don't mean BRU or Brussels airlines, they mean their customers taking the train. And of course they're satisfied with the current situation as only a limited amount of their customers has the airport as their destination.

And short haul flights like CDG-BRU might be a thing of the past soon, but they currently only exist because tickets from CDG to African destinations are cheaper than direct flights from BRU. No-one flies CDG-BRU or BRU-CDG because they live in Brussels and need to be in Paris, or live in Paris and need to be in Brussels.
For the feeding of the African network from the rest of France: the Thalys network stops in Paris, the rest is served by the TGV: different company, so you'll have to transfer at Brussels-South railway station anyway. And that's not even up to the NMBS/SNCB to decide if the TGV should continue to Brussels airport.

The Eurostar group has little to no interest in going to the airport: it takes more time, and it will give them hardly any extra passengers: people flying to BRU from far away and going to a Eurostar-destination would otherwise fly directly to CDG, AMS or LHR, and to Rotterdam, Lille,... I guess there aren't enough passengers to justify the additional time, additional cost,... To RTM they'll be fighting the hourly IC-service.
The NMBS/SNCB already had a decent offering at the airport with trains going to their "hub" in Brussel, and long-distance trains going to other destinations (Hasselt, Antwerp,...), so from that point of view also little incentive.
If Brussels airport (for whatever reason), or Brussels airlines (for connecting passengers) would like a regular high speed train service to stop by the airport, the effort has to come fully from that side. They're the only ones benefiting from it.

I think it's not up to the railway companies to provide better (long-distance) connectivity to the airport. It's up to them to provide better long-distance connectivity in general, but their "hubs" are not at the airports (not even at AMS, FRA,...), so it makes sense their alternative for short-haul flights is based around fast trains going to city-centre stations. And from those city centres, there are a lot of options to get to your final destination, even if that final destination is an airport.

Inquirer
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Inquirer »

In all fairness Atlantis, but this 'temporary' entrance has now been in use for more than 6 years.
How much more patience are they asking for? ? ?

Surely they can come up with something better in that time, even is just temporary too?
Just painting the whole bus garage in bright white and having more light there would already make the feel better than now. They just don't try!
Compare to all the work done on constantly turning over the shops or putting cars at the most inconventient places inside the terminal... pfft

I think it is eye watering to have all 20 or so million passengers at Brussels airport enter through a single sliding glass door from what indeed looks like a shabby garage building and have them take one of the two jampacked escalators to reach check in! Is this even safe? If ever that door gets blocked for some reason, BRU is effectively shut?!

An entrance from the garage to any office building or a medium sized shopping mall like Waasland shopping looks nicer than the entrance at BRU, so surely they must have had some ideas over the past 6 years to improve on it. What is holding up even cosmetic tricks? The refusal to spend any money which doesnt lead to ancillary sales?

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Atlantis »

Many years ago there was the launch of a project with self driving small busses at the airport. This for pax and BRU employees (from the remote parkings to the terminal). This was in collaboration with The Netherlands. This project is recently cancelled as too complex.

longwings
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by longwings »

Atlantis wrote: 26 Jan 2023, 10:35A bit more patience please
I'd be willing to believe "more patience" is all it takes if the car rental garage hadn't been an embarrassing disaster for over 20 years! After all, it is temporary too, if we are to believe the very faded sign barely hanging on still at the entrance of the garage.

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