Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by sn26567 » 30 Dec 2016, 18:33

Poland’s Foreign Ministry sends note of protest to Russia over Smolensk plane crash

Poland’s Foreign Ministry has sent a note of protest to Russia demanding to hand over without delay the recordings from the cockpit of the Tupolev-154M plane that crashed near the western Russian city of Smolensk in 2010, the Polish Press Agency said on Wednesday.

"On December 27, Poland’s Embassy in Moscow sent a note to the Russian side. Poland’s Foreign Ministry requests to hand over without delay the excerpts of transcript, earlier unknown to Poland, of conversations recorded in the cockpit of the presidential Tu-154 airliner just a few seconds before the crash near Smolensk in 2010," the news agency said, explaining the request stemmed from Russian President Vladimir Putin’s words at his annual news conference on December 23.

Besides, the foreign ministry again filed a request to hand the plane debris to Poland.

Earlier on Wednesday, Russia’s Embassy in Warsaw had dismissed as ungrounded the demands of Poland’s National Defense Ministry to hand over the alleged new recordings from the cockpit of Poland’s Tu-154M plane. The embassy published a statement on its website in comments to the Polish Defense Ministry’s appeal.

"In his comments on the Smolensk plane crash, the Russian president very clearly put all the emphasis," the statement reads. "The picture of the tragedy was reconstructed by the Interstate Aviation Committee (IAC) and Polish State Commission on Aircraft Accidents Investigation. It is well-known, and to Poland, too. Actually, it is not a secret that the presence of unauthorized persons in the cockpit, who were exerting pressure on the pilots in that critical moment, was one of the disastrous factors."

"There are no grounds for claims that Russia allegedly has a new and earlier unknown recording of talks from the cockpit that the Polish side is requesting now. There are only the recordings that both the Interstate Aviation Committee and the Polish commission had during the investigation of the crash," the embassy said.

The transcripts of conversations between the pilots have been earlier published officially by the Polish side and local mass media outlets and can be easily found on the internet, it said, adding that "there is nothing new."

"Concerning the handing over the debris of the plane to the Polish side, there is no sense in explaining one more time why Russian investigators need the debris while the investigation is still underway," the embassy said, stressing that the Polish investigators can come to Russia at any time.

The crash of the Tupolev-154M servicing the flights of Polish top state officials that occurred a few hundred meters away from the runway of the Northern airdrome in Smolensk on April 10, 2010, claimed the lives of all the 96 people aboard, including the then President Lech Kaczynski, his wife, and a host of Polish military and civilian officials. Six years after the tragic accident, both Polish attorneys and their Russian counterparts continue the investigations.

Source: Russian Aviation

When will the current Polish Government understand that the case is closed? It wants to reopen it only for domestic political purposes!
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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by sn26567 » 03 Apr 2017, 18:17

Poland suspects Russian air controllers of provoking Kaczynski’s plane crash

Three Russian nationals, who had controlled in 2010 the flight of then President of Poland Lech Kaczynski’s plane, are suspected of intended provoking the air crash, Polish newspaper Rzeczpospolita reported Monday (April 3, 2017) citing the country’s Deputy Prosecutor General Marek Pasionek.

Two air traffic controllers and “a third person”, who was in a flight control center at the moment of the fatal crash, are among suspects, the newspaper reports.

Spokesman of Russian President Dmitry Peskov commented on this statement saying that “it is impossible to accept such findings.”

Source: Russian Aviation
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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by Passenger » 03 Apr 2017, 22:27

sn26567 wrote:
03 Apr 2017, 18:17
Poland suspects Russian air controllers of provoking Kaczynski’s plane crash
Three Russian nationals, who had controlled in 2010 the flight of then President of Poland Lech Kaczynski’s plane, are suspected of intended provoking the air crash, Polish newspaper Rzeczpospolita reported Monday (April 3, 2017) citing the country’s Deputy Prosecutor General Marek Pasionek. Two air traffic controllers and “a third person”, who was in a flight control center at the moment of the fatal crash, are among suspects, the newspaper reports. Spokesman of Russian President Dmitry Peskov commented on this statement saying that “it is impossible to accept such findings.”
Source: Russian Aviation
Blame the Russians? Apparently that Polish prosecutor hasn't read the final technical report yet. Russian ATC are indeed mentionned there, but not as culprits. Final report on The Aviation Herald:

...A Polish Aviation Accident Investigation Commission have released their final report in Polish, which agrees with the factual findings of the Russian report. The Polish commission concluded the probable cause of the crash was: The descent below minimum descent altitude (MDA), with an excessive rate of descent, in atmospheric conditions which prevented visual contact with the runway. The decision to go-around was taken too late. This led to collision with terrain, the destruction of the left wing, consequently loss of control and loss of the aircraft.

Contributing factors were:
- unverified high barometric altimeter setting during a non-precision approach
- lack of reaction to TAWS warnings
- attempt to go around by pressing TOGA, which however was not armed
- tower ATC attempting to talk the aircraft down although the aircraft's position was outside approach limits, the ATC instructions re-inforcing the crew's belief they were conducting a proper approach
- failure of tower to inform the crew about being too low and instructing the crew to maintain level flight too late
- inappropriate/insufficient training of the crew on TU-154M aircraft

Unfavourable factors were:
- improper crew cooperation causing excessive load on the commander during the last phase of flight
- inadequate flight preparation
- insufficient knowledge of functions and limits of their aircraft by the crew
- improper monitoring of each other by all flight crew members, lack of corrective actions to mistakes
- incorrect selection of crew to perform the flight, íncorrect task assignment to crew members
- incorrect supervision of flight crew training
- the operator's failure to set criteria for stabilised approach, runway and environmental requirements for various approach types, and crew cooperation
- the operator's failure to ensure practical experience, especially at the Smolensk North aerodrome

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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by sn26567 » 03 Apr 2017, 22:35

The problem is that the current Polish government and its hidden chief Jaroslaw Kaczynski want absolutely to find a culprit other than his brother Lech, the president who was killed in the crash and who wanted at all costs to land in Smolensk to commemorate the Katyn massacre of Polish officers by the Red Army during WWII. The current Polish Government even managed to involve the President of the European Council Donald Tusk...
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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by sn26567 » 11 Apr 2017, 11:56

The plane that crashed and killed Poland's president and 95 others in 2010 probably disintegrated in mid-air when explosives were detonated on board, a Polish government commission said on Monday - a theory that a member of a previous commission dismissed as "propaganda".

"Much indicates that on April 10, 2010, an explosion took place on board of the government Tupolev plane," said the commentary accompanying video material presented by the commission on Monday. "As a result of the conducted experiments, we can say that the most likely cause of the explosion was a thermobaric charge initiating a strong shockwave."

But a member of the previous Polish official commission to investigate the Smolensk crash, Maciej Lasek, dismissed the findings published on Monday as "illusions presented by people who had never investigated air crashes before."

Two contradictory reports thus. Whom to believe?

More from Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-polan ... SKBN17C20T

The new report on video [Polish] :
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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by Passenger » 11 Apr 2017, 12:48

sn26567 wrote:
11 Apr 2017, 11:56
Two contradictory reports thus. Whom to believe?
When the choice is between a crash report from aviators (including the CAA) and a crash report from politicians, I don't think ther can be little doubt.

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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by sn-remember » 11 Apr 2017, 15:27

In the mind of ordinary Polish people, in a perfect world, there also should be little doubt ... But I fear that the political agenda in Warsaw dictates otherwise.
And any conclusion coming from Russia whatever the guarantees shall be tainted with suspicion .. that's the way it goes these days, and not only in Poland unfortunately.

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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by sn26567 » 11 Aug 2017, 11:55

Russian investigators disagree with Poland's claims about signs of explosion on Tu-154M

Poland’s experts have voiced incomprehensible claims concerning some signs of an explosion on the fragments of the Polish presidential Tu-154M plane, which crashed near the Russian city of Smolensk in 2010, Russian Investigative Committee spokesperson Svetlana Petrenko said - TASS reported.

"It is absolutely unclear what the new conclusions drawn by the Polish experts are based on," she said. "Right after the crash, a ballistic test and a blast assessment study were conducted, proving that the aircraft had not been affected by any explosives," Petrenko pointed out. "At the same time, Polish experts, including members of the new investigation commission, have not conducted any examinations of the aircraft fragments since 2014," she added.

According to the Russian Investigative Committee’s spokesperson, in 2011, after assessing all the available information, both Russian and Polish experts came to the conclusion that the crash was caused by the aircraft’s encounter with a birch tree. "The plane had remained intact until it bumped into the birch tree," Petrenko stressed adding that the aircraft fragments were kept in Russia as material evidence in the Investigative Committee’s criminal investigation.

Poland’s government sub-commission investigating into the Polish presidential plane crash earlier claimed to have found some signs of an explosion on the aircraft’s left wing.

"The destroyed left wing of the Tu-154M bears signs of an explosion," the sub-commission's press service said in a statement commenting on its recent meeting held on July 25.

However, the statement does not elaborate whether any traces of explosives had been detected, nor does it make any assumptions as to what could have caused the possible explosion.

Source: Russian Aviation
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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by sn26567 » 16 Apr 2018, 16:46

Poland has just published its own report on the Polish Air Force Tu-154 crash in Smolensk, in which the President was killed together with 95 other people. Not surprisingly, the Polish report is very different from the official one.

The official report (made by the Russians according to international law and initially approved by a Polish Committee under the previous government) concluded on pilot errors triggered by the will of the President to land at all costs and the presence of the Commander of the Polish Air Force in the cockpit.

The Polish report says the pilots made no errors and attributes the crash to explosions in the left wing.

http://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/ ... ssian-one/
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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by sn-remember » 16 Apr 2018, 21:10

Oh well ... this report was already written by the surviving brother the day after the funeral ..
Well Poland is making themselves ridiculous (me think) .. and I like this country having many friends there !

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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by sn26567 » 16 Apr 2018, 22:18

sn-remember wrote:
16 Apr 2018, 21:10
Oh well ... this report was already written by the surviving brother the day after the funeral ..
Well Poland is making themselves ridiculous (me think) .. and I like this country having many friends there !
Read the full report (60 pages with many illustrations): it has a very scientific look. But the original Russian report (with the cooperation of the previous Polish government) is not less scientific!
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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by sn-remember » 17 Apr 2018, 11:28

Of course they would not make it "less scientific" than the previous one ;-) No thank you, I will not read the full report, as I stated, i had glimpses of the best pages written by the surviving brother the day after the funeral. It's sufficient to me ...

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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by Poiu » 17 Apr 2018, 13:49

sn26567 wrote:
16 Apr 2018, 22:18
Read the full report (60 pages with many illustrations): it has a very scientific look. But the original Russian report (with the cooperation of the previous Polish government) is not less scientific!
It may have a scientific look, but....
I only read the part about ATC and that doesn’t make much sense.

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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by Passenger » 17 Apr 2018, 19:48

sn26567 wrote:
16 Apr 2018, 16:46
Poland has just published its own report on the Polish Air Force Tu-154 crash in Smolensk, in which the President was killed together with 95 other people. Not surprisingly, the Polish report is very different from the official one.

The official report (made by the Russians according to international law and initially approved by a Polish Committee under the previous government) concluded on pilot errors triggered by the will of the President to land at all costs and the presence of the Commander of the Polish Air Force in the cockpit.

The Polish report says the pilots made no errors and attributes the crash to explosions in the left wing.

http://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/ ... ssian-one/
For the relatives of the victims, it's a world of difference: error from the crew leads to indemnity, aircraft failure ("explosion in the left wing") not.

And even without the indemnity rules for civil aviation accidents, the court will surely condemn the Polish Air Force when the international report is accepted.

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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by convair » 17 Apr 2018, 20:26

Passenger wrote:
17 Apr 2018, 19:48
sn26567 wrote:
16 Apr 2018, 16:46
Poland has just published its own report on the Polish Air Force Tu-154 crash in Smolensk, in which the President was killed together with 95 other people. Not surprisingly, the Polish report is very different from the official one.

The official report (made by the Russians according to international law and initially approved by a Polish Committee under the previous government) concluded on pilot errors triggered by the will of the President to land at all costs and the presence of the Commander of the Polish Air Force in the cockpit.

The Polish report says the pilots made no errors and attributes the crash to explosions in the left wing.

http://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/ ... ssian-one/
For the relatives of the victims, it's a world of difference: error from the crew leads to indemnity, aircraft failure ("explosion in the left wing") not.

And even without the indemnity rules for civil aviation accidents, the court will surely condemn the Polish Air Force when the international report is accepted.
It was not a civil aviation flight, afaik. I don't know if the same rules apply for indemnities.

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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by jan_olieslagers » 17 Apr 2018, 20:41

the court will surely condemn
* surely? never, NEVER presume on court findings - judges like to judge independently, and rightly so

* THE court, you say? Which court, then? Polish or Russian? It seems clear to me that either party will deem the other's justice incompetent. They will find their arguments, either side, just as impressive legally as the technical points mentioned.

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Re: Plane carrying Polish president crashed near Smolensk airp't

Post by Passenger » 17 Apr 2018, 21:56

jan_olieslagers wrote:
17 Apr 2018, 20:41
the court will surely condemn
* surely? never, NEVER presume on court findings - judges like to judge independently, and rightly so

* THE court, you say? Which court, then? Polish or Russian? It seems clear to me that either party will deem the other's justice incompetent. They will find their arguments, either side, just as impressive legally as the technical points mentioned.
It would be great if you would quote like almost all people here quote. So please sir: do not delete the name of the initial poster, and do not delete part of phrases to suggest something else then what was written.

Hence: I did not say "the court will surely condemn". I said: "and even without the indemnity rules for civil aviation accidents, the court will surely condemn the Polish Air Force when the international report is accepted". Repeat: when the international report is accepted. Poland is a EU member state, so their legal system has to be more or less the same as in Belgium.

Furthermore, this is a forum and not a court room. So it's my full right to presume whatever I want here on forthcoming court findings.

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