Troubles at Brussels Airlines ? Part II

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Johan23
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Post by Johan23 »

Ab-initio's start at Ryanair as well...

fcw
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Post by fcw »

LX-LGX wrote:
Typical union desinformation. ...
Brussels Airlines cares about their passengers, and if one or other employee damages pax, the company will pay. That is why most people like me (those who are buying the tickets) still prefer Brussels Airlines to Easyjet....[/i]
So you blame others for desinformation while you are talking rubbish yourself!!! EasyJet does provide stranded passengers with an hotel. They have up to 5 stanby aircrafts with crew at the airport on standby to cover the unexpected! Last year I flew in a B747 easy leased because they were short of crew on the A319 and could not cover all flights themselves.

As for your statement that not many people leave:
How many Airbus pilots you think BruAir will have left if Easy and/or Jet Airways open a crew base in BRU?

LX-LGX
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Post by LX-LGX »

fcw wrote:
So you blame others for desinformation while you are talking rubbish yourself!!! EasyJet does provide stranded passengers with an hotel. They have up to 5 stanby aircrafts with crew at the airport on standby to cover the unexpected! Last year I flew in a B747 easy leased because they were short of crew on the A319 and could not cover all flights themselves.
Easyjet indeed helps pax as the law obliges them do so = if the pax are stranded because of Easyjet's own error/problem/cause, or in case of bad weather. But is Easyjet rebooking pax for free if it's their fault? When a passenger is too late at Brussels Airlines check-in, he is rebooked for free on the next SN-flight. I'm sure about this, as this has happened to me.

Ryanair drops the pax in the middle of nowwhere when weather conditions make the normal route impossible, even if EU-Regulation 261/2004 states that the flight then must continue at the earliest possibility.

Television programs like Airport show the cynism from LCC's staff when a passenger arrives too late at the desk, even when he was on time at the end of the queue. "Sorry, the gate is closed, you have to buy a new ticket".

It's this difference in customer relations why Brussels Airlines is better.

fcw wrote:
As for your statement that not many people leave: How many Airbus pilots you think BruAir will have left if Easy and/or Jet Airways open a crew base in BRU?
I haven't said that not many people leave at Brussels Airlines: I've only said that the Belgian Labour Law allow people to leave the company. Could well be that many will leave. But do you think it will take long before their seats are filled up?

ttubbie
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Post by ttubbie »

All these discussions are very well, but I am supposed to fly BruAir this
Saturday 5 May.

Does anyone on this board have the courtesy to tell me latest next Friday if the pilots will be working on 5 May ?

foxtrot_lima_yankee
Posts: 145
Joined: 04 Nov 2005, 00:00

Post by foxtrot_lima_yankee »

I think Ryanair is safer. Their safety records are way better than that of Belgian carriers in general, but they operate 1000s of flights everyday, so it is normal they have some incidents happening here and there. It is safer to hire well-qualified pilots, look for instance at TNT's recent accident, landing the aircraft next to the runway,... that is a matter of lack of experience.
And the incidents at Ryanair are almost all technical issues, not pilots with lack of experience causing trouble.

foxtrot_lima_yankee
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Post by foxtrot_lima_yankee »

Dear LX,

As you say, Easyjet and Ryanair have dropped passengers in the past.
But do not forget that these companies operate short-haul exclusively.

Bru.air dropped passengers of a long-haul flight. That s something else already, don t you think? When you operate long-haul and pax pay a full price, they also have the right to get a full service.

When you travel Ryanair, or Easyjet, you know that there is little to expect for the little price you pay. And be sure that they will refund your ticket and hotel room if a mechanical problem leaves you on the ground.

Bru.air will not rebook you on the next flight if you miss it, that is false information. When check-ins close, the flight is closed, there is data to process, passenger lists have to be printed. No carrier will do such thing as give a fast-pass in order to have the pax run to the aircraft. Rebooking is also out of question. If you re late, it s your fault. Imagine all the pax doing that at the same time.

You are talking about exceptions.

But this ain t bout comparing carriers, this is about the problems Bru.air is facing at this point.

foxtrot_lima_yankee
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Post by foxtrot_lima_yankee »

Johan23 wrote:
Ab-initio's start at Ryanair as well...

Yes it's true, but be ready to pay your 737 type-rating yourself and to have a filled flight log, because you won t be entering with your 300TT you graduate with. Count at least 1000TT.

As they say, there are 2 piles of applications on airliner's recruiter's desk: one with the applications that are gonna be thrown to the garbage, the other one with the applications worth being looked at(incl.type-rating/min.1000TT).

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blackhawk
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Post by blackhawk »

So why can Eayjet and other LCC's (not Ryanair) make money although their low fairs and b.air can't? Is this because of a high cost-structure or what?

LX-LGX
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Post by LX-LGX »

foxtrot_lima_yankee wrote:
Bru.air dropped passengers of a long-haul flight. That s something else already, don t you think? When you operate long-haul and pax pay a full price, they also have the right to get a full service
It is really unbelievable that you, as Bru-Air's staff, makes such remarks. I suggest you step out of your cockpit and start talking to those from your own company who are not as good qualified and skilled as you, but who at least have more empathy with their airline. You should spend some time at the check-in counters, at the information desk, ticket delivery office, sales, etc.: contrary to your remark, it is not Bru-Air's policy to drop passengers. The incident in Dakar was a one time incident, caused by a local employee, and Bru-Air immediately has taken up responsability: apologies and financial indemnity. Your remark about Dakar really is unfair against your colluegues who do care about passengers.
foxtrot_lima_yankee wrote:
Bru.air will not rebook you on the next flight if you miss it, that is false information. When check-ins close, the flight is closed, there is data to process, passenger lists have to be printed. No carrier will do such thing as give a fast-pass in order to have the pax run to the aircraft. Rebooking is also out of question. If you re late, it s your fault. Imagine all the pax doing that at the same time. You are talking about exceptions.
Repeat: you really don't know what is going on outside the cockpit. Bru-Air will rebook a passenger who is too late on the next flight, if there's availability off course. If there are many seats left, we (= the passengers) may check-in immediately. If the flight is quite full, we get the status of stand-bye and we have to wait at the check-in desk. And that is the difference betweeen Ryanair and Bru-Air: if a pax is too late, check-in staff at Ryanair will smile because they're going to sell a new ticket. Check-in staff at Bru-Air will say "so sorry", then check availability on the next flight, and then send pax to the ticketing desk for a sticker for the next flight.
foxtrot_lima_yankee wrote: When check-ins close, the flight is closed, there is data to process, passenger lists have to be printed. No carrier will do such thing as give a fast-pass in order to have the pax run to the aircraft.
I suggest you go your sales department, and ask for the November 2006 issue from Test-Aankoop / Test-Achats. The story is on page 55.

LJ
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Post by LJ »

blackhawk wrote:So why can Eayjet and other LCC's (not Ryanair) make money although their low fairs and b.air can't? Is this because of a high cost-structure or what?
It's because easyJet and Ryanair have less overhead and don't do the things which LX-LGX is referring to... LCC's create a lot of revenue from pax not turning up for their flight...unlike airlines like Bru-Air who, provide full sevice for a low price (even if they don't have to). In the end this is unsustainable (which everyone with a marketing or finance degree knows) but some companies never learn..... The result is usually squeezing the staff (you have to make money one way).....but then they forget that staff is the biggest asset they have.

Another reason why easyJet and Ryanair make a lot of money is the fact they've gotten their airplanes virtually for free. The deal easyJet has done with Airbus and Ryanair with Boeing generate a lot of EUR these days and Bru-Air will never be able to match this. Add to this the lucrative deals tehse airlines conclude with the airports and you know why the LCC's will always win if you start to compete on price.

Cartman
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Post by Cartman »

foxtrot_lima_yankee wrote:Dear LX,
Bru.air will not rebook you on the next flight if you miss it, that is false information. When check-ins close, the flight is closed, there is data to process, passenger lists have to be printed. No carrier will do such thing as give a fast-pass in order to have the pax run to the aircraft. Rebooking is also out of question. If you re late, it s your fault. Imagine all the pax doing that at the same time.
When was the last time you flew as a passenger with SN? You obviuosly never heard of an "LMC passenger". Please document on passenger handling procedures before making such statements.
I'm in love with my lust, burning angelwings to dust, I wish I had your angel tonight...
www.myrre.be

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blackhawk
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Post by blackhawk »

Bij luchtvaartmaatschappij Brussels Airlines komen er ten vroegste op 2 mei acties. Er werd wel een actieaanzegging voor de piloten ingediend die vandaag afloopt, maar de vakbonden wachten de uitslag van een referendum over de cao voor de piloten af.

http://www.standaard.be/Artikel/Detail. ... 042007_056

They have filed a request to strike.

website-info
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Joined: 26 Sep 2003, 00:00

Post by website-info »

foxtrot_lima_yankee wrote: foxtrot_lima_yankee wrote:
And if those Avro' s are all leased, why can t they get rid of them and lease some real money-makers like the new generation of Embraer's?


Perhaps because carefully prepared studies proved that SN is currently better off with the ARJ?


THEN WHERE IS BRU AIR'S PROFITABILITY??
Have a look at the airport, newly designed desks, lights etc, new crew uniforms and fancy crew bags, oh and more company cars for original DAT ops staff and nice new flashy flat screens........ ah well I guess you can always put it on ebay !

T

brusselsairlinesfan
Posts: 881
Joined: 29 Mar 2007, 14:44

Post by brusselsairlinesfan »

Hey,

Taken from "Le Soir" newspaper :

Pas d'action chez Brussels Airlines
lundi 30.04.2007, 16:33
La compagnie aérienne Brussels Airlines ne sera pas secouée par des mouvements sociaux avant le 2 mai. Si le préavis de grève couvrant les pilotes arrive à échéance ce lundi, les syndicats préfèrent en effet attendre les résultats du référendum relatif à la nouvelle convention collective de travail, a indiqué un responsable de la FGTB.

So no action until results of the negociation currently in progress... hope they will reach an agreement...

Cheers,

Vincent ("Ultra" brussels airlines fan from Paris - France)

fcw
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Post by fcw »

LX-LGX wrote:
foxtrot_lima_yankee wrote:
office, sales, etc.: contrary to your remark, it is not Bru-Air's policy to drop passengers. The incident in Dakar was a one time incident, caused by a local employee, and Bru-Air immediately has taken up responsability: apologies and financial indemnity.
foxtrot_lima_yankee wrote:
Bru.air will not rebook you on the next flight if you miss it, that is false information. When check-ins close, the flight is closed, there is data to process, passenger lists have to be printed. No carrier will do such thing as give a fast-pass in order to have the pax run to the aircraft. Rebooking is also out of question. If you re late, it s your fault. Imagine all the pax doing that at the same time. You are talking about exceptions.
Repeat: you really don't know what is going on outside the cockpit. Bru-Air will rebook a passenger who is too late on the next flight, if there's availability off course. If there are many seats left, we (= the passengers) may check-in immediately. If the flight is quite full, we get the status of stand-bye and we have to wait at the check-in desk. And that is the difference betweeen Ryanair and Bru-Air: if a pax is too late, check-in staff at Ryanair will smile because they're going to sell a new ticket. Check-in staff at Bru-Air will say "so sorry", then check availability on the next flight, and then send pax to the ticketing desk for a sticker for the next flight.
LX, I can tell you different story about BruAir, I booked a flight to BRS leaving BRU in the morning and comming back the same afternoon. BruAir cancelled the fllight did NOT call me, when I arrived at the airport, I was told I was rebooked on the afternoon flight; I explained I had to be in BRS for the day and going up and down on the same plane, and be there for 30 min, would not help me and would not be possible either; I asked to be booked the next day out in the morning back in the afternoon, the answer was: NOT possible because the fare you originally paid is not available on this flight. I could if I paid the difference in price. I was never offered the compensation for a cancelled flight. When I asked for it a booking the next day was suddenly possible IF I dropped the compensation.
On another occasion I arrived 10 min prior to the flight the gate due to congestion at security and I was told the flight was closed because a bus had to bring the passengers to the aeroplane and had left ...
I did not write to Test Achat, but I could have

Robertcarion

Post by Robertcarion »

foxtrot_lima_yankee wrote:I think Ryanair is safer. Their safety records are way better than that of Belgian carriers in general
EXCUSE ME!!!!!! I don't think u are up to date on the numerous high and fast approaches made by some Ryanair crews. Check the Flight International magazine then we talk about the safer Ryanair attitude you cherish so much.

foxtrot_lima_yankee
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Post by foxtrot_lima_yankee »

Many people here seem to forget that Bru.air and SN Brussels are different companies.
Bru.air will not rebook your B.Light ticket. Forget that, it is clearly stated in their policies. I know that SN Brussels rebooked you if you missed a flight.
They are not "passionate about you" anymore...

I think the greatest problem on the Bru.air profitability is its uneconomical fleet of Avro's.
Operating almost all short-haul on Avro's, even B.Light flights, how could that possibly be profitable? Avro's can be profitable on all-business flights like VLM is starting to do. Or maybe in Africa as STOL (Short take-off & landing) aircraft.

A 112 seat Bae 146-300 a bit more than 1000gal/hour.
A 185-seat B-737-800 burns a bit less than 1000gal/hour

Acquisition costs of the Bae is much lower than that of the B737 but economics on a long run are way better.

foxtrot_lima_yankee
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Post by foxtrot_lima_yankee »

Robertcarion wrote:
EXCUSE ME!!!!!! I don't think u are up to date on the numerous high and fast approaches made by some Ryanair crews. Check the Flight International magazine then we talk about the safer Ryanair attitude you cherish so much.



Flight International 17-23 April 2007 p.13

p.13:
Ryanair rushed descents take a dive

Action by Irish low-cost carrier following safety breaches brings dramatic reduction in risk on unstabilised approaches

Ryanair operational flight data monitoring shows the airline has eliminated unstabilised approaches after a run of four high-risk incidents between July 2005 and June 2006(...)Ryanair's chief pilot Capt Ray Conway says a series of internal measures has resulted in a dramatic decline in rushed approaches.
The OFDM has recorded no unstabilised approaches since a warning from the airline's board on 25 September last year.The board (...) issued an unprecedented warning in a letter to pilots.(...)The letter also reminded pilots that go-arounds were considered a "no-blame" decision.(...)
The OFDM has had a generally beneficial effect on operations quality assurance at Ryanair since it was adopted fleet-wide in May 2004.

Are you talking about being up to date?

Is there a OFDM at Bru.air?

Robertcarion

Post by Robertcarion »

I am up to date. Its 2007, this has been published in April, a meer two weeks ago, so your judgment on Ryanair being safer is not valid, sorry. Or maybe u meant it is safer since two weeks ago. Have you seen how long it took them to react to these incidents. Ok now they resolved the problem... I know that.

foxtrot_lima_yankee
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Post by foxtrot_lima_yankee »

Well, since Bru.air is applying 30 minutes turn-arounds, in order to operate one extra flight daily, I m sure some incidents will be happening there too, as pilots try to catch-up some end-of-day delays.

You though can't really compare bru.air with Ryanair, the scale of the operations is not the same.

I feel safer on a Ryanair than on a Bru.air when it comes to pilot experience.

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