Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

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oldblueeyes
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by oldblueeyes »

IAG is much more brutal in degining the strategies of their brands.

Iberia's short haul is clear lower Profile- Iberia Express.
Aer Lingus is clearly communicated a value brand.

Would it be so unlikely that SN would have endet like BCN? P2P LCC Shorthaul (Vueling) combined with low cost long haul( Level)?

And today Qatar Airways are having a blocking minority in IAG and drive their strategy.

How many destinations in Africa would they prefer to serve first and keep the connecting Pax?

They would have been shaping the company also accoribg to their priorities and not the Belgian dreams and aspirations.

Netter is the Grass Grevener somewhere else not it grows fester when you pull it.

fcw
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by fcw »

Conti764 wrote: 19 May 2024, 23:50 Oneworld and IAG would have been the far better option for SN.
I don’t know how many times it needs to be repeated, but IAG wasn’t interested in buying SN, ONLY Luftie was. It was Luftie or bankrupt, FULL STOP!
IAG was close to open an Open Skies (the, more business orientated predecessor of Level) base in Brussels and if SN would have gone tits up, Vueling and Level would certainly have made their way to Brussels. In fact a bit the same as the Eurowings scenario Luftie intended to implement.

DannyVDB
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by DannyVDB »

Hi all,

It seems that OO-SFX is operational again for some days now. So currently 7 Long-haul planes available.

When will OO-SFP become active?

The plane is also in Brussels (according to https://sites.google.com/view/europeanairlinefleets/bel) although I did not 'discover' it when travelling through BRU last week ... ;)

Does anyone know how long it will take for OO-SFD and OO-SFF to come back from Singapore and Manchester respectively? I assume both are C-checks? Those take 1 month at least, no?

Cheers,
Danny

Homo Aeroportus
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

DannyVDB wrote: 20 May 2024, 16:44 Hi all,

It seems that OO-SFX is operational again for some days now. So currently 7 Long-haul planes available.
....

Cheers,
Danny

I count only FIVE (5) active today.
OO-SFB (JFK), -C (KGL), -E (ABJ), -H (FIH) and -J (ACC).

OO-SFX that was to run IAD this morning has been cancelled after a couple of delays.
After having been u/s for 5 days (10-15MAY), X-Ray flew only on 18 and 19.

So currently FIVE long haul services possible.

H.A.

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Atlantis »

Homo Aeroportus wrote: 20 May 2024, 17:45
DannyVDB wrote: 20 May 2024, 16:44 Hi all,

It seems that OO-SFX is operational again for some days now. So currently 7 Long-haul planes available.
....

Cheers,
Danny



I count only FIVE (5) active today.
OO-SFB (JFK), -C (KGL), -E (ABJ), -H (FIH) and -J (ACC).

OO-SFX that was to run IAD this morning has been cancelled after a couple of delays.
After having been u/s for 5 days (10-15MAY), X-Ray flew only on 18 and 19.

So currently FIVE long haul services possible.

H.A.
And SFB is still foreseen to go to the painstshop this month...

DannyVDB
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by DannyVDB »

You are correct,

But I see SFG planned for tomorrow (Kigali-Entebbe), today no flight was planned as far as I can see.

For SFX it is unclear what happened since indeed the past two days it was flying, not today ...

I guess both have 'small' issues that can be solved (in BRU), they should not go for months in maintenance (?).

Tomorrow there are 6 flights planned, so let's see if more will be cancelled or not.

Question remains on SFP: when will it start operations ...?

Cheers,
D

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Short-haul fleet: Airbus A321neo

In an interview with aeroTELEGRAPH, CEO Dorothea Von Boxberg has revealed that Brussels Airlines is considering the Airbus A321neo to enhance its short-haul operations. This aircraft is seen as ideal for popular feeder and tourist routes such as flights from London to Brussels, and to destinations like Nice and Malaga. The A321neo is preferred over the A321XLR due to the latter’s limited cargo capacity, which is crucial for the airline’s operations, particularly for routes to Africa where passengers typically carry significant luggage. https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... expansion/
I think now it's clear, Brussels Airlines doesn't want to use A321XLR.
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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by lumumba »

rwandan-flyer wrote: 20 May 2024, 22:57
Short-haul fleet: Airbus A321neo

In an interview with aeroTELEGRAPH, CEO Dorothea Von Boxberg has revealed that Brussels Airlines is considering the Airbus A321neo to enhance its short-haul operations. This aircraft is seen as ideal for popular feeder and tourist routes such as flights from London to Brussels, and to destinations like Nice and Malaga. The A321neo is preferred over the A321XLR due to the latter’s limited cargo capacity, which is crucial for the airline’s operations, particularly for routes to Africa where passengers typically carry significant luggage. https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... expansion/
I think now it's clear, Brussels Airlines doesn't want to use A321XLR.
But the A321neo because they have a bigger cargo capacity to fly to Africa!
Hasta la victoria siempre.

oldblueeyes
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by oldblueeyes »

A321 NEO would serve European routes with high demand, einher Business or leisure.

And if yould would have read even with deepl or Google Translation the original Interview it was clearly specified why the A321XLR is not an Option- because the Ethnologie traffic Tages an average of 75kg of luggage.

And sorry to say it so straight : there is a difference if a European is travelling to North Africa for 10 days to make a holiday and takes 1 piece of luggage or an african family visits its relatives and feels obliged to bring gifts to 93 "close" relatives.

oldblueeyes
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by oldblueeyes »

oldblueeyes wrote: 21 May 2024, 08:23 A321 NEO would serve European routes with high demand, either Business or leisure.

And if yould would have read even with deepl or Google Translation the original Interview it was clearly specified why the A321XLR is not an Option- because the Ethnologie traffic Tages an average of 75kg of luggage.

And sorry to say it so straight : there is a difference if a European is travelling to North Africa for 10 days to make a holiday and takes 1 piece of luggage or an african family visits its relatives and feels obliged to bring gifts to 93 "close" relatives.

b720
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by b720 »

oldblueeyes wrote: 21 May 2024, 08:23 A321 NEO would serve European routes with high demand, einher Business or leisure.

And if yould would have read even with deepl or Google Translation the original Interview it was clearly specified why the A321XLR is not an Option- because the Ethnologie traffic Tages an average of 75kg of luggage.

And sorry to say it so straight : there is a difference if a European is travelling to North Africa for 10 days to make a holiday and takes 1 piece of luggage or an african family visits its relatives and feels obliged to bring gifts to 93 "close" relatives.
No need to be sorry, it isn’t an insult to shed light on different travel patterns of different people. Italians and Spaniards not living in their countries return from a trip home packed with food and other stuff they bring back, different cultures different travel habits..

fcw
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by fcw »

lumumba wrote: 21 May 2024, 00:38
rwandan-flyer wrote: 20 May 2024, 22:57 Short-haul fleet: Airbus A321neo
I think now it's clear, Brussels Airlines doesn't want to use A321XLR.
But the A321neo because they have a bigger cargo capacity to fly to Africa!
You don’t seem to understand Patrice: an A321neo needs auxiliary fuel tanks in the aft cargo to have the range for Africa! It’s range or cargo capacity but not both.

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Darjeeling
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Darjeeling »

The most logical and economical solution for SN is the A339. It's a logical A333 replacement horse.
The main issues are:
- noise emission
- cargo capacity
In both cases the A339 is able to cover this. They can also go with triangular ops, which is ideal for their business model.
Range isn't an issue at all whatsoever. Should they feel the need to reopen India, fly to Southern Africa or U.S West Coast, the A339 has the legs to do so at full weight.
There is no need to operate the A350 nor the 787 family. Both are too expensive for SN unless they can catch a good lease deal (but the current context doesn't warrant that).
As for the medium-haul, the A220 series would be a must, but can SN afford them ? I doubt it.

Let's first hope that the green parties are kicked off of every regional + federal Gvt, that will already ease the noise emission issue. Which can potentially dangerously harm SN's operations (early banks of arrivals and departures).

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Darjeeling wrote: 21 May 2024, 12:52 The most logical and economical solution for SN is the A339. It's a logical A333 replacement horse.
The main issues are:
- noise emission
- cargo capacity
In both cases the A339 is able to cover this. They can also go with triangular ops, which is ideal for their business model.
Range isn't an issue at all whatsoever. Should they feel the need to reopen India, fly to Southern Africa of U.S West Coast, the A339 has the legs to do so at full weight.
There is no need to operate the A350 nor the 787 family. Both are too expensive for SN unless they can catch a good lease deal (but the current context doesn't warrant that).
As for the medium-haul, the A220 series would be a must, but can SN afford them ? I doubt it.

Let's first hope that the green parties are kicked off of every regional + federal Gvt, that will already ease the noise emission issue. Which can potentially dangerously harm SN's operations (early banks of arrivals and departures).
For its long-haul fleet renewal, Brussels Airlines is leaning towards the Airbus A350 over the Boeing 787. The A350 is favoured because it aligns better with the stringent noise restrictions imposed by the new environmental permit at Brussels Airport. These restrictions, which limit night landings to quieter aircraft, render the Airbus A330neo unviable due to its higher noise levels during landing. https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... expansion/
They don't need currently to add A220, because the current plan doens't include thinner routes

A330Neo is not the natural replacement of A330Ceo. The A350-800 project was supposed to be the real replacement of the A330-300 (https://simpleflying.com/what-happened-airbus-a350-800/). The A330Neo is mainly there to compete with the B787-8 and 9, because Airbus have needed of an airplane for the 250-300 seater market.

The sales are not very high (planned for 1000 aircraft in 20 years) because

1st: most of airlines using A330Ceo or have used A330Ceo have added A350.

2nd: A350 can replace at least 3 type aircraft B777-200ER (300ER for the 1000 version) , A340-300-500-600s but also the A330s

3rd: the fleet of A330Ceo is quite still young if you compare to the B767-300ER or B777-200ER replaced by B787-8 and 9. The last A330ceo was buit in 2020 but sales were still good in the 2010s. The last B767 pax was built in 2014 for Air Astana but sales were already low since many years (https://www.jetphotos.com/photo/7869684) and the last B777-200ER pax was built in 2013 for ANA but like for the B767 sales were low since mid 2000s (https://www.jetphotos.com/showphotos.ph ... r=0&page=8)

Cathay Pacific, Malaysia Airlines, China Eastern, China Southern, Turkish Airlines, Singapour Airlines, Air China, Air France, KLM, Iberia, Qatar Airways, have all used or still using the A330 but they have added A350 and some airlines will phased out the A330s soon (Air France and KLM have already started to remove their A330s) without to be replaced by the A330Neo
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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by lumumba »

fcw wrote: 21 May 2024, 11:22
lumumba wrote: 21 May 2024, 00:38
rwandan-flyer wrote: 20 May 2024, 22:57 Short-haul fleet: Airbus A321neo
I think now it's clear, Brussels Airlines doesn't want to use A321XLR.
But the A321neo because they have a bigger cargo capacity to fly to Africa!
You don’t seem to understand Patrice: an A321neo needs auxiliary fuel tanks in the aft cargo to have the range for Africa! It’s range or cargo capacity but not both.
I see but it's not clear in this article.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Conti764 »

fcw wrote: 20 May 2024, 13:44
Conti764 wrote: 19 May 2024, 23:50 Oneworld and IAG would have been the far better option for SN.
I don’t know how many times it needs to be repeated, but IAG wasn’t interested in buying SN, ONLY Luftie was. It was Luftie or bankrupt, FULL STOP!
IAG was close to open an Open Skies (the, more business orientated predecessor of Level) base in Brussels and if SN would have gone tits up, Vueling and Level would certainly have made their way to Brussels. In fact a bit the same as the Eurowings scenario Luftie intended to implement.
Not so surprising because when LH bought SN, IAG didn't even excist.
longwings wrote: 17 May 2024, 06:51
Atlantis wrote: 14 May 2024, 14:19 Oneworld would have been a good alliance. British Airways has only a very few destinations there. SN could have been really the star. In Star they have LH and LX next to them in Africa.
British Airways did consider buying Brussels Airlines at some point, though not necessarily for its African network. Plans under consideration included turning BRU into an alternate hub for connecting traffic from key cities in North America and Asia to secondary cities throughout Europe. The goal was to transfer some connections from LHR to BRU to increase O/D traffic in London, and to better compete with CDG and FRA.
At some point British Airways obviously was very interested in SN. Not surprising since they worked closely together and SN had a codeshare agreement with American Airlines. So IF British Airways would have acquired Brussels Airlines they'd eventually end up in IAG.

Being a member of Oneworld would have been much more beneficial then being the ugly duckling at LH for so many years since SN would have had a far more important role to play in Oneworld then in Star Alliance. SN has lost years because of the Germans buying SN to undercut the competition from doing so. Lufthansa never wanted SN in the first place, they only wanted to make sure SN wouldn't end up in OW/IAG.

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by rwandan-flyer »

Conti764 wrote: 21 May 2024, 15:12
fcw wrote: 20 May 2024, 13:44
Conti764 wrote: 19 May 2024, 23:50 Oneworld and IAG would have been the far better option for SN.
I don’t know how many times it needs to be repeated, but IAG wasn’t interested in buying SN, ONLY Luftie was. It was Luftie or bankrupt, FULL STOP!
IAG was close to open an Open Skies (the, more business orientated predecessor of Level) base in Brussels and if SN would have gone tits up, Vueling and Level would certainly have made their way to Brussels. In fact a bit the same as the Eurowings scenario Luftie intended to implement.
Not so surprising because when LH bought SN, IAG didn't even excist.
longwings wrote: 17 May 2024, 06:51
Atlantis wrote: 14 May 2024, 14:19 Oneworld would have been a good alliance. British Airways has only a very few destinations there. SN could have been really the star. In Star they have LH and LX next to them in Africa.
British Airways did consider buying Brussels Airlines at some point, though not necessarily for its African network. Plans under consideration included turning BRU into an alternate hub for connecting traffic from key cities in North America and Asia to secondary cities throughout Europe. The goal was to transfer some connections from LHR to BRU to increase O/D traffic in London, and to better compete with CDG and FRA.
At some point British Airways obviously was very interested in SN. Not surprising since they worked closely together and SN had a codeshare agreement with American Airlines. So IF British Airways would have acquired Brussels Airlines they'd eventually end up in IAG.

Being a member of Oneworld would have been much more beneficial then being the ugly duckling at LH for so many years since SN would have had a far more important role to play in Oneworld then in Star Alliance. SN has lost years because of the Germans buying SN to undercut the competition from doing so. Lufthansa never wanted SN in the first place, they only wanted to make sure SN wouldn't end up in OW/IAG.
Quite interesting to hear this when you know that IAG did exactky what Lufthansa wanted to do with Eurowings at Brussels airport. Replaced many SN flights by Eurowings flights.

As someone said, Iberia now operates very few flights outside Madrid. The most of flights are now operated by Vueling. And From Barcelone Level has replaced Iberia for long haul flights.

People complains about SN strike, but in 2010s there were several huge strikes and crisis at Iberia

2012 Iberia to halt non-profitable routes, lay off 4500 employees https://www.kuna.net.kw/ArticleDetails. ... anguage=en

2012 Iberia staff call 24 days of strikes https://www.sknvibes.com/news/newsdetails.cfm/54410

2012 International Airlines Group sues Spanish pilots over Iberia strikes https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... sh-airways

2013 Iberia airline workers protest in their 15-day strike against plans to lay off 3,800 staff https://newsroom.ap.org/editorial-photo ... ce=youtube

2014 Iberia pilots drop strike threat and accept 14% salary cut https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... sh-airways

2015 IAG accepts mediator proposal in Iberia labor dispute https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/iag ... or-dispute

2019 Iberia Ground Crews To Strike In Madrid, Barcelona https://www.skycop.com/news/airlines/ib ... barcelona/

Not better after the covid and i probably forgot some others strikes and crisis. So yes IAG post profits but everything is not ok. And i didn't talk about Aer Lingus and British Airways.

I m wonder how some people could be react by seeing Christoph Mueller aka The Terminator to become the CEO of Brussels Airlines https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... nator#ip=1
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fcw
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by fcw »

rwandan-flyer wrote: 21 May 2024, 20:48
Quite interesting to hear this when you know that IAG did exactky what Lufthansa wanted to do with Eurowings at Brussels airport. Replaced many SN flights by Eurowings flights.

As someone said, Iberia now operates very few flights outside Madrid. The most of flights are now operated by Vueling. And From Barcelone Level has replaced Iberia for long haul flights.
Exactly! Furthermore one out of three shorthaul flights to/from Madrid is operated by low cost subsidiary Iberia Express.
Same story in London, where Euroflyer is operating the of former BA flights to/from Gatwick and Citflyer the ones to London City.
The Brussels Airlines brand would never have survived an, hypothetical, IAG takeover.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by Conti764 »

fcw wrote: 22 May 2024, 10:01
rwandan-flyer wrote: 21 May 2024, 20:48
Quite interesting to hear this when you know that IAG did exactky what Lufthansa wanted to do with Eurowings at Brussels airport. Replaced many SN flights by Eurowings flights.

As someone said, Iberia now operates very few flights outside Madrid. The most of flights are now operated by Vueling. And From Barcelone Level has replaced Iberia for long haul flights.
Exactly! Furthermore one out of three shorthaul flights to/from Madrid is operated by low cost subsidiary Iberia Express.
Same story in London, where Euroflyer is operating the of former BA flights to/from Gatwick and Citflyer the ones to London City.
The Brussels Airlines brand would never have survived an, hypothetical, IAG takeover.
This is pure speculation. BA was interested in acquiring SN before IAG was founded. SN could/would have served a different role under British wings, leading to a different approach within IAG.
I realise this is speculation from my side as well, but SN would have had more use to BA then it did to LH which ready had several hubs and subsidiaries and for which BRU had (and still has?) no use at all.
The examples mentioned here are one country and one city with several major airports. Belgium only has one. SN serves a niche market in Africa and BRU could have been a reliever airport to LHR.

SN finally seems on a steady course and the proposed TATL-Africa hub could bring purpose to both SN and BRU, but is was a struggle for years since LH took over.

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Brussels Airlines' fleet renewal

Post by rwandan-flyer »

It doesn't mean that you have a code share that you will join an alliance. Indeed SN had code share with British Airways and some others Oneworld airlines but for few years in 2000s The partnership has not been renewed (it seems it ended around 2007).

South African Airways had strong partnership with 2 SkyTeam airlines : Delta Airlines (started in 2000 https://aviationweek.com/delta-begin-co ... an-airways) and Air France (https://aviationstrategy.aero/newslette ... ing-crisis). But they never joined SkyTeam and code share ended when SAA joined Star Alliance in mid 2000s.



Brussels validates the British Airways/SN Brussels partnership


The European Commission has validated for a period of six years the commercial alliance between the airlines British Airways and SN Brussels Airlines (SNBA).

https://www-lechotouristique-com.transl ... r_pto=wapp


I just found a topic on the forum (2007)

How many partners still with Brussels Airlines after 25/03 ?
viewtopic.php?t=20350

So if Oneworld wanted to keep working with SN, SN would be in Oneworld alliance in 2024. It's not an opinion but facts. Look what Aer Lingus did. They left Onewrold in 2007 then joined IAG (after Aer Lingus has refused several take over from BA https://www.google.com/search?q=british ... s-wiz-serp)

Some factors cain explain that:

Many airlines were loosing money due to the 2008 great recession. Iberia was near to collapse https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... eindustry1
British Airways and IberIa were already working to create IAG which probably to back into profit were more focused on US Europe market and point to point market with Vueling to compete with EasyJet and Ryanair and not African market (BA closed several routes to Africa in 2010s) https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... r-analysis
Lufthansa decided to sell BMI to IAG https://www.bbc.com/news/business-15588645

In the same time Star Alliance was expanding into Africa with Egytpair and South African Airways soon joined by Ethiopian to compete with Air France KLM Kenya Airways
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