Lufthansa in 2020

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Boavida
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Boavida »

Apparently the German government wants LH to keep its current orders with Airbus, as part of the 'rescue' deal.

https://www.tijd.be/ondernemen/luchtvaa ... 28647.html

LJ
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by LJ »

Boavida wrote:
22 May 2020, 17:18
Apparently the German government wants LH to keep its current orders with Airbus, as part of the 'rescue' deal.

https://www.tijd.be/ondernemen/luchtvaa ... 28647.html
Now we see why you don't want to give politicians too much to say. maybe the Germans can learn from the French on how to behave as a shareholder in an airline.

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lumumba
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by lumumba »

LJ wrote:
22 May 2020, 17:50
Boavida wrote:
22 May 2020, 17:18
Apparently the German government wants LH to keep its current orders with Airbus, as part of the 'rescue' deal.

https://www.tijd.be/ondernemen/luchtvaa ... 28647.html
Now we see why you don't want to give politicians too much to say. maybe the Germans can learn from the French on how to behave as a shareholder in an airline.
But it's normal we have to keep Airbus alive, for sure if you give to Lufthansa a lot of money.
It's also a strategic industry!
That's exactly why you have to keep also a political part .
Hasta la victoria siempre.

theeuropean
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by theeuropean »

I am also in favour of keeping the Airbus deal for 2 reasons. First it keeps jobs and is also partially owned by Germany so it makes sense. Also for 9 billion euros just from Germany that is a lot of tax payers money, I would definitely want some say and guarantees. They will probably let Lufthansa work by itself but somethings will be pressured by the government. Also if they get less money from the Austrian and Belgian government it will amount to roughly 10 billion. Also the fact that they asked for 100 million more from the Belgian government shows that they are not in such a sound shape. Secondly, with 192 aircraft coming it means older aircraft will be taken out. This creates for the medium to long term future (definitely not for now) that OS LX but also SN (hoepfully) maybe get some aircraft.

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sn26567
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

If LH has to buy from Airbus all that they ordered, they might abandon the 777X order from Boeing!

It's really about keeping jobs in Europe.
André
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RoMax
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by RoMax »

sn26567 wrote:
22 May 2020, 20:45
If LH has to buy from Airbus all that they ordered, they might abandon the 777X order from Boeing!
Not so sure - for sure Lufthansa wants to delay its 777 deliveries (and possibly cancel or convert part of its order), it has already indicated so anyway. But cancel them because of the Airbusses being forced on them? The vast majority of their outstanding orders are for the A320neo and A321neo, in addition to 27 A350-900's (which are replacements for their still plenty smaller widebodies that need to go out).

Just like for the 777X, Airbus wanted to delay a part of those deliveries - worth €5 billion over the next 4 years - even if they cancel the Boeing order (or push it back a lot), that doesn't solve their issue of having a backlog of well over 100 A320neo family aircraft having to be delivered (in the essence it's for those that Germany wants LH to take delivery of their Airbus orders without delay - having A32F final assembly in the country).

Even by kicking out older A32F aircraft faster than anticipated (which they were going to do anyway, not just LH but the whole group), they still have to take more NEO's than they want on short term. Those aircraft will end up being very expensive being brand new, while unlikely to fully benefit from fuel saving advantages due to low kerosine prices for the foreseeable future.

Passenger
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Air France now experiences why Carsten Spohr (CEO Lufthansa) opposes political influence in airline management and operations. France guarantees a bank loan to Air France, but in exchange France demands that Air France realizes a 50% CO² cut on domestic flights by 2024. Example: France demands that domestic flights are cancelled when there is a TGV alternative of 2,5 hours:
https://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/air-fr ... e-20200524

nordikcam
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by nordikcam »

Passenger wrote:
24 May 2020, 21:01
Air France now experiences why Carsten Spohr (CEO Lufthansa) opposes political influence in airline management and operations. France guarantees a bank loan to Air France, but in exchange France demands that Air France realizes a 50% CO² cut on domestic flights by 2024. Example: France demands that domestic flights are cancelled when there is a TGV alternative of 2,5 hours:
https://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/air-fr ... e-20200524
It is the return of Air Inter in the conclusions!

Atco EBBR
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Atco EBBR »

Passenger wrote:
24 May 2020, 21:01
Air France now experiences why Carsten Spohr (CEO Lufthansa) opposes political influence in airline management and operations. France guarantees a bank loan to Air France, but in exchange France demands that Air France realizes a 50% CO² cut on domestic flights by 2024. Example: France demands that domestic flights are cancelled when there is a TGV alternative of 2,5 hours:
https://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/air-fr ... e-20200524
I don't see why that's such a bad idea, honestly...

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lumumba
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by lumumba »

Passenger wrote:
24 May 2020, 21:01
Air France now experiences why Carsten Spohr (CEO Lufthansa) opposes political influence in airline management and operations. France guarantees a bank loan to Air France, but in exchange France demands that Air France realizes a 50% CO² cut on domestic flights by 2024. Example: France demands that domestic flights are cancelled when there is a TGV alternative of 2,5 hours:
https://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/air-fr ... e-20200524
That's a good thing for all the reasons we know I don't see the problem here that's again exactly why we need political interference.
No private company will turn down a part of is profits without counterpart to reduce his CO2!
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Passenger
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Passenger »

The problem with politicians taking commercial/operational decisions, is that those decisions are not allways in the economical interest of the airline. Alexander De Croo could demand that Brussels Airlines adds Johannesburg - but there is too much competition on that route. Angela Merkel could demand that Lufthansa replaces all U.S. Boeings by European Airbuses - but Merkels' decision will weaken Lufthansa in their negociations with Airbus.

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lumumba
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by lumumba »

Passenger wrote:
25 May 2020, 09:03
The problem with politicians taking commercial/operational decisions, is that those decisions are not allways in the economical interest of the airline. Alexander De Croo could demand that Brussels Airlines adds Johannesburg - but there is too much competition on that route. Angela Merkel could demand that Lufthansa replaces all U.S. Boeings by European Airbuses - but Merkels' decision will weaken Lufthansa in their negociations with Airbus.
That's true that's why they should have a small part of the company a bit like with Brussels Airport.

About your argument about Lufthansa it's not applicable regarding the special circumstances.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Poiu
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Poiu »

lumumba wrote:
25 May 2020, 09:50

That's true that's why they should have a small part of the company a bit like with Brussels Airport.

About your argument about Lufthansa it's not applicable regarding the special circumstances.

🤔 :?: :?: :?:

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lumumba
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by lumumba »

Poiu wrote:
25 May 2020, 12:00
lumumba wrote:
25 May 2020, 09:50

That's true that's why they should have a small part of the company a bit like with Brussels Airport.

About your argument about Lufthansa it's not applicable regarding the special circumstances.

🤔 :?: :?: :?:
About Lufthansa bailout that is special measure in a special time that's why they push them to keep the Airbus order.
There is no negotiation now between Lufthansa and Airbus it's part of the survive package.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

LJ
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by LJ »

Passenger wrote:
24 May 2020, 21:01
Air France now experiences why Carsten Spohr (CEO Lufthansa) opposes political influence in airline management and operations. France guarantees a bank loan to Air France, but in exchange France demands that Air France realizes a 50% CO² cut on domestic flights by 2024. Example: France demands that domestic flights are cancelled when there is a TGV alternative of 2,5 hours:
https://www.lefigaro.fr/societes/air-fr ... e-20200524
You assume AF made money on those flights. Moreover, as I stated before, they're still allowed to have flight, even when the TGV is an alternative. However, they're not allowed to sell tickets for O&D traffic (thus only when connecting).

Poiu
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Poiu »

The EU wants Luftie to concede some slots in FRA and MUC in return for the state aid.

https://app.handelsblatt.com/politik/de ... 4fNHlH-ap3

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sn26567
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Poiu wrote:
26 May 2020, 11:35
The EU wants Luftie to concede some slots in FRA and MUC in return for the state aid.

https://app.handelsblatt.com/politik/de ... 4fNHlH-ap3
... which was duly mentioned in our article yesterday:

https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... overnment/

"The deal still has to be approved by several other parties, including the Lufthansa supervisory board, the Economic Stabilisation Fund (WSF), the shareholders and the European Commission. The latter wants Lufthansa to transfer valuable slots at Frankfurt and Munich airports to competitors as compensation, but the Germans are not comfortable with that."
André
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Ansett
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by Ansett »

If SN remains in the LH Group, LH could accept the EU Commission's and transfer some flights operating from/to FRA/MUC to SN and OS :)
(I'm already expecting someone to stay that this is too simplistic).

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lumumba
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by lumumba »

Ansett wrote:
26 May 2020, 16:41
If SN remains in the LH Group, LH could accept the EU Commission's and transfer some flights operating from/to FRA/MUC to SN and OS :)
(I'm already expecting someone to stay that this is too simplistic).
Let's say that the advantage of this big companies are that they have big hubs and a lot of connections possibility.
If they transfer some flights to small hubs like Brussels and Vienna they will lose this advantage.
So it will not happen I don't see why Air France and KLM can be saved and Lufthansa has to give something in return.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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sn26567
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Re: Lufthansa in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

lumumba wrote:
26 May 2020, 18:49
I don't see why Air France and KLM can be saved and Lufthansa has to give something in return.
Air France has to abandon domestic routes served by TGV. KLM has not received anything yet (still under discussion).
André
ex Sabena #26567

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