Brussels Airlines in 2020

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theeuropean
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by theeuropean »

Does anyone know how the LHG negotiations are going between the different governments? It seems to be taking quite some time...

Homo Aeroportus
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

Again a very long day for those manning OO-SFG today.

She left EBBR at 07:46 this morning as SN1041 to CKY. After a 90-minute turnaround, heading for ABJ to pick up more repatriates I guess.
Left ABJ at 16:23LT/UTC and currently near BCN at FL410, probably heading for BRU.

A +18-hour day in the current circumstances. Congrats.

H.A.

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Ansett wrote:
19 May 2020, 23:40
As to cleaning up the mess at SN, the biggest mess was the integration into EW. If you don't admit that, you are of bad faith.
Ieder zijn mening ? Freedom of speech? Nope, not if ones disagrees with the Lufthansa-Brussels-Airlines-Carsten-Spohr-Christina-Foerster haters. First you called us "narrow minded", now we are "of bad faith". It's become frightening, those hateful posts.

oldblueeyes
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

Ansett wrote:
19 May 2020, 23:40
oldblueeyes wrote:
19 May 2020, 07:05
And? He grew by 20 Mil Pax or 70 planes / Q400 not counted. Should he have left the market to the competition?
Yes, it takes some time to harmonize operstionally up to 5 AOC per Base but this crisis will Help to do it eben earlier - Q400 is out, the enheritated TUI contract is out etc
You need also time to Clean up the mess Brussels has - they were also not forced to grow above their regional airline size, right?
Should CS have left the market to the competition ? I am VERY surprised that the EU Commission authorized this "consolidation", but then, AM is the most powerful politician in the EU and she is German !

As to cleaning up the mess at SN, the biggest mess was the integration into EW. If you don't admit that, you are of bad faith. CF realized it and took the first opportunity to leave or she was offered another post in order to let a Belgian clean up the mess left by the Germans.

As to SN "not being forced to grow above their regional airline size", please elaborate, because literally this means that you are implying they should not operate any long haul flights.
Let's start with the last point.
SN was until the major re-fleeting (AVROS out, more A320 in) basically a regional company - flying in the range of 100-130 Seats/ plane. This if you admit that this size of the industry is called regional aircraft - you just have to look to the feeders of the major airlines.
So the model was a combination of "regional airline" with "niche long haul".

In the mean time, the local market developed a lot trought the low cost carriers. And as we know, they are fighting on cost per seat, under others as well via plane size. The A320/B738 are the workhorses of the industry, and now the switch towwards the A321 and Max200 has started.

What Brussels made during the last years of Gustin was to increase the aircraft size from AVRO+319+ minimal 320 to 319+320. Good for fleet harmonisation, but bad for positioning in the market, as this is causing one dilemma:
- if the company wants to be a hub and spoke network airline, it needs regional aircraft ssupporting the hub
- if it want to be a City to City player, than it has to go storngly towards a 320 as a workhorse of the fleet

The mix 319+320 itself made an alignemtn to Eurowings easy - there were also a lot of enheritated 319 fro AirBerlin, a lot of clean up to be done in the comign years as well so it made some logic to align the business models.

Now the question is - how could a long haul focused SN deliver, if it does not have the right fleet set up?

Let's look into the group:
- Austrian had half of the fleet in regional aircraft size - the future will be a mix of E195 and A320 ( the A319 will stay for the next 2 years until the flight program is ramped up again and than leave)
- Swiss has done a state-of- the art upgauging - 20AVROs and 5 A319 were replaced by 20 A223 and 9A221_ on top, their wet leaste partner Helvetic moved from 7 Fokker 100 to 10 E190, feeding mainly from Italy
- Lufthansa has the Cityline with its CRJ fleet and Dolomit doing the feeder job from Italy with E195 plus the remaining E190 in FRA - alltogether 61 aircraft
- politically the last turboprops will be gone - Swiss deselected the last wetleases since years, LGW was anyhow due to end 2021 and Austrian decided to give away the Q400 2 years ago
- Eurowings has strong fllet harmonisation plan with the 320 as a core ( boosed also by the fact that many A319 eg of the Lufthansa are over 20 years old and rocket up with 8 sectors a day)

And that is finally my critical view on the perception and claims vs real acting of Gustin and his team:

- what he was doing was to develop Brussels in a model close to Aer Lingus - which is a smart thing, as both Ireland and Belgium have strong LCC players comepting, a lot of P2P and most of the long haul is more price sensitive than a classic carrier
- but if he was doing this, than the integration with eurowings as a logic step - "smart" budget long haul, differentiated city pairs and a kind of upper end P2P with smart hubbing eg. Düsseldorf
- on the contrary , if he would have wanted to move forward as a full hub and spoke player, than basically the fleet decisions would have had to be rather a combination of E190 or E195 without wetleases and A320 - the first ones to optimize confort, cost per trip and economics in the catchement areas, the second model to serve trunk routes at competitive cost

And this is the dilemma for the current and /or future management as well. The projection for the group is to have by 2023 100 less aircraft but carry the same number pf passengers - means in average 15% more pax per plane. The consequence for Brussels is a more 320 centric fleet, kniwing the current difficulties to fill the planes and earn money. At the same time, the political wish is more long haul, where this fleet positioning can't provide feeding and a closer alignement to the major brands, with a product that might be significanly lower - eg trough long transfer times.

As a conclusion - i never said at any time Brussels should not operate long haul. I just say that the development initiated since Gustin does not really support the business model of a classic hub and spoke player.
On the contrary, i do believe that Brussels could have a great role as brand below Swiss and Lufthansa, similarly to Aer Lingus in IAG - not promising that much service, attracing more pricey clients ( by the way longer connecting times are always good for well developed airports with good food and shopping areas so these collateral effects shouldn't be neglected).

As a benchmark , i would suggest you to go trought eh presentation and see how IAg is positioning its brands

https://www.iairgroup.com/~/media/Files ... md2018.pdf

You will see clearly that there are many parallels between Iberia Express / the shorthaul of Iberia and Lingus inkl.long haul positioned as smart choice products but not frugal.

Worth to think about it for Brussels or Austrian as well, if a high dosage of local pride could be swallowed.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

Looks like pilots of Brussels Airlines are ready to cut 45% of there salary to help the company to recover and at the same time to avoid layoffs.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by lumumba »

737MAX wrote:
20 May 2020, 10:57
lumumba wrote:
20 May 2020, 10:37
Looks like pilots of Brussels Airlines are ready to cut 45% of there salary to help the company to recover and at the same time to avoid layoffs.
I believe that’s once again a pretty bad shortcut made in the media. They propose to work part-time (and therefore lose up to 45% of their salary that way).
Exactly but if I understood well they don't have to pay the layoff expenses etc...looks like win win scenario.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

Passenger wrote:
20 May 2020, 09:13
Ansett wrote:
19 May 2020, 23:40
As to cleaning up the mess at SN, the biggest mess was the integration into EW. If you don't admit that, you are of bad faith.
Ieder zijn mening ? Freedom of speech? Nope, not if ones disagrees with the Lufthansa-Brussels-Airlines-Carsten-Spohr-Christina-Foerster haters. First you called us "narrow minded", now we are "of bad faith". It's become frightening, those hateful posts.
I can count on one hand those who are still cheering for Lufthansa at Brussels Airlines or in Belgium.

So, it's clear that posts cheering for Lufthansa despite cuts and lack of future vision for SN are corporate PR propaganda trying to undermine free speech and limit anti-LH sentiment.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

lumumba wrote:
20 May 2020, 10:37
Looks like pilots of Brussels Airlines are ready to cut 45% of there salary to help the company to recover and at the same time to avoid layoffs.
Indeed: https://www.aviation24.be/airlines/luft ... save-jobs/
André
ex Sabena #26567

Passenger
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Flanker2 wrote:
20 May 2020, 11:22
I can count on one hand those who are still cheering for Lufthansa at Brussels Airlines or in Belgium.
Indeed: they all have left. They all have been chased away by the cascade of hatred posts here. Not only those "cheering for": also people who think that Brussels Airlines isn't a bad airline after all.

brabel
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by brabel »

Well, the pilots are pointing out in their letter that there was bad management, a eurowings debacle and so on.
Harsh words, but since they are working for the company, I guess there will be (a lot of?) truth in it.

I really hope they do find a solution with the government too. Belgium needs a home carrier.

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

Passenger wrote:
20 May 2020, 12:43
Flanker2 wrote:
20 May 2020, 11:22
I can count on one hand those who are still cheering for Lufthansa at Brussels Airlines or in Belgium.
Indeed: they all have left. They all have been chased away by the cascade of hatred posts here. Not only those "cheering for": also people who think that Brussels Airlines isn't a bad airline after all.
There's probably more Lufthansa cheerleaders on this forum than the whole of Belgium.


I don't see the point of the unions offering to reduce work time to part time. It's most likely most will be working parttime, parttime on unemployment until traffic recovers. Economic unemployment can go on for years.
Reducing contracts to part-time affects your retirement as well as other measures while bringing no benefits to the company, only the government will save money...

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Conti764 »

Passenger wrote:
20 May 2020, 12:43
Flanker2 wrote:
20 May 2020, 11:22
I can count on one hand those who are still cheering for Lufthansa at Brussels Airlines or in Belgium.
Indeed: they all have left. They all have been chased away by the cascade of hatred posts here. Not only those "cheering for": also people who think that Brussels Airlines isn't a bad airline after all.
Is the world always black or white for you? For or against Carsten Spohr, for or against Lufthansa, Brussels Airlines is either a good airline or a lousy one. Always black or white, never grey.

People can still like SN but point out to the flaws. Nobody hates Carsten Spohr, but a lot of people were against integrating SN into EW. And Carsten Spohr is the face of the Lufthansa Group so het got the blame for it. The fact that last June the integration of SN into EW was halted points out that those people who argumented against the idea weren't wrong after all and LH realised theor mistake.

Bracebrace
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Bracebrace »

Flanker2 wrote:
20 May 2020, 14:29
I don't see the point of the unions offering to reduce work time to part time. It's most likely most will be working parttime, parttime on unemployment until traffic recovers. Economic unemployment can go on for years.
It's been done successfully in the past and offers advantages to the company.

As there is no long term planning in aviation, simply "riding the waves". You don't know when a company needs pilots. Airlines are always desperate to lay-off people in crisis, and desperate to hire in periods of economic growth. You don't simply hire a pilot and train him, it takes months from signature to "released with no restrictions". The proposal eliminates that problem and protects pilots in time to avoid abuse (stipulate rules to avoid hiring contractors, DE(C) guys on lower salary scales, promote fleet changes etc...)

Flanker2
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

Bracebrace wrote:
20 May 2020, 17:12
Flanker2 wrote:
20 May 2020, 14:29
I don't see the point of the unions offering to reduce work time to part time. It's most likely most will be working parttime, parttime on unemployment until traffic recovers. Economic unemployment can go on for years.
It's been done successfully in the past and offers advantages to the company.

As there is no long term planning in aviation, simply "riding the waves". You don't know when a company needs pilots. Airlines are always desperate to lay-off people in crisis, and desperate to hire in periods of economic growth. You don't simply hire a pilot and train him, it takes months from signature to "released with no restrictions". The proposal eliminates that problem and protects pilots in time to avoid abuse (stipulate rules to avoid hiring contractors, DE(C) guys on lower salary scales, promote fleet changes etc...)
I think that I haven't explained it clearly.

SN has already used economic unemployment several times in the past, so even when the force majeure unemployment related to Coronavirus end, as long as they have staff surplus they can keep staff partly on economical unemployment.

https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20091014_052
https://nl.express.live/gedeeltelijke-t ... xp-114253/

This measure can be enacted by SN based on the economic situation and does not impact pensions and other services tied to social contributions as these will be calculated based on 100% of your salary.

However, when you sign a contract that says you are a part timer at 55%, you are officially receiving a salary of a part-timer and your pension and holiday money is calculated based on 55%.

In addition, even if you go back to full time work, SN may choose to not give back a full time contract and instead only pay you 55% + 45% overtime and only in the summer when they need you fulltime. The problem with this is, in the winter you are still a part-timer.
Also, social contributions for overtime are tricky and may not build towards your pension.

So in my view, this measure doesn't really give any additional help to the company in the short-term that it can't take advantage of through prolonged economic unemployment.

In Italy, Alitalia has had staff on economic unemployment from 2009 to 2018, it was even investigated for fraud as pilots received it while flying as contractors for other airlines.
https://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2015/0 ... i/1415481/


If the staff and SN want to help eachother, there are many things that can be "given and taken".
Examples:
-Volunteer staff can offer to receive a part of the salary in shares of the company at an attractive rate
-Free confirmed tickets to destinations in the European network in exchange for unpaid time off
-Expanding the friends and family program to activate all SN employees to become salesmen on their social media. Instant popularity for the staff, cash deposits for SN.
Friends and families can purchase discounted vouchers, tickets or even shares in the company. Based on the "bike for Africa" model, but it becomes "socialise for SN."
-Drinks and meals at the B.House cafetaria for free
-Combine strength through group purchases of insurance, food, utilities, fuel to save money.
-Expand the scope of in-house tasks (although this will be at the expense of contractors/handling companies), such as driving crew to/from the aircraft, pushback and general handling tasks
-Etc...

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Apparently, Brussels Airlines has refused the offer of the pilots and wants structural measures.
André
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Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jetter »

Flanker2 wrote:
20 May 2020, 20:36
SN has already used economic unemployment several times in the past, so even when the force majeure unemployment related to Coronavirus end, as long as they have staff surplus they can keep staff partly on economical unemployment.

https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20091014_052
https://nl.express.live/gedeeltelijke-t ... xp-114253/

This measure can be enacted by SN based on the economic situation and does not impact pensions and other services tied to social contributions as these will be calculated based on 100% of your salary.
If people wonder why taxes in Belgium are so high and claim that it's bad for competition please take note: here is one of the reasons. The government pays your wages when you are unemployed and it doesn't even impact your pension and other social services. Moreover this can happen multiple times even when the company doesn't make any structural reforms.

Unlike some people on this forum pretend those taxes are not going in a black hole, but are spend on the many exorbitant aspects of Belgian social welfare and the staff of SN does profit, so only fair they have low net wages in international perspective.

LJ
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by LJ »

Jetter wrote:
20 May 2020, 23:21
At least LH now can’t maintain that Belgium shouldn’t get shares in return as that’s what they agreed to in Germany. Think it will go fast now.
Unless they don't need anything anymore from the Belgian government. If LH gets up to 9bn, then that's up to 2bn more than AF + KL needed combined. I doubt that the burn rate of AF+KL combined is almost equal to the burn rate of LH+EW combined, especially as LH has LH Cargo, which must be running well these days.

BTW what the Belgian government certainly will not get is 25% and thus anything to say in the company. It seems that the German government gets some presents shares at EUR 2.56 whilst trading much higher. However, I would guess this present will also come with a present for LH.

jerry
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by jerry »

ΑΝΝΑ has an analysis for SN with a route map for the routes that stop.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

737MAX wrote:
21 May 2020, 09:24
sn26567 wrote:
20 May 2020, 22:19
Apparently, Brussels Airlines has refused the offer of the pilots and wants structural measures.
"Apparently". According to a "very good source" (like we know the reliability of those good sources here) or anything official?
Can't find anything in the media.
Check https://www.rtbf.be/auvio/detail_jt-19h30?id=2637639 at approximately 24.00
André
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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by sn26567 »

Note: some posts relative to state aid to Lufthansa have been moved to the Lufthansa in 2020 topic
André
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