Brussels Airlines in 2020

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Ge203
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Joined: 14 Feb 2019, 13:28
Location: Brabant wallon/Waals-Brabant

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Ge203 »

Poiu wrote: 16 May 2020, 11:05
Ge203 wrote: 16 May 2020, 10:13

It's rather a good thing that SN isn't integrated into the European Flight Academy. Unless, you want German-speaking pilots, as it's a requirement to enter the school. While SN asks to be fluent in one of the two main national languages, and asks you to learn the other language. They mostly take pilots from CAE Brussels, and are happy with most of the trainees.
I beg to disagree!
Firstly the German language is a requirement for LH,OS and LX, but obviously wouldn’t be one for SN.
The big difference however is that EFA selects on ability rather than money. Students pay a modest fee of 3000€ to start, but the training is paid for by an interest free loan which is paid back in the form of a salary sacrifice of 5% once the student becomes employed as a pilot. Many graduates of other schools will be unemployed for years whilst having to pay back 100 000+€ to the bank, parents who often guarantee these loans may have to sell their houses...

The last intake at SN was mainly graduates of EFA by the way.
That's true as well. However, salary sacrifice can be up to 15%, but at least you have an income to payback. Do you know what happens if they fail to integrate an airline of the group? With the situation now, the newly graduated will most probably not get a job. I guess they will have to payback, even without a their seat in the cockpit at the end. (Sorry for the off-topic, just find it interesting)

Deejay
Posts: 24
Joined: 06 Feb 2018, 09:20

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Deejay »

Image
Received a nice email this morning signed by CF.... with the heading above....

Good point, all the airlines are in the picture, (i had another one a few weeks ago, with only LH, LX and OS)
But why the hell this little line between the ones on the left, and the ones on the right ?

SN must become a network airline, like the other cousins...

That would be a clear brand positioning understandable for all the customers

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Atlantis »

On the other side it will create opportunities for other airlines like LOT, Vueling, Alitalia, Wizz and Ryanair to jump into those destinations which are left. Especially to East Europe

Boavida
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Joined: 14 Sep 2010, 23:54

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Boavida »

When I see those logos of Austrian and Swiss, I can't help to think that Belgian Airlines would have been a better name for SN, it could be used as simply 'Belgian'...

Image

Just a sidenote ofcourse, I know this is the least of the concerns right now...

oldblueeyes
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Joined: 13 Apr 2020, 12:44

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

Atlantis wrote: 16 May 2020, 12:48 On the other side it will create opportunities for other airlines like LOT, Vueling, Alitalia, Wizz and Ryanair to jump into those destinations which are left. Especially to East Europe
Well, tge strategic Option is to let Eurowings Flyer them P2P with A320. If they can't fill more than twice weekly, than it is fine.

But you can't have a network promise and than fly low frequency.

LJ
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Location: Heiloo NL

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by LJ »

Deejay wrote: 16 May 2020, 11:45SN must become a network airline, like the other cousins...
Brussels Airlines is part of the Network Airlines (at least reporting wise) as of January 1st and no longer belongs to the Eurowings segment.
Deejay wrote: 16 May 2020, 11:45 But why the hell this little line between the ones on the left, and the ones on the right ?
Maybe they haven't updated the stationary yet (cost saving?). Though they only have to remove the line as it no longer makes any sense.

Deejay
Posts: 24
Joined: 06 Feb 2018, 09:20

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Deejay »

Boavida wrote: 16 May 2020, 12:56 When I see those logos of Austrian and Swiss, I can't help to think that Belgian Airlines would have been a better name for SN, it could be used as simply 'Belgian'...

Image

Just a sidenote ofcourse, I know this is the least of the concerns right now...
They could very well just keep « brussels » ....
But i agree the « airlines » in the logo is stupid. Takes place and reduces the size of what matters ....

brabel
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Joined: 17 Jun 2015, 10:51

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by brabel »

So, destinations to be axed are especially south and east Europe.
No more Warsaw, Krakow, Vilnius, Zagreb, St-Petersburg...
The hole east is now without SN present... That's a shame.

The destinations in the south are ok to be axed in my opinion, except for Sevilla and Valencia (personal reasons, not business of course. Don't think they care about my personal reasons though haha)

Let's hope these cuts will indeed result into growth again.

Jetter
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Joined: 06 Nov 2015, 21:07

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jetter »

Atlantis wrote: 16 May 2020, 09:52 My impression. They will wait as long as possible till the end of the month when there is no money anymore. Then what? To accept or to die? Both are not good
My impression is that CS will wait for the deal between LH and Germany. If LH makes concessions towards Belgium in terms of shareholding or guarantees Germany will expect the same.

Homo Aeroportus
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

brabel wrote: 16 May 2020, 13:51 ...
Let's hope these cuts will indeed result into growth again.
Yeah, reminds me of another oxymoron ; Fighting for peace is like f..ing for virginity.

But dreaming of growth doesn't hurt and is even encouraged as while some are dreaming others are building a future. Theirs.

H.A.

FLYAIR10
Posts: 514
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by FLYAIR10 »

Post by brabel » 16 May 2020, 13:51

So, destinations to be axed are especially south and east Europe.
No more Warsaw, Krakow, Vilnius, Zagreb, St-Petersburg...
The hole east is now without SN present... That's a shame.
I seem to have read somewhere that Warsaw and Vilnius will stay, but at reduced schedule.
At least these airports are not in the tentative list which appeared on this forum yesterday.

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

brabel wrote: 16 May 2020, 13:51 Let's hope these cuts will indeed result into growth again.
They don't need growth (in turnover). They need more profit - as Christina Foerster explained before 'corona' started.

Flanker2
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Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

:ugeek:
Passenger wrote: 16 May 2020, 16:15
brabel wrote: 16 May 2020, 13:51 Let's hope these cuts will indeed result into growth again.
They don't need growth (in turnover). They need more profit - as Christina Foerster explained before 'corona' started.
It's all about the profits right?

Can you explain then why LH are going around asking for money like beggars after years of profits in their other units?
What did they do with their profits?

If it's all about the earnings, why should the taxpayer give up a part of their earnings to Lufthansa?

So Lufthansa only needs to worry about profits and the taxpayers need to worry about protecting the jobs of the people working for Lufthansa?
Shouldn't companies look out for their own people?

Lufthansa should stop growing if they can't take care of the people they already have.

eurojet
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Location: Luxembourg

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by eurojet »

off course it is about profits… LH is a Dax quoted company… It is all about the dividend, and in LH case the underlying is airline revenue and profit. In that sense, CS did a great job the last years, he is in Germany hailed as great manager, running a very profitable dividend paying company… There is not a lot of airline romanticism in this I am afraid.

As to Brussels Airlines, I am sure they will be the first one in one category after COVID.. As the one going on strike and delving its own grave … Trade Unions kind of rule in the Kingdom by the North Sea.

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cathay belgium
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Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by cathay belgium »

Hi,


CS is indeed a great manager.. paying dividend to the shareholders...

But now he can choose between 9 billion state aid or a bankrupcy...

He had is priorities set for sure..

What dividend will the shareholders get with a bankrupcy...?
A good manager pays dividend and take care of the future..

Guess he can join the ex Boeing CEO, paying dividend of the great MAX success while... Well yes...

So, SN workers must accept working for peanuts with a extra smile and when they would go on strike it's their fault also....

Be happy to work hard and get paid less... Daens is back...

Not the whole story sorry...

SN must shrink and redundancies are acceptable in these days to turn back to profit what must be a must... But some social phrases can be included also... Shareholders can have a share when Profit and Future are settled in a good overall service and conditions...

Like a ' goede huisvader' like we used to say ;)

CXB
New types flown 2020 : A321neo,B781

Flanker2
Posts: 1729
Joined: 05 Dec 2012, 23:15

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Flanker2 »

eurojet wrote: 16 May 2020, 20:18 off course it is about profits… LH is a Dax quoted company… It is all about the dividend, and in LH case the underlying is airline revenue and profit. In that sense, CS did a great job the last years, he is in Germany hailed as great manager, running a very profitable dividend paying company… There is not a lot of airline romanticism in this I am afraid.

As to Brussels Airlines, I am sure they will be the first one in one category after COVID.. As the one going on strike and delving its own grave … Trade Unions kind of rule in the Kingdom by the North Sea.
Rumor has it that LH is going to be kicked out of the DAX in a few weeks, so so much for being DAX quoted.
Wouldn't have happened if they had kept the cash or paid off debt instead of dividending it out.
I mean, how many cycles do we have to go through for airline CEO's to realise that this is a freaking cyclical business.
Every 8 to 10 years we hear this "oh my god, this is the worst crisis in aviation ever, we couldn't have predicted it."
Yeah yeah tell that to your gold fish.

I don't think that the taxes that I pay from my earnings should be given to an airline that has given their earnings to their shareholders. No way Jose.
Let them go bankrupt if they can't be managed as sound businesses. This isn't capitalism one day, communism the next day. So when big companies make money it's capitalism, when they lose money it's communism? That's convenient for the 1%ers.


What Lufthansa is asking from the taxpayer is the equivalent of taxpayers asking Lufthansa to hand out free tickets.
Lufthansa would rather burn their aircraft than give me a free ticket, I can assure you that.


A company doesn't have to pay dividends or buy shares back, the retained earnings can stay on the bank account and boost net assets, which in turn raises stock prices.
Berkshire Hathaway proves that this works, look at the price of their A shares.

Jetter
Posts: 478
Joined: 06 Nov 2015, 21:07

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Jetter »

737MAX wrote: 16 May 2020, 20:22
eurojet wrote: 16 May 2020, 20:18

As to Brussels Airlines, I am sure they will be the first one in one category after COVID.. As the one going on strike and delving its own grave … Trade Unions kind of rule in the Kingdom by the North Sea.
Yeah right, blame the workers again.
LH staff never strike, AF/KL even less.

Ignorance at its best again.
KL staff for one indeed rarely strike, and if they do it’s much less disruptive than the strikes of Belgian unions. They even had a strike of 1 hour once. Belgian unions could take a page from their book. :idea:

oldblueeyes
Posts: 91
Joined: 13 Apr 2020, 12:44

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by oldblueeyes »

Flanker2 wrote: 16 May 2020, 19:05 :ugeek:
Passenger wrote: 16 May 2020, 16:15
brabel wrote: 16 May 2020, 13:51 Let's hope these cuts will indeed result into growth again.
They don't need growth (in turnover). They need more profit - as Christina Foerster explained before 'corona' started.
It's all about the profits right?

Can you explain then why LH are going around asking for money like beggars after years of profits in their other units?
What did they do with their profits?

If it's all about the earnings, why should the taxpayer give up a part of their earnings to Lufthansa?

So Lufthansa only needs to worry about profits and the taxpayers need to worry about protecting the jobs of the people working for Lufthansa?
Shouldn't companies look out for their own people?

Lufthansa should stop growing if they can't take care of the people they already have.
If you would make an effort to read the annual report and assuming that ou have the econoomical education to understand it, the answers are public.

Lufthansa had a problem in the early 2010s with a lot of enheritaed fleet of the former companies they bought and bad decisions from pervious managements. Thus a big chuck of money is going into fleet investments.

If you compare the figures of the last years , than you had something like 2,8 bln EUR EBIt as a maximum and above 3 bn annual investments into new fleet. You might blame it, but this is the way the industry is growing and creating jobs - by the way trough flying old A320 until they were 30 years old and so on on the positive side and of course retiring early A346 which were an unfortunate purchase on the downside.

As comparison .. the max dividend paid by the company was 400 Mio last year, employee bonuses in the group were 500 mio.. from big CEO bpnus to the small annual gratification of the front line manager in a remote station.

And now let's come to the numbers - if all of you would have the patience and intelligence to read and understand more than a hedline, than you would see that the discussion is about CREDIT and AID.

So CREDIT has to be paid back and has a higher interest rate - for example in Switzlernad the state takes 2% above the interest rate the banks are charging as price for guarantee in difficult times. So it is rather the case that the Swiss tax payer is earning money on this.

Aid is another topic - and it is linked tio preserving the jobs until the business is rescheduled. And here there is a shareholder effort as well - for example in Germany the state pays 60 to 67% of the salary during shut down times and the company burns shareholder money on improving these figures up to 90%.

So the question on saving jobs is - shoud they dissapear becaue everbody has to be clear that next year in a positive scenario only 50% of the fleet would utilized and employees might have to be unemployed - or will there be a joint effort of all involved parties - state give some money ( they would have the uneploment cost as a burden anyhow), the company supplements it and the employees contributa trough a payy cut and temporary part time to save as many jobs as possible?

If all these people would loose their jobs for the next 2 years - what would be than the cost for the Belgian social systems?

Remember the golden rule of business - the difference between 1 euro spent and 1 euro earned is always 2 euros!

What would be the monthly cost of opportunity for each employee?

Let'S assume they would be unemployed - can we calculate a "cost" of 2.500 euro per month for the Belgian state? Unemployment allowance, additional social system costs that have to be paid by the social systems, additional revenues of the state like VAT, fuel accizes etc for lost additional spending power etc.

On the contrary, if these people stay employed, even if they earn less due to part time, temporary income reductions etc, they are still net payrs in the social systems , pay direct taxes , pay indirect taxes on what they earn above an unemployment allowance etc. So you would have on average maybe 1.500-2.000 euro earnings for the state each month coming from retirement, health , jobless insurances paid both by employee and employer, some little additional indirect taxes as they would have more money in the pocket tha unemployed...

So if you calculate, the cost of opportunity for the Belsian state for each employee of maybe around 4.000 euro /month .. or 50.000 eur / year.

Now let's see the big picture.

If 3.000 employees would be the new taregt size of the company.. and they would need for the next year maybe 1.000, next year 2.000 and coming towards 2023 into the target employment rate... than finding a solution for 2.000 people for the mext 12 months and for 1.000 the year after might have acost of opportunity of 150 mio EUR for the Belgian taxpayer only on direct jobs, multiplicators for airport jobs etc not considered.

Now, would you give as a state a credit of 300 mio if the alternative is to damage your baalnce sheet by 150 mio?

The Swiss seemed to be keep to guarantee for approx 2 years profts of a health compan and let Lufthansa negotiate the remaing abount of aof 15% of the total credit.

Or maybe does the blegian politics not believe that Brussels can be turned into profitability?

Poiu
Posts: 848
Joined: 14 Nov 2015, 09:38

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Poiu »

oldblueeyes wrote: 16 May 2020, 21:16 So if you calculate, the cost of opportunity for the Belsian state for each employee of maybe around 4.000 euro /month .. or 50.000 eur / year.

Now let's see the big picture.

If 3.000 employees would be the new taregt size of the company.. and they would need for the next year maybe 1.000, next year 2.000 and coming towards 2023 into the target employment rate... than finding a solution for 2.000 people for the mext 12 months and for 1.000 the year after might have acost of opportunity of 150 mio EUR for the Belgian taxpayer only on direct jobs, multiplicators for airport jobs etc not considered.

Now, would you give as a state a credit of 300 mio if the alternative is to damage your baalnce sheet by 150 mio?
I must admit I am a bit lost in your logic, but it looks as you support good old Flanker.
If the State saves 150 million a year by keeping 3000 people employed wouldn’t it be better to employ 10000 iso 3000 as the State would win half a billion a year? That was exactly what Sabena did, employ people to reduce unemployment. Sabena had more executive Vice Presidents than aircraft, so the State must have made a fortune with Sabena.
Let’s fold SN and spent 10 billion and build a new pan European company, eg FlankAir or New USSaiR, no unemployment and more money for the State. :idea: :idea:

Passenger
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Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2020

Post by Passenger »

Flanker2 wrote: 16 May 2020, 19:05
Passenger wrote: 16 May 2020, 16:15 Brussels Airlines doesn't need growth (in turnover). They need more profit - as Christina Foerster explained before 'corona' started.
It's all about the profits right? Can you explain then why LH are going around asking for money like beggars after years of profits in their other units? What did they do with their profits?
I can try to give an answer to the questions.

You just have to accept the principle that people like Geert Noels, Ivan Van de Cloot, VOKA and others say about state aid. The ongoing crisis hits that hard that even intrinsically healthy companies get into trouble. And for aviation, it’s even worse because the necessary capital is extremely high: an aircraft is the most expensive single company tool that exists. Company funding therefore is a mix of own capital (ex. ownership, shareholders, profits from the past) and “vreemd vermogen” like deposits. Once that flow is disrupted and a lot of operational expenses cannot be put on hold (example aircraft leases, insurances, maintenance staff), problems arise.
Last edited by sn26567 on 17 May 2020, 11:43, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Inappropriate language removed. Please play the ball, not the player.

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