Brussels Airlines in 2019

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Post Reply
User avatar
lumumba
Posts: 1797
Joined: 04 Sep 2003, 00:00
Location: brussels Europe

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by lumumba »

I my opinion wrong way to try to make a company profitable....but who am I.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Homo Aeroportus
Posts: 1241
Joined: 24 Feb 2007, 18:28
Location: 2300NM due South of North Pole

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

Need to go to Bamako.
CDG-BKO with AF is not appealing as I carry some bulky equipment.
Solution out of BRU : via another airport in the region (DSS, ABJ, OUA, ...) then a connection with Air Senegal or Ivoire but no same-day transit available hence need to stay overnight.
My preference goes for a hotel rather an airport bench but then Oopsie Daisy, except for Senegal you need a visa :(

I booked SN to DSS then, next day flight to BKO with HC (Air Senegal).
Just by curiosity I checked the other members of the LH family :
LH : Error "There are no flights or fares available for the dates you have selected". This on Business, Premium and Economy.
LX : destination entered as "DSS" or "Dakar" returns a "No Items found".
SN : still bookable so seats available at that date.

With friends like these you don't need enemies, do you?

I am so stunned to see that, apparently, you cannot book a BRU-DSS on LH or LX that I would appreciate cross-check by others.
If I didn't goof on that one, what could possibly be the explanation for mutty Lufty and brother LX not to propose the SN flight.

H.A.

PS : forgot this last one. On the Star Alliance web site, BRU-DSS is available ... but only TK via IST !!!

nordikcam
Posts: 1067
Joined: 24 Aug 2008, 10:22
Location: Uccle

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by nordikcam »

Homo Aeroportus wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 20:38

With friends like these you don't need enemies, do you?

I am so stunned to see that, apparently, you cannot book a BRU-DSS on LH or LX that I would appreciate cross-check by others.
If I didn't goof on that one, what could possibly be the explanation for mutty Lufty and brother LX not to propose the SN flight.

H.A.

PS : forgot this last one. On the Star Alliance web site, BRU-DSS is available ... but only TK via IST !!!
SN sleeps since LH cares ... Cristina Foerster has no influence on the future of SN and does not have the phone number of LH ... or LH wants the burial of SN.
It does not take years of discussion to coordinate or see schedules of connection ... it takes will. No will. So...

DeltaWiskey
Posts: 592
Joined: 13 Oct 2010, 18:33

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by DeltaWiskey »

VoloperTe wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 17:42
For widebodies aircraft, A330 fleet is perfect (why not A330-900) and A321LR...
A330's are actually a bit too big for some destinations. In my opinion, the A321(X)LR is a very compelling aircraft and would fit very well in the current network, the only downside is its cargo capacity (especially for Africa), and its high price.

Let's not jump to conclusion regarding today's news, it's only based on rumours so far. But a shrink can't be a big surprise to all of us, Thomas Cook was good for 800-900k passengers per year (about 10% of short haul capacity), so it is widely expected that 2020 will be a shrink due to the TC bankruptcy. We just have to wait a few weeks until more is known about the full "Reboot" plan.

Regarding the booking system: now that SN is not going to integrate in EW, it is going to the same booking engine as OS, LX, LH. So yes, it will be possible in the future to also book SN flights on the website of LH, LX, OS. Rome wasn't built on one day either, just be patient.
And to all of you who just think these are "just" some IT configuration issues, these reservation systems are the core of an airline, these are mega IT-projects that easily go into the tens of millions euros, with many, many parties involved.

PttU
Posts: 379
Joined: 24 Nov 2015, 15:07

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by PttU »

DeltaWiskey wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 21:44
Let's not jump to conclusion regarding today's news, it's only based on rumours so far. But a shrink can't be a big surprise to all of us, Thomas Cook was good for 800-900k passengers per year (about 10% of short haul capacity), so it is widely expected that 2020 will be a shrink due to the TC bankruptcy. We just have to wait a few weeks until more is known about the full "Reboot" plan.
The details may still be covered in rumours, but the shrink is not based on a rumour.
Regarding the booking system: now that SN is not going to integrate in EW, it is going to the same booking engine as OS, LX, LH. So yes, it will be possible in the future to also book SN flights on the website of LH, LX, OS. Rome wasn't built on one day either, just be patient.
And to all of you who just think these are "just" some IT configuration issues, these reservation systems are the core of an airline, these are mega IT-projects that easily go into the tens of millions euros, with many, many parties involved.
Why isn't EW and the rest of the LH-group on the same booking engine anyway? There are LH-flights operated by EW as well. And I assume the same booking engine for both would be cheaper, ergo in the benefit of EW?

convair
Posts: 1812
Joined: 18 Nov 2011, 00:02

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by convair »

DeltaWiskey wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 21:44
Regarding the booking system: now that SN is not going to integrate in EW, it is going to the same booking engine as OS, LX, LH. So yes, it will be possible in the future to also book SN flights on the website of LH, LX, OS. Rome wasn't built on one day either, just be patient.
And to all of you who just think these are "just" some IT configuration issues, these reservation systems are the core of an airline, these are mega IT-projects that easily go into the tens of millions euros, with many, many parties involved.
It's the same the other way around: if you try BRU-ATL, you get to GVA with SN, then to IAD with UAL, then to ATL with UAL again; same thing for the return flights; no mention of the direct LH flights from FRA to ATL and back!

DeltaWiskey
Posts: 592
Joined: 13 Oct 2010, 18:33

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by DeltaWiskey »

PttU wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 22:14
Why isn't EW and the rest of the LH-group on the same booking engine anyway? There are LH-flights operated by EW as well. And I assume the same booking engine for both would be cheaper, ergo in the benefit of EW?
That's one of the reasons why the EW-SN split was announced last June, some big decisions had to be made with regards to IT infrastructure. It was concluded that EW had to go to the simplest, leanest, most cost-efficient solution, but this wouldn't work for a hub-like airline like SN. There is unfortunately not a one-size-fits-all solution.

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4466
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Atlantis »

No surprise at all. Of what is known now. Each airline nowadays is looking at its own destination map. What doesn't perform good will be removed. The same will be for SN. But we can be sure about long haul. This will not be touched and as we could see, this will even grow.

Correct that the A330 is too for certain destinations. That's why triangular flights are still needed and even than they are not full.

For sure the ex-TC planes are too much, even more than those. Like I wrote before, going for a full A319 and A320 for Europe was a too big plane. The A320 fits much better for certain destinations.

As long haul, the B787 would be a better choice.

But OK, that would mean too much of different types. But it could be, Boeing for long haul and Airbus for short and medium haul

I wish them all success bcs aviation is not easy. A lot of companies are suffering for the moment.

Jetter
Posts: 476
Joined: 06 Nov 2015, 21:07

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Jetter »

nordikcam wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 21:14
SN sleeps since LH cares ... Cristina Foerster has no influence on the future of SN and does not have the phone number of LH
Do you know this for a fact or is this just your imagination? If true, maybe she could score his number if she would dress better. ;)
DeltaWiskey wrote:
23 Oct 2019, 21:44
Let's not jump to conclusion regarding today's news, it's only based on rumours so far. But a shrink can't be a big surprise to all of us, Thomas Cook was good for 800-900k passengers per year (about 10% of short haul capacity), so it is widely expected that 2020 will be a shrink due to the TC bankruptcy. We just have to wait a few weeks until more is known about the full "Reboot" plan.
Indeed, the name 'reboot' was known many months ago and that could only mean a shrink. Adding the Thomas Cook disaster at the hands of Bernard Gustin made it absolutely sure SN has to shrink. Thus we don't know much more with the revelation of today.

Flanker3
Posts: 45
Joined: 04 Feb 2018, 00:20

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Flanker3 »

There is no willpower at SN management.
The talented ones with willpower have already left the boat frustrated.

Thomas Cook's failure is a bummer, but part of the travel agencies have been taken over by Wamos so not all is lost. I personally don't understand why SN didn't make a bid on it, considering that as major creditors, they could have secured a good deal and set it up as a separate subsidiary with low risks.
To stick it to Gustin is unfair.

About merging IT systems and Rome not being built in one night. Well, they are part of the LH group since 10 years, sharing the same mileage program. It's really not that hard to merge IT systems and it should have been one of the first priorities.
As you can see, LH is also not properly run.

LH has many fires brewing.
OS not profitable and VIE has now become an ultra-competitive environment. I doubt that OS will survive, LH has clearly lost control of the situation.

With SN announcing a retreat in fanfare, I wonder if we won't see a massive LCC offensive. I'm thinking about Lauda, Easyjet and Wizzair.
I won't be surprised if LH loses its grip on BRU too.

SN is well-positioned overall.
Quite frankly, fares are competitive, they offer decent timings, decent services, the Loop program is working well.
I have also seen progress at Eurowings, they are really transforming into a pan-European airline to the image of Spohr.

So I wil reiterate some suggestions from the past. Narrowbodies to Africa, widebodies to Asia, real business class product on short haul, better profiling and segmentation for yield management to maximise business with high unit margin while maximising leisure with volume to get the most revenue from both segments.
More regional routes to connect more dots and feed nto the network.
Offer more frequencies to Italy and Spain in the high season. This is where Ryanair is making its money.

pijaleu
Posts: 271
Joined: 15 Feb 2007, 16:14
Location: Holsbeek

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by pijaleu »

Just my opinion:

Starting to reduce frequency on leisure destinations unless a new deal with Wamos can be reached .
Also some smaller destinations might dissapear .

On Long haul, axing IAD.
Hoping on one extra destination in Afrika (NBO could work?)
They need wide bodies, just for cargo.

And have aircraft that are reliable. Too much technical problems lately .

rwandan-flyer
Posts: 440
Joined: 19 Dec 2010, 12:30

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by rwandan-flyer »

So I wil reiterate some suggestions from the past. Narrowbodies to Africa, widebodies to Asia, real business class product on short haul, better profiling and segmentation for yield management to maximise business with high unit margin while maximising leisure with volume to get the most revenue from both segments.
More regional routes to connect more dots and feed nto the network.
Offer more frequencies to Italy and Spain in the high season. This is where Ryanair is making its money.

Africa is not an easy market, even if you call Brussels Airlines or Air France, you have to be strong to be the leader. Air France is also struggling in Africa. There are new big competitors, in Africa

Each destinations have a specifity about cargo demand, business demand, leisure demand, VFR demand. Turkish Airlines uses both narrow bodies and wide bodies aircraft to Africa. They will add A330 to Kinhsasa, in 2020, replacing the B737-800 / 900. https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... es-in-s20/ More and more West African destinations are now operated with the TK A330.

Using only narrow body to Africa, is probably not the best solution.
Just my opinion:

Starting to reduce frequency on leisure destinations unless a new deal with Wamos can be reached .
Also some smaller destinations might dissapear .

On Long haul, axing IAD.
Hoping on one extra destination in Afrika (NBO could work?)
They need wide bodies, just for cargo.

And have aircraft that are reliable. Too much technical problems lately .
I think, there was an agreeement with Lufthansa to resume service to Nairobi, while SN has resumed Accra service, served by Lufthansa. It's hard to say, if SN will resume Nairobi service. Synergy works also like this. KLM is focusing on East Africa and Southern Africa, while Air France is focusing on West Africa and Central Africa.

Both airlines recently started service on same destinations, but flights were quickly suspended

KLM resumed, Miami, Mauritius, Freetown and Monronvia services already served by AF, but flights to Sierra Leone and Liberia were suspended.
Air France resumed services Kuala Lumpur and Abu Dhabi already served by KLM, but flights were suspended.

KLM ended Abuja service, replaced by Air France. Kano service was not replaced

Some "new" common destinations are still there : Air France has resumed Taipei, Nairobi & Quito services, started Vancouver and Panama services. Destinations already served by KLM. KLM resumed service to Mumbai, already served by Air France
Last edited by rwandan-flyer on 24 Oct 2019, 11:00, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4466
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Atlantis »

pijaleu wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 09:31
Just my opinion:

Starting to reduce frequency on leisure destinations unless a new deal with Wamos can be reached .
Also some smaller destinations might dissapear .

On Long haul, axing IAD.
Hoping on one extra destination in Afrika (NBO could work?)
They need wide bodies, just for cargo.

And have aircraft that are reliable. Too much technical problems lately .
No way regarding IAD, they are going to make it year round as from next year. Those flights are needed

User avatar
sounilr21
Posts: 32
Joined: 12 May 2019, 14:11
Location: Namur, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by sounilr21 »

Unfortunately it's planned. Therefore no surprise.

Shrinkage of SN is maybe necessary to better jump in long term.

Lufthansa will outing the A330-200s on SN's fleet but also the Boeing 777-200s and 767-300s from Austrian by 2025.

https://www.air-cosmos.com/article/luft ... eing-21895

OS is also struggling but to a lesser extent. Vienna VIE has become very (too) competitive. Lauda (Ryanair), Level, Wizzair, etc ...

the role of SN in Star Alliance could be reduced.
Transatlantic's routes could be targeted by a reduction or a cancellation :
- New York (JFK or Newark) is high-competitive and then JFK could be deleted in long term or transferred to United from Newark.

Star Alliance partners could play a very important role. For example for transatlantic routes ;
Air Canada (and only AC) could operate Montreal and Toronto all year long.
United could operate Washington (2x/day maybe with a mix of 777 and 767), Newark (2x/day maybe with a mix of 787-10 and 757) and Chicago (1x/day).
To compensate for a possible cancellation of transatlantic routes operated by SN "reboot".

SN would be focused exclusively on Africa. His core business.

Leisure flights in Europe could also be canceled and leave to Low-cost companies (Ryanair,...).

This is bad news for Brussels Airlines but not necessarily for Brussels Airport. Other operators, other alliances might be interested to try a commercial offensive on BRU. It's just an idea. Not a concrete thing.

Homo Aeroportus
Posts: 1241
Joined: 24 Feb 2007, 18:28
Location: 2300NM due South of North Pole

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Homo Aeroportus »

Open question :

Has anyone experienced an unsolicited change in seat reservation lately?
It happened to me 4 times (long haul) that the seat I had reserved ended up being changed (from window to aisle, no just a row number) later in the process.
Outbound to ACC last week I saw that change in the SN system that assigned me an aisle seat next to an occupied seat while the "Comfort" forward cabin was less than half full and a number of windows seats were still available. The agent at check-in mentioned that he had heard that before as well.

Anyone having the same experience?

Thanks,

H.A.

theeuropean
Posts: 203
Joined: 22 Dec 2009, 17:35

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by theeuropean »

If I may interject, the reboot plan means some reductions and streamlining. I don't mind that they cut unprofitable route or change timings but they have to keep the flow into their longhaul operations.

I prefer a core lean network that brings in money (also in times of economic slow down/crisis). More destinations would be great but that should wait until the economy starts to improve a little more. SN already fought FR and VY before, they know their tactics and will be able to use that again.

I feel they also need to get together or work better with other Star Alliance partners, SK is mind boggling they don't work closer together - but I can guess why, it's the next door neighbor up the street that the step mother has an awkward relationship with.

OS LH fleet is so old - 2026 they will be more ancient than dinosaurs - ok I exaggerate but that's reality and it doesn't help with fuel prices. OS, from what I have seen is not truly ready for the onslaught that is about to happen. Wizz Air has stated that its base there is profitable so why let go. Lauda will go EW way for growth while already starting to aim for profits next year. They are also starting routes OS will for the summer so this really does not bode well for OS - even if it is a network carrier.

EW is still a mess and I have also not seen them take drastic action.

Swiss and LH are safe for now, but if Easyjet becomes more aggressive in GVA Swiss will have a problem there. They were already told once to make that base profitable or more profitable.

At least SN is being more proactive.

Finally, I feel that there are internal rumblings (we hear it from time to time). There is no real direction and my feeling is Spohr is just sitting there hoping something good will happen. I also believe it is only a matter of time when low cost carriers start moving in also to MUC, FRA and Zurich.

Let's see apart from this reboot plan, I have a feeling we will hopefully get more news around March to see what is actually happening.

PttU
Posts: 379
Joined: 24 Nov 2015, 15:07

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by PttU »

Flanker3 wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 08:53
So I wil reiterate some suggestions from the past. Narrowbodies to Africa, widebodies to Asia, real business class product on short haul, better profiling and segmentation for yield management to maximise business with high unit margin while maximising leisure with volume to get the most revenue from both segments.
More regional routes to connect more dots and feed nto the network.
Offer more frequencies to Italy and Spain in the high season. This is where Ryanair is making its money.
So...
New planes for Africa... (or did you mean A319/320 narrowbodies to Africa?)
New destinations in Asia...
More regional routes...
More frequencies...

The reboot plan is about downsizing some ops, cutting back, not about more-more-more and new-new-new. The plan is about reducing costs to (hope to) make room for future investments, not the other way around: not about investments now to (hope to) be more profitable in the future.

User avatar
Conti764
Posts: 1775
Joined: 21 Sep 2007, 23:21

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Conti764 »

Flanker3 wrote:
24 Oct 2019, 08:53
There is no willpower at SN management.
The talented ones with willpower have already left the boat frustrated.

Thomas Cook's failure is a bummer, but part of the travel agencies have been taken over by Wamos so not all is lost. I personally don't understand why SN didn't make a bid on it, considering that as major creditors, they could have secured a good deal and set it up as a separate subsidiary with low risks.
To stick it to Gustin is unfair.

About merging IT systems and Rome not being built in one night. Well, they are part of the LH group since 10 years, sharing the same mileage program. It's really not that hard to merge IT systems and it should have been one of the first priorities.
As you can see, LH is also not properly run.

LH has many fires brewing.
OS not profitable and VIE has now become an ultra-competitive environment. I doubt that OS will survive, LH has clearly lost control of the situation.

With SN announcing a retreat in fanfare, I wonder if we won't see a massive LCC offensive. I'm thinking about Lauda, Easyjet and Wizzair.
I won't be surprised if LH loses its grip on BRU too.

SN is well-positioned overall.
Quite frankly, fares are competitive, they offer decent timings, decent services, the Loop program is working well.
I have also seen progress at Eurowings, they are really transforming into a pan-European airline to the image of Spohr.

So I wil reiterate some suggestions from the past. Narrowbodies to Africa, widebodies to Asia, real business class product on short haul, better profiling and segmentation for yield management to maximise business with high unit margin while maximising leisure with volume to get the most revenue from both segments.
More regional routes to connect more dots and feed nto the network.
Offer more frequencies to Italy and Spain in the high season. This is where Ryanair is making its money.
"Narrowbodies to Africa", how do you handle cargo? Have seperate ops with full freighters?

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4466
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by Atlantis »

What Flanker3 says makes sense. He was saying this already years ago and see what airlines are doing in meantime.... Sending narrow body to Africa.

But there is also an other side of the medal. To destinations with a lot of cargo is much better to use the WB. To destinations where cargo is not the main factor, a NB can be used, A321.

We know that on certain routes the A330 is too big

User avatar
lumumba
Posts: 1797
Joined: 04 Sep 2003, 00:00
Location: brussels Europe

Re: Brussels Airlines in 2019

Post by lumumba »

Luanda is one of them....
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Post Reply