Air Belgium in 2019

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Atlantis
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Atlantis »

Regarding Martinique and Guadeloupe. As it was mentioned before, in favor of France because of obvious reasons.

When we have a look at two other destinations, where one of them was already served from BRU via TUI, Curacao, and the never start up of Sint-Maarten, it was also not working from Belgium. Both are very popular destinations from Holland. Sint Maarten will have more flights again in Holland while to Curacao they will have even 12 flights a week. From Belgium is was not working. Belgians are more for Dominican Island and Mexico.

So, will it work for KF? We will see but they had already some examples of others in front of them. But for the prices they are offering + 30kg of luggage and free meals, I'm wondering how fast this new loan will be spend....

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Passenger »

Tourism figures for Martinique, for 2016:
pdf 7,7MB:
https://martinique.media.tourinsoft.eu/ ... -modif.pdf

JOVAN
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by JOVAN »

Atlantis wrote:
23 Jul 2019, 21:59
Regarding Martinique and Guadeloupe. As it was mentioned before, in favor of France because of obvious reasons.

When we have a look at two other destinations, where one of them was already served from BRU via TUI, Curacao, and the never start up of Sint-Maarten, it was also not working from Belgium. Both are very popular destinations from Holland. Sint Maarten will have more flights again in Holland while to Curacao they will have even 12 flights a week. From Belgium is was not working. Belgians are more for Dominican Island and Mexico.

So, will it work for KF? We will see but they had already some examples of others in front of them. But for the prices they are offering + 30kg of luggage and free meals, I'm wondering how fast this new loan will be spend....
The TUI FLY flights actually never took place as there was this terrible Hurricane Irma, which destroyed big parts of the island. Even KL and AF stopped flying for a while, then took up the destination again in combination with another airport in teh area (Curacao for KL I believe it was).Only recently they came back to their +- normal frequencies.
So we do not know if flight from Belgium would have been successful.

For sure the flights to Caribbean islands belonging to NL or F can be successful from BRU or CRL with good marketing and collaboration with French/Dutch agency. And good prices.

The TUI FLY flights to Cancun and Montego bay already attract a lot of French & Dutch PAX.
French people flying in from Marseille, Nice, Nantes or taking FlixBus from quite far in France to take this flighs.
The catching area is there and is big, for BRU and CRL. PotentialOK, PricesOK, ConnectionsOK, ServiceOK, ..==> CUSTOMERS come.

It will be a challenge and probably a last chance for AB to survive. But concept should work.

nordikcam
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by nordikcam »

Rude competition ... From the only Paris Orly today to Pointe à Pitre ...3 flights Corsair/Air Caribbean - 2 flights AF / KL and 1 flight IB / Level

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sn26567
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by sn26567 »

nordikcam wrote:
24 Jul 2019, 13:55
Rude competition ... From the only Paris Orly today to Pointe à Pitre ...3 flights Corsair/Air Caribbean - 2 flights AF / KL and 1 flight IB / Level
And how many Belgian and Dutch passengers on all these flights? They could more advantageously fly from CRL!
André
ex Sabena #26567

convair
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by convair »

nordikcam wrote:
24 Jul 2019, 13:55
Rude competition ... From the only Paris Orly today to Pointe à Pitre ...3 flights Corsair/Air Caribbean - 2 flights AF / KL and 1 flight IB / Level
At least the demand is there! So, with good marketing, good service and good prices, they should be able to carve out a sufficient portion of the business.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Passenger »

Passenger wrote:
24 Jul 2019, 11:12
Tourism figures for Martinique, for 2016:
pdf 7,7MB:
https://martinique.media.tourinsoft.eu/ ... -modif.pdf
And some tourism figures for Guadeloupe, for 2016 or 2017:
pdf 2,4MB:
https://www.regionguadeloupe.fr/fileadm ... pteurs.pdf

TLspotting
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by TLspotting »

BA93/BA92 extended for 4 more days, until 22 August 2019. (Local times)

BA93 LHR - YYZ 13:05 - 15:55 A343 1234567 09/06/2019 - 22/08/2019

BA92 YYZ - LHR 18:30 - 06:40+1 A343 1234567 09/06/2019 - 22/08/2019

Which means that we can see 2 AB at LHR on the same day, between 18 August and 22 August.

CAI schedule :

BA155 LHR - CAI 17:20 - 23:20 A343 -----6- 18/08/2019 - 26/10/2019

BA155 LHR - CAI 17:15 - 23:15 A343 12345-7 19/08/2019 - 25/10/2019

BA154 CAI - LHR 08:00 - 12:10 A343 1234567 19/08/2019 - 26/10/2019
Hi. I'm T., spotter and aviation geek. Join me on Facebook & Twitter @TLspotting

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Passenger »

Financial year 2018: 18.199.902 € loss...

Source: National Bank Belgium =
http://cri.nbb.be/bc9/web/catalog?lang= ... 0648801623

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OO-JFP
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by OO-JFP »

by Passenger » 31 Jul 2019 08:10 am
Financial year 2018: 18.199.902 € loss...
Source: National Bank Belgium =
http://cri.nbb.be/bc9/web/catalog?lang= ... 0648801623
Interesting information.
Would you think it is possible to find one person/airline company (who makes use of them)/government (regional or federal) who cares? :oops:

Even on this website you can find mid-year results of AFR/KLM, LH Group, Airbus,...
ABB: full year results, nothing!

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luchtzak
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by luchtzak »

The other airlines are stock market listed companies, they have stricter rules than Air Belgium.

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Passenger »

Passenger wrote:
31 Jul 2019, 08:10
Financial year 2018: 18.199.902 € loss...
Source: National Bank Belgium =
http://cri.nbb.be/bc9/web/catalog?lang= ... 0648801623
Apart from the obvious fact that this result is very bad, there isn’t much new information available. So let’s add, to the above, some relevant info from that long article in L’Echo (16/07/2019):
La Sogepa a converti son prêt de 4 millions d'euros en capital. Les autres actionnaires (SRIW, SFPI et Sabena Aerospace) ont, de leur côté, réinjecté un million d’euros…
https://www.lecho.be/entreprises/aviati ... 45568.html
The operational result 2018 (-17.830.001) is bad. The nett result 2018 is bad (18.299.902). The cumulated loss 2018 is bad (-21.329.345). Their eigen vermogen / capitaux propres on 31/12/2018 was bad (-1.329.345), but this has improved in May 2019 with some new cash injections by shareholders. Hence the -1.329.345 is irrelevant.

The annual account and the article in L'Echo show that so far, more then 25.000.000 € has been invested. But the cumulated loss show it's more "burned" then "invested".

Some info on the shareholders: the annual acount shows how it was on 31st Dec 2018. However, that structure has changed in May 2019, when many shareholders have opened their wallets (cfr L'Echo). On 31st Dec 2018, these were the owners:
49,99% Aviation Investment Holding (Abramov, Rautio, Sumchenko, Yip/Peng)
10,25% 3T Management & Associates (Terzakis)
5,01% Sabena Aerospace Engineering
12,5% SPFI
22,24% SRIW


In his official BY2018 comment, external revisor Mazars has made a remark about the "Immobilisations incorporelles / Immateriële vaste activa": 6.937.817 € (2017 was 4.112.008). These are investments, R&D, licenses, goodwill... Example: the slots at Hong Kong. Mazars writes about this: “…il est entendu que ces actifs ne peuvent-être reconnus au bilan que dans une perspective de continuité…” But with the closure of HKG, the continuity is gone… Will the 6.937.817 then have to move from Activa to Passiva on 31st 2019?

Linty
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Linty »

Maybe I'm not perfectly placed to translate business logic to the Airline business. But making loss in the first years of a company is not that exceptional. You have to invest. Besides they had bad luck with a few external factors you can not have completely under control. This business is evolving rapidly, as a company you are not always able to react in a short term.
Nevertheless I see positive signs to touch other markets. They react flexible. You can do always better, it remains a huge challenge.

nordikcam
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by nordikcam »

Linty wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 11:15
Maybe I'm not perfectly placed to translate business logic to the Airline business. But making loss in the first years of a company is not that exceptional. You have to invest. Besides they had bad luck with a few external factors you can not have completely under control. This business is evolving rapidly, as a company you are not always able to react in a short term.
Nevertheless I see positive signs to touch other markets. They react flexible. You can do always better, it remains a huge challenge.
Choosing Hong Kong when CX is opening BRU HKG is an external factor ? Choosing CRL where the runway is too short is an external factor ? Choosing Airbus 340 is an external factor ? I doubt !

Linty
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Linty »

nordikcam wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 13:51
Choosing Hong Kong when CX is opening BRU HKG is an external factor ? Choosing CRL where the runway is too short is an external factor ? Choosing Airbus 340 is an external factor ? I doubt !
Maybe it was. Or in case you know the hundreds and hundreds of decision points by heart, do not hesitate to communicate them. I would be very interested.

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Airbus330lover
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Airbus330lover »

BTW HKG was chosen long time before the coming of CX. Long time to get the AOC make it more difficult

nordikcam
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by nordikcam »

Airbus330lover wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 16:18
BTW HKG was chosen long time before the coming of CX. Long time to get the AOC make it more difficult
Absolutely, but can not we adapt? They did this by leaving HKG when they realized that their partners were unreliable. That too ... it's external and so not their fault? They had signed a partnership without knowing that they were not talking to the right people. Special!
If the French West Indies are the Grail why not have started with these islands that were already there last year?

Passenger
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by Passenger »

Airbus330lover wrote:
05 Aug 2019, 16:18
BTW HKG was chosen long time before the coming of CX. Long time to get the AOC make it more difficult
Indeed - this was the timeline:
Passenger wrote:
14 May 2019, 11:47
Air Belgium’s first announcement was in August 2016, with this remark on their Linkedin page: “to commence revenu operations [to Hong Kong] later this year”.

Cathay's first announcement was in August 2017, via a press release “first flight to Brussels on 25 March 2018”.

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BrightCedars
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by BrightCedars »

CX beat them on opening HKG due to many factors and then it was an uphill battle they couldn't win.

They got quads, right. Would they have qualified for ETOPS from the start without any history? I doubt.

CRL is another story. BRU was certainly too greedy for a local newcomer. Then Wallonia saw potential (remember CRL just 20 year ago?) and moved in.

I certainly did not expect them to turn a profit in year one. And they certainly didn't plan to loose that much.

I still wish them all the best for the future even if I have been cynical about them in the past.

rwandan-flyer
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Re: Air Belgium in 2019

Post by rwandan-flyer »

They could be a Belgium XL Airways or Corsair, by focusing on some leisures destinations, where there is a big point to point trafic. If Belgium Air Transport wants to be competitive, they also need others Belgium airlines, not only Brussels Airlines. I really hope that Air Belgium, Air Antwerp will succeed.

In France, we lost many airlines, between late 90s and early 2000s, such as Air Liberté, Air Littoral, AOM. Most of them were badly managed, but they have left a gap in many airports, in French Province. Ryanair, easyJet and Volotea have filled the gap. Competition from French airline is low. Air France can't do everything, and the airline was always focused on its Parisians hubs (Orly and Roissy).

France is the only country in Europe, with the highest numbers foreign airlines bases:

Vueling: Orly & Roissy, they closed Toulouse based few years ago.
EasyJet: Nantes, Lyon, Toulouse, Nice, Bordeaux
Volotea: Nantes, Bordeaux, Toulouse, Marseille, Strasbourg (another one will open by 2 years)
Nowergian Long Haul: Roissy
Ryanair: Marseille & Bordeaux
Level: Orly

I know in BE, there are not domestic service, and there few airports in the Province. But looks Netherlands. Transavia, Corendon Dutch Airlines & TUI Ned, have a big presence in other Dutch airports, meaning, they are not a big presence of foreign airlines at Rotterdam, Eindhoven,...Ryanair has closed its base at Eindhoven (manly due to a Dutch Court Rulling). They still have a presence at ENI.

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