Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

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Ansett
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Ansett » 20 Jul 2019, 10:14

@ Jovan : You are totally right. I was only trying to solve a problem which will not be solved otherwise. Unless, of course, orders are giving by the hierarchy as in any police or military corps, and are executed and obeyed.
I don't know on what terms the federal police agents are recruted and to what extent they can be forced to work at BRU (even if they don't want to).
My interpretation, fwiw, is that we (you and I) have a different perception of what is a "luxurious work environment" than these agents. Probalby, they don't want this "luxurious work environment" and would prefer some kind of 9 to 5 work schedule in their home city or village, enabling them to watch football games or "Thuis" or "Familie" in the evening.
I know I am playing guessing games when saying this, but most people just want a 9 to 5 job and working at an airport does not make that possible.
Part of the solution is, of course, having automated boarder control gates which function properly 24/7.
And then, as Jovan said probably very relevantly : "The top of the police is very often manned by non-competent people".
In this regard, let's hope that mentality will change in Belgium.. THIS makes us really look like a third-world country, i.e. appointing incompetent people at (high) responsibility posts.
In the meantime, I come back to my previous post: money will make the system work, whatever its origin, even if you dislike the idea and even if I agree with you, b720.
Last edited by Ansett on 20 Jul 2019, 10:19, edited 1 time in total.

Ansett
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Ansett » 20 Jul 2019, 10:18

@ Atlantis on Skytrax. Would LH have paid Skytrax to be rated as a 5-Star Airline which they are NOT ? (sorry off topic). If they did, it would be great to uncover the truth !

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Conti764 » 20 Jul 2019, 12:30

b720 wrote:
20 Jul 2019, 09:05
Ansett wrote:
20 Jul 2019, 00:38
Why don't federal "policemen" like to work at BRU ?
The answer to this question is crucial to solve the problem.
A simple (simplistic) solution to the problem is money.
They will love to work at BRU if they are paid more (for instance, through bonuses).
There is no money you will say.
OK, the let's increase the airport taxe by ? 50 cents, one euro ? per passenger !
Additonal money (whatever its origin) will make the system work.
They will fight to be allowed to work at BRU if it pays really well.
But still, why don't they now want to work at BRU ?
I have an answer, but not sure it's the right one.
Anyone volunteering to answer the question ?
And why are they to be paid more? It is a very luxurious environment to work at, compared to many other places they are deployed at. No hardship at all! Security risk? That is part of of their overall job..they are at risk whenever they are called to any situation. Taxes at BRU are high enough as they are.
They'll have to come up with some incentive to attract and keep officers.

Back in the days of the Rijkswacht/Gendarmerie it was easy. You were assigned to a post and only based on seniority hou could leave (often closer to home). Nowadays people are free to join any avaiable unit/zone even if they're straight out of police school. So young officers who are assigned to the border police leave again as soon as possible. Combined with older officers going on pension.

Many of them don't like to be in a cubicle for over 6 hours per shift...

Ansett
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Ansett » 20 Jul 2019, 13:55

You've got a point, when you say it is boring to be in a cubicle/booth for 6 hours. However, I presume they have one or two breaks.
Taking that relevant point into account, I also presume it should be possible to organize a rotation between these boarder police officers to avoid that they do the same job for days in a row.

b720
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by b720 » 20 Jul 2019, 14:33

I assume that the job is mentally stimulating as well.. could not be monotonous as they are detecting forgeries etc..they follow training and very regular updates concerning international passports and new regulations ..
I am sure that there are much more boring police jobs they can find themselves in..

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Conti764 » 20 Jul 2019, 17:59

I'm not sure boring is the right term. Repitive covers it better, I guess. And they have to stay focused since everybody who entered but wasn't supposed to can be traced back to the officer who let him in. And all that with hundreds or even more people queuing and being pissed off (understandably) after a huge waiting time.

One solution might be adopting the e-gates. If I'm not mistaken (I've been told) these gates only work with passports. Updating or replacing them to accept Belgian e-id's would mean no Belgian citizen (still the bulk at BRU) would have to pass a fysical control.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by sn26567 » 20 Jul 2019, 22:32

Conti764 wrote:
20 Jul 2019, 17:59

One solution might be adopting the e-gates. If I'm not mistaken (I've been told) these gates only work with passports. Updating or replacing them to accept Belgian e-id's would mean no Belgian citizen (still the bulk at BRU) would have to pass a fysical control.
I cannot understand why the e-gates have not been conceived from the beginning to be able to scan Belgian ID cards, representing probably 50% of the travellers. Also many other European ID cards have a chip that could easily be read by an automatic machine at the gates, thus relieving police officers from checking thousands of passengers and giving them more time for suspicious cases.
André
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JOVAN
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by JOVAN » 22 Jul 2019, 22:14

Conti764 wrote:
20 Jul 2019, 12:30
b720 wrote:
20 Jul 2019, 09:05
Ansett wrote:
20 Jul 2019, 00:38
Why don't federal "policemen" like to work at BRU ?
The answer to this question is crucial to solve the problem.
A simple (simplistic) solution to the problem is money.
They will love to work at BRU if they are paid more (for instance, through bonuses).
There is no money you will say.
OK, the let's increase the airport taxe by ? 50 cents, one euro ? per passenger !
Additonal money (whatever its origin) will make the system work.
They will fight to be allowed to work at BRU if it pays really well.
But still, why don't they now want to work at BRU ?
I have an answer, but not sure it's the right one.
Anyone volunteering to answer the question ?
And why are they to be paid more? It is a very luxurious environment to work at, compared to many other places they are deployed at. No hardship at all! Security risk? That is part of of their overall job..they are at risk whenever they are called to any situation. Taxes at BRU are high enough as they are.
They'll have to come up with some incentive to attract and keep officers.

Back in the days of the Rijkswacht/Gendarmerie it was easy. You were assigned to a post and only based on seniority hou could leave (often closer to home). Nowadays people are free to join any avaiable unit/zone even if they're straight out of police school. So young officers who are assigned to the border police leave again as soon as possible. Combined with older officers going on pension.

Many of them don't like to be in a cubicle for over 6 hours per shift...
We really have a crisis of authority in this country.

Too many ministers of mobility, but everything seems to come to a stop.

Fragmentation is disastrous. All noses are in different directions it seems.

How can you not have enough policemen to organize a decent Passport control system, with respect for the PAX. There are 40.000 of them in Belgium ?!?!
What are they doing. They have the help of thousands of intelligent cameras.

Mr. Feist should make this passport control issue a priority. Convince the local commander to put more officers during peak hours.

With a strong Minister for this Departemnt, things could change... :roll:

b720
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by b720 » 22 Jul 2019, 23:48

Conti764 wrote:
20 Jul 2019, 17:59
I'm not sure boring is the right term. Repitive covers it better, I guess. And they have to stay focused since everybody who entered but wasn't supposed to can be traced back to the officer who let him in. And all that with hundreds or even more people queuing and being pissed off (understandably) after a huge waiting time.

One solution might be adopting the e-gates. If I'm not mistaken (I've been told) these gates only work with passports. Updating or replacing them to accept Belgian e-id's would mean no Belgian citizen (still the bulk at BRU) would have to pass a fysical control.
The e-gates process Belgian IDs i’ve Used my ID several times passing through the e-gates at BRU. Kids under 12 (hence families) must use the manned border control.

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luchtzak
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by luchtzak » 23 Jul 2019, 00:18

Recently, I took a flight from Toronto to Brussels. The gate agent checked my passport and that was it! No further passport check, no nothing ! I don't see why any country would check a passport while leaving the country ...

I do understand the passport check while coming into the country though, but that's normal !

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Jetter » 23 Jul 2019, 00:40

luchtzak wrote:
23 Jul 2019, 00:18
Recently, I took a flight from Toronto to Brussels. The gate agent checked my passport and that was it! No further passport check, no nothing ! I don't see why any country would check a passport while leaving the country ...
A number of reasons:

- To check if people overstayed their visa;
- To catch fugitives;
- To make people pay outstanding fines;
- To check if minors travel with an authorized adult.

etc.

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luchtzak
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by luchtzak » 23 Jul 2019, 15:02

sn26567 wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 22:53
Passenger wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 22:31
- Scanning baggage system / Système de scanning de bagages;
For this one, did they select the cheapest, or the most reliable contractor?
Brussels Airport apologizes after luggage system mishap and offers €50 vouchers to affected passengers

https://www.aviation24.be/airports/brus ... assengers/

Homo Aeroportus
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Homo Aeroportus » 23 Jul 2019, 15:20

Meanwhile in Duesseldorf ....

17JUL
DUS Luggage Hall.jpg
See : https://www.thelocal.de/20190717/chaos- ... -breakdown

Say what you want but these Germans are damn good when it comes to organize a chaos.
;)

Don't know if the PAX will get the 50 EUR vouchers though.

H.A.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by sn26567 » 23 Jul 2019, 16:19

Homo Aeroportus wrote:
23 Jul 2019, 15:20
Meanwhile in Duesseldorf ....

17JUL

DUS Luggage Hall.jpg

See : https://www.thelocal.de/20190717/chaos- ... -breakdown

Say what you want but these Germans are damn good when it comes to organize a chaos.
;)

Don't know if the PAX will get the 50 EUR vouchers though.

H.A.
Ha ha! And some Belgians swear they will never fly from Brussels because Düsseldorf is so much better! :mrgreen:
André
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JOVAN
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by JOVAN » 23 Jul 2019, 17:46

JOVAN wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 20:56
Stij wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 16:50
Atlantis wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 14:21
...
Your responses are the perfect example of an organisation that is centered around itself and doesn't even have an idea how their faults ruin their customers experience. Please google "Copernicus".

Could be we don't understand airline business, but you don't understand passenger business.

So. it's perfectly normal for Brussels Airport that in 3 months time, 3 days most of your pax leave without there luggage without ANY compensation? Brussels Airport screws up... passengers pay for whatever they need... without any compensation because the airline is not at fault.
Atlantis,

when you see Mr. Feist these next days please ask him to first present his apologies to all users of the airport for the malfunctions happening over and over again. An adbertisemnt inall newspapers can help.
ASk him to promise COMPENSATION to all users who got delays, travelled without luggage. etc.
I hope TEST AANKOOP / TEST ACHAT will open a Class action, so you take it seriously..

Also ask Mr. Feist to make clear what is done/ wil be done now to avoid this breakdowns in the future.
Not empty bla bla . Real measures and timing.

Accepting, recognizing there are huge problems and apologizing for them is a first step.
DENIAL is no longer possible.

Then promise to work on shorter queues at immigration, check in, baggaga delivery, shorter transfers, taxi queues, ..
Cleaner welcome area, exit, parking areas etc..
That is for the PAX.

then eventually talk to the airlines, your first degree customers. BRU is very expensive and offers a product so-so. They expect more and better services.

Once things are under control try to become a Top 20 Airport in Europe in terms of PAX (= a good measure !!). Next continue to become Top 15.
With Happy PAX it is possible.

Cheers
Excuses and compensation done: that is a good start in the process of showing respect to PAX.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Conti764 » 23 Jul 2019, 18:04

JOVAN wrote:
22 Jul 2019, 22:14
Conti764 wrote:
20 Jul 2019, 12:30
b720 wrote:
20 Jul 2019, 09:05


And why are they to be paid more? It is a very luxurious environment to work at, compared to many other places they are deployed at. No hardship at all! Security risk? That is part of of their overall job..they are at risk whenever they are called to any situation. Taxes at BRU are high enough as they are.
They'll have to come up with some incentive to attract and keep officers.

Back in the days of the Rijkswacht/Gendarmerie it was easy. You were assigned to a post and only based on seniority hou could leave (often closer to home). Nowadays people are free to join any avaiable unit/zone even if they're straight out of police school. So young officers who are assigned to the border police leave again as soon as possible. Combined with older officers going on pension.

Many of them don't like to be in a cubicle for over 6 hours per shift...
We really have a crisis of authority in this country.

Too many ministers of mobility, but everything seems to come to a stop.

Fragmentation is disastrous. All noses are in different directions it seems.

How can you not have enough policemen to organize a decent Passport control system, with respect for the PAX. There are 40.000 of them in Belgium ?!?!
What are they doing. They have the help of thousands of intelligent cameras.

Mr. Feist should make this passport control issue a priority. Convince the local commander to put more officers during peak hours.

With a strong Minister for this Departemnt, things could change... :roll:
Yes, there are about 40k police officers in Belgium, of which roughly 11000 federal police officers and the rest local.

The aviation police is a federal entity so basicly you can only recruit within those 11k.Great, enough people you'd think, however... passportcontrol is a specialized job for which a member of the border polive has to follow an extensive formation, so not open to just everybody. On top of that, all federal units are in dire need of extra staff and you just can't force anybody to do a job he/she didn't choose.

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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Homo Aeroportus » 23 Jul 2019, 20:28

Very remotely related to the BRU Infra topic here but ;)

Small article in the current edition of

AoW Jul19.jpg


ePassport Gates Extended.

Abstract :
The UK government has expanded the use of ePassport gates to seven(*) more countries allowing passengers to enter the UK quickly and securely…
(*) : Australia, Canada, Japan, New Zealand, Singapore South Korea and USA.

Home Secretary said : “Our new global immigration and border system will improve security and fluidity for passengers coming to visit or work in the UK.
The new system will help to drive our economy, cement our reputation as global leader and send a clear message to the world : The UK is open for business” …

There are 264 ePassport gates in operation at 15 air and rail terminals in the UK.

When there is a will, ...

H.A.

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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by jan_olieslagers » 23 Jul 2019, 20:35

... (or where there's a Brexit looming?) ;)

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Atlantis » 23 Jul 2019, 21:10

Regarding the E-Gates -> under the umbrella of the government. First point of the new government should be to implement much more E-Gates

But, the first part of the B-Pier is now also fully refurbished since a few years, one the same level after you passed security check in in the Connector.

It would be a good idea to start to refurbish also the lower part of the B-Pier, the whole arrival level. Now it is still too dark and dull with at the end a too narrow border control. In the middle the officers who are checking the passports and on the left side you have a few E-Gates.

Preferable would be of the whole level would be more lighter, more day light. This will reduce also the cost in electricity and smaller the footprint.
The area for border control should be in the same very modern State-of-the-art level as the security check in the Connector. A lot of daylight and full of E-Gates. Keep only a few officers there for extra checking, random cases, people who are not allowed to enter the country, etc etc

We have very modern technology, it should be used in a very modern airport. We have about 28 security check in, one of the biggest in Europe, but to enter the country via Border Control is way too small and not efficient.

Via E-Gates you have a much better control who is coming in.

But the government has to do something, they should have the will to do it.

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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by jan_olieslagers » 23 Jul 2019, 21:22

What has government to do with the BAC architecture? It is a private venture, isn't it?

And, as I've stated before, keep a clear distinction between short term and long term. Long term, your ideas may well be fine, though I wonder who is going to pay for them. Not the Belgian government, so much is clear - they're already short of money, actually very short.

But there is a more urgent problem on the short term, if I understand things all right.

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