Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Join this forum to discuss the latest news that happened in the world of commercial aviation.

Moderator: Latest news team

Post Reply
User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4250
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Atlantis » 14 Jul 2019, 15:45

JOVAN wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 14:25
sn26567 wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 14:11
Boavida wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 12:44
..., no communication...
Really?
Let us say "poor" communication.

Too many incidents happen at BRU[/b]. You can only blame the management.
Like in many companies, the top is OVERPAID.
Get too many bonuses.
Too busy pleasing Shareholders.

And Far Too Busy with their own portemonnee.

It is the disease of capitalism now. CEO's are often incompetent, but once they are in the circus they can move from one to the other company.
Headhunters support the system and continue to fish in the pond of incompetence.

BRU is now a real UNRIABLE Airport.
PAX avoid it; Airlines avoid it. Middle management does not care. Underpaid workers go on strike.


Do you have ANY proof that the airport is unriable? Where do you see that pax or airlines are avoiding it?
It is not visible bcs it is not. The airport is growing and growing, even more pax than the record of last year and no single airlines wants to avoid it, on the contrary, there are even more airlines in the pipeline who are more than willing to open a new line to BRU.

Regarding bonusses. Sorry but also a lot of "normal employees" are receiving a bonus and this in many companies.

Once again, all bashers have no single proof of anything. Very strange gray behavior......
It was even you, and I can quote your own words, that this management is even better and finally doing something with BRU than the previous managements who were under government management. Better knowing what you are saying not so long ago....

It's much better to be constructive than destructive in business, communication and social behavior....

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4250
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Atlantis » 14 Jul 2019, 15:49

sn26567 wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 15:36
jan_olieslagers wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 15:04
Let us say "poor" communication.
I would call it cheapo "blabla" - not one word of useful information.
What caused the issue?
How will pax get their bags?
When will pax get their bags?
Answers to these would bring information.
Passengers don't give a damn about what caused the issue. All they are interested in is "When shall I get my bags?" and "Who will pay for my expenses to buy missing necessary items?"

If BAC was interested only in paying out dividends to shareholders, this is going to hurt its profits and the payot to shareholders, thus it is very important for BAC to solve the problems and make sure it does not happen again.
Exactly Andre. Pax are not interested in any kind of information what was the reason. The same like pax are not interested what the livery or name is on the plane.

Airlines will bring the bags to the destination and airlines are in contact with BRU regarding the extra costs. This is all solved between the affected parties.

Boavida
Posts: 422
Joined: 14 Sep 2010, 23:54

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Boavida » 14 Jul 2019, 16:00

sn26567 wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 14:11
Boavida wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 12:44
..., no communication...
Really?
I was talking about the CEO. If I was the CEO of a company that -once again- failed in its core business affecting thousands(!) of people, I would communicate. I would apologise, explain the cause(s) of the problem and talk about the measures taken to avoid this in the future.

Like the (excellent) post of Atlantis, for example. This is good and useful information. People don't know this, they only hear and see the problems.

Let's hope for the rest of the summer BRU stays out of the (negative) spotlight and 'summer ops' run smoothly...

JOVAN
Posts: 423
Joined: 08 Jun 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by JOVAN » 14 Jul 2019, 16:22

Dear Atlantis,

I understand you are a bit nervous when reading some critical comments.

A lot of problems happened in recent months and years at BRU. TOO MANY. FAR TOO MANY.

Power failures, strikes of about every group of employees,..

And squeezing the sevice companies like baggage handlers is also not helping, because it all damages the reputation of the airport.

Brussels Airport is not growing and growing. It grows very slowly, very slowly.

For a city like Brussels, with such a fantastic location, one can only say that BRU is performing as a 3rd class airport.
That , dear Atlantis, is all because of poor management.

Call me basher or negative. I do not care. I call a problem a problem. That is realism.

User avatar
lumumba
Posts: 1613
Joined: 04 Sep 2003, 00:00
Location: brussels Europe

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by lumumba » 14 Jul 2019, 16:29

Atlantis wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 15:49
sn26567 wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 15:36
jan_olieslagers wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 15:04


I would call it cheapo "blabla" - not one word of useful information.
What caused the issue?
How will pax get their bags?
When will pax get their bags?
Answers to these would bring information.
Passengers don't give a damn about what caused the issue. All they are interested in is "When shall I get my bags?" and "Who will pay for my expenses to buy missing necessary items?"

If BAC was interested only in paying out dividends to shareholders, this is going to hurt its profits and the payot to shareholders, thus it is very important for BAC to solve the problems and make sure it does not happen again.
Exactly Andre. Pax are not interested in any kind of information what was the reason. The same like pax are not interested what the livery or name is on the plane.

Airlines will bring the bags to the destination and airlines are in contact with BRU regarding the extra costs. This is all solved between the affected parties.
Hey Atlantis.
I'm not a basher I'm a passenger and a client of Brussels airport.
And in my opinion the last years the quality of Brussels Airport went down in my opinion.
I will not make a list because it will be long and unnecessary to discuss every point but it's not a feeling.
I use this Airport 4 times a month it's about experience even when I discuss with my colleagues from other countries they are not happy with Brussels Airport.
Just one example I arrived from Frankfurt 3 weeks ago we waited 1 hour to get our bags....that's crazy!
Regards
Patrice
Hasta la victoria siempre.

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4250
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Atlantis » 14 Jul 2019, 16:44

JOVAN wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 16:22
Dear Atlantis,

I understand you are a bit nervous when reading some critical comments.

A lot of problems happened in recent months and years at BRU. TOO MANY. FAR TOO MANY.

Power failures, strikes of about every group of employees,..

And squeezing the sevice companies like baggage handlers is also not helping, because it all damages the reputation of the airport.

Brussels Airport is not growing and growing. It grows very slowly, very slowly.

For a city like Brussels, with such a fantastic location, one can only say that BRU is performing as a 3rd class airport.
That , dear Atlantis, is all because of poor management.

Call me basher or negative. I do not care. I call a problem a problem. That is realism.
I'm not nervous at all. I only give facts. But you claim that the airport is losing pax. I asked you to give proof. No proof was given by you.
Even when I quote your own words, no reaction. If I were you, I would myself keep silent bcs of contradictory words

That too many issues are happening is correct but strikes at Skeyes or handlers are due bcs of their way of working. Skeyes is a separate case but handlers are working on very thin margins. Competition is high even at BRU. We have now 3 handlers, at least for cargo, and they want to steal away their own employees. BRU is sitting together with all of the important players at the airport. BRU has to know what is going on with them, to take the temperature let say. But how they organize their work is under their regulations and responsibility. In case of strikes there are extra meetings as they have to explain why and what they will do. The same with Skeyes when BRU and the airlines were working together to force them to work again.

Hmm very interesting opinion of you regarding 3rd class airport. As far as I remember very clearly each worldwide event, the airport was awarded in many segments by the users of the airport. Good for a 3rd class airport, isn't it 😉

So once again, facts please and not your own believing, wishful thinking or black magic
Last edited by Atlantis on 14 Jul 2019, 16:54, edited 1 time in total.

Stij
Posts: 2195
Joined: 07 Mar 2005, 00:00
Location: Belgium

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Stij » 14 Jul 2019, 16:50

Atlantis wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 14:21
...
Your responses are the perfect example of an organisation that is centered around itself and doesn't even have an idea how their faults ruin their customers experience. Please google "Copernicus".

Could be we don't understand airline business, but you don't understand passenger business.

So. it's perfectly normal for Brussels Airport that in 3 months time, 3 days most of your pax leave without there luggage without ANY compensation? Brussels Airport screws up... passengers pay for whatever they need... without any compensation because the airline is not at fault.

Great! Perfect! I'll fly form DUS is the future... NEWSFLASH... just as a lot of people from Limburg and Liège who ARE already avoiding it now because of the events and mishaps of the last few months... And I live 25min from Brussels!!!

My parents are in Italy and there bags apparently haven't even left Brussels as we speak. Excellent... that will be a second day of buying stuff. All perfectly normal for Brussels Airport, passengers just don't understand and are ignorant). For you it all HAS BEEN taken care of, back to the order of the day. Well, for your customers it has't been solved, they don't even know when it will be solved, they just have to check a website and hope...

Yes, a baggage system that breaks down 3 days in 3 months is UNRELIABLE. And then we don't take into account the baggage handlers saga, the Skeyes saga, the border control saga, the "wait for the airport of the future, in the mean time burn some calories and get wet when you depart" saga...

Call me a basher, but being Belgian doesn't mean we have to accept all the imperfections and excuses of our national airport. On the contrary. We have to be critical so it remains alert because clearly from your responses, you live in a bubble. Foreigners never complain, they just avoid it when they can!

Brussels Airport, get your act together.

Stij

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4250
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Atlantis » 14 Jul 2019, 17:05

Stij wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 16:50
Atlantis wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 14:21
...
Your responses are the perfect example of an organisation that is centered around itself and doesn't even have an idea how their faults ruin their customers experience. Please google "Copernicus".

Could be we don't understand airline business, but you don't understand passenger business.

So. it's perfectly normal for Brussels Airport that in 3 months time, 3 days most of your pax leave without there luggage without ANY compensation? Brussels Airport screws up... passengers pay for whatever they need... without any compensation because the airline is not at fault.

Great! Perfect! I'll fly form DUS is the future... NEWSFLASH... just as a lot of people from Limburg and Liège who ARE already avoiding it now because of the events and mishaps of the last few months... And I live 25min from Brussels!!!

My parents are in Italy and there bags apparently haven't even left Brussels as we speak. Excellent... that will be a second day of buying stuff. All perfectly normal for Brussels Airport, passengers just don't understand and are ignorant). For you it all HAS BEEN taken care of, back to the order of the day. Well, for your customers it has't been solved, they don't even know when it will be solved, they just have to check a website and hope...

Yes, a baggage system that breaks down 3 days in 3 months is UNRELIABLE. And then we don't take into account the baggage handlers saga, the Skeyes saga, the border control saga, the "wait for the airport of the future, in the mean time burn some calories and get wet when you depart" saga...

Call me a basher, but being Belgian doesn't mean we have to accept all the imperfections and excuses of our national airport. On the contrary. We have to be critical so it remains alert because clearly from your responses, you live in a bubble. Foreigners never complain, they just avoid it when they can!

Brussels Airport, get your act together.

Stij
Dear Stij,

You really think that the airport is leaning backwards? The airport, together with the manufacturer, are solving the problem. The issue with those very busy months now is that a testing period is not that obvious. So it has to be done when it is calmer during the day or night.

Regarding Limburg, give me the figure how much pax we lost...
Again, facts please and don't speak for other people.

Regarding compensation. Ever heard about travel insurance??? Is case of travel insurance you are compensated for issues, if you don't, than it is on your own risk.
But in case of, the parties will propose of what they can regarding the nature of the cause.

Critical can be, not problem at all and you are welcome, but we speak about being constructive criticism. This is not what we can read here.

User avatar
sn26567
Posts: 35487
Joined: 13 Feb 2003, 00:00
Location: Rosières/Rozieren, Belgium
Contact:

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by sn26567 » 14 Jul 2019, 17:23

Atlantis wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 17:05
Regarding compensation. Ever heard about travel insurance??? Is case of travel insurance you are compensated for issues, if you don't, than it is on your own risk.
But in case of, the parties will propose of what they can regarding the nature of the cause.
No compensation in the absence of travel insurance, when Brussels Airport is clearly at fault? I think that you can expect a class-action suit from Test Aankoop/Test Achats!

If it was an airline, they would compensate, travel insurance or not. There is a European Regulation about it. I don't see why an airport, Brussels Airport in this case, would not compensate.
André
ex Sabena #26567

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4250
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Atlantis » 14 Jul 2019, 17:33

sn26567 wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 17:23
Atlantis wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 17:05
Regarding compensation. Ever heard about travel insurance??? Is case of travel insurance you are compensated for issues, if you don't, than it is on your own risk.
But in case of, the parties will propose of what they can regarding the nature of the cause.
No compensation in the absence of travel insurance, when Brussels Airport is clearly at fault? I think that you can expect a class-action suit from Test Aankoop/Test Achats!

If it was an airline, they would compensate, travel insurance or not. There is a European Regulation about it. I don't see why an airport, Brussels Airport in this case, would not compensate.
Exactly, so that is also what I wrote, in case of there will be a compensation

Stij
Posts: 2195
Joined: 07 Mar 2005, 00:00
Location: Belgium

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Stij » 14 Jul 2019, 18:19

Atlantis wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 17:05

Dear Stij,

You really think that the airport is leaning backwards? The airport, together with the manufacturer, are solving the problem. The issue with those very busy months now is that a testing period is not that obvious. So it has to be done when it is calmer during the day or night.

Regarding Limburg, give me the figure how much pax we lost...
Again, facts please and don't speak for other people.

Regarding compensation. Ever heard about travel insurance??? Is case of travel insurance you are compensated for issues, if you don't, than it is on your own risk.
But in case of, the parties will propose of what they can regarding the nature of the cause.

Critical can be, not problem at all and you are welcome, but we speak about being constructive criticism. This is not what we can read here.
Dear Atlantis,

I may hope you try to solve it... But breaking down 3 times in 3 months isn't normal and shouldn't have happened for such a critical system.

Of course I don't have numbers, just friends who first look at DUS instead of BRU... But ignore it if you want...

So we have to take extra insurance in case you screw up? Isn't that a bit "not taking responsibility"? BTW Fortunately Brussels Airport, nor other airports, nor airlines screw up so much an insurance is worth it when you fly often. Insurance companies make money after all.

But, please read what people are writing here... these are people that care about Belgian Aviation, including your airport... that use your airport and they... feel the experience isn't as it should be... Of course you don't have influence on everything, but on most aspects you have... Or course, you're free to ignore this free feedback and believe everything is perfect...

Kind regards,

Stij

Passenger
Posts: 6280
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Passenger » 14 Jul 2019, 19:55

For delayed luggage, the Montreal Convention applies (28/05/1999, entry into force 04/11/2003). For EU carriers, ‘Montreal 1999’ is explained in / strengthened by / detailled in EU Rule 2002/889:
EN:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 89&from=EN
NL:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 89&from=EN
FR:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content ... 89&from=EN

Basic principe, quote: “In case of baggage delay, the air carrier is liable for damage unless it took all reasonable measures to avoid the damage or it was impossible to take such measures. The liability for baggage delay is limited to 1000 SDRs (approximate amount in local currency).”

In the Montreal Convention and in EU-Rule 2002/889, there is no definition of “delay”. Reason for that: EU-Rule 261/2004 states that, in case of a delay, passengers are always entitled to a refund of costs and/or an indemnity. However, for luggage, in both ‘Montreal 1999’ and EU-Rule 2002/889, a delay as such is not enough: there must be a damage, caused by the delay. Example: a Belgian tourist, arriving at Brussels Airport and going back home, will most probably not encounter damage when his luggage is delivered to his home with a 24 hours delay. But for a Belgian tourist flying to Italy for a cruise holiday, 24 hours delay is dramatic.

So airlines have to recompense the passengers for these damages, caused by the delay. But as Atlantis already explained: airlines will claim it back from Brussels Airport, afterwards.

Regarding travel insurances: they indeed step in, almost unconditional, and they have a time definition. Example VAB Reisbijstand: “minimal delay 12 hours at holiday destination”. But for delays up to 21 days, travel insurances only cover the “necessary purchase of goods”, and only for a limited amount (for a basic insurance it's 250 €). When passengers claim to the insurance, they must provide their flight details. The insurance will pay out to the passenger, but the insurance will then claim that amount from the airline. And the airline will claim it from Brussels Airport...

A few airlines will waive responsibility because they say it’s overmacht / force majeure for them, will refer to the above basic principe (repeat: “…the air carrier is liable for damage unless it took all reasonable measures to avoid the damage or it was impossible to take such measures…”) So what is “a reasonable measure”? When 75% of your passengers risk to start their holiday without luggage, an extra waiting time of an hour isn’t that unreasonable. But just with their automatic refusal to pay the passenger indemnity (261/2004), some airlines will also refuse bagage claims. Solution: to go to court, and don't fly them again.

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4250
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Atlantis » 14 Jul 2019, 20:55

Thank you Passenger for your explanation. I knew that I could count on you on that.

@Stij,
If you book a holiday, flight ticket or what ever, they always ask you if you want to buy this extra travel insurance. So this is not new but already for decades. So why it is now such a surprise and why it has to do with waving away they responsibility? This is to protect you.
BTW, regarding delays in aviation. If you heard the new reports there will be even more delays in worldwide aviation, most partly bcs of traffic control

Regarding a few friends who are looking first at DUS. Of course, this is not a surprise either. Such as that people from Holland and North France are looking first at BRU. It has more to do with convinience.

And once more, we never away any comment or ignore it. We take the responsibility. Just like we want to be a good neighbour for our communities. We take care of noise, pollution, environment and we organize meetings with them to hear them.

In this business we can't ignore and we do everything to find solutions and to make your travel as much as pleasant. But with mutual respect

JOVAN
Posts: 423
Joined: 08 Jun 2006, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by JOVAN » 14 Jul 2019, 20:56

Stij wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 16:50
Atlantis wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 14:21
...
Your responses are the perfect example of an organisation that is centered around itself and doesn't even have an idea how their faults ruin their customers experience. Please google "Copernicus".

Could be we don't understand airline business, but you don't understand passenger business.

So. it's perfectly normal for Brussels Airport that in 3 months time, 3 days most of your pax leave without there luggage without ANY compensation? Brussels Airport screws up... passengers pay for whatever they need... without any compensation because the airline is not at fault.
Atlantis,

when you see Mr. Feist these next days please ask him to first present his apologies to all users of the airport for the malfunctions happening over and over again. An adbertisemnt inall newspapers can help.
ASk him to promise COMPENSATION to all users who got delays, travelled without luggage. etc.
I hope TEST AANKOOP / TEST ACHAT will open a Class action, so you take it seriously..

Also ask Mr. Feist to make clear what is done/ wil be done now to avoid this breakdowns in the future.
Not empty bla bla . Real measures and timing.

Accepting, recognizing there are huge problems and apologizing for them is a first step.
DENIAL is no longer possible.

Then promise to work on shorter queues at immigration, check in, baggaga delivery, shorter transfers, taxi queues, ..
Cleaner welcome area, exit, parking areas etc..
That is for the PAX.

then eventually talk to the airlines, your first degree customers. BRU is very expensive and offers a product so-so. They expect more and better services.

Once things are under control try to become a Top 20 Airport in Europe in terms of PAX (= a good measure !!). Next continue to become Top 15.
With Happy PAX it is possible.

Cheers

User avatar
Atlantis
Posts: 4250
Joined: 12 Apr 2005, 00:00

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Atlantis » 14 Jul 2019, 21:13

Dear JOVAN,

All those issues are already long on their way and spoken through the responsible parties. We know what to do, don't worry.

Stij
Posts: 2195
Joined: 07 Mar 2005, 00:00
Location: Belgium

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Stij » 14 Jul 2019, 21:26

Atlantis wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 20:55
Thank you Passenger for your explanation. I knew that I could count on you on that.

@Stij,
If you book a holiday, flight ticket or what ever, they always ask you if you want to buy this extra travel insurance. So this is not new but already for decades. So why it is now such a surprise and why it has to do with waving away they responsibility? This is to protect you.
BTW, regarding delays in aviation. If you heard the new reports there will be even more delays in worldwide aviation, most partly bcs of traffic control

Regarding a few friends who are looking first at DUS. Of course, this is not a surprise either. Such as that people from Holland and North France are looking first at BRU. It has more to do with convinience.

And once more, we never away any comment or ignore it. We take the responsibility. Just like we want to be a good neighbour for our communities. We take care of noise, pollution, environment and we organize meetings with them to hear them.

In this business we can't ignore and we do everything to find solutions and to make your travel as much as pleasant. But with mutual respect
Dear Atlantis,

In all honesty...

You only confirm my viewpoint...
We, as ordinary passengers, know where we are on your value chain.

As a moderator I can’t go any further...

Rest my case...

Stij...

Passenger
Posts: 6280
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Passenger » 14 Jul 2019, 22:02

For those who say that Brussels Airport doesn't invest enough:

"investment expenses" BAC in 2018: 176.900.000 € (source: National Bank Belgium).

Stij
Posts: 2195
Joined: 07 Mar 2005, 00:00
Location: Belgium

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Stij » 14 Jul 2019, 22:06

Passenger wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 22:02
For those who say that Brussels Airport doesn't invest enough:

"investment expenses" BAC in 2018: 176.900.000 € (source: National Bank Belgium).
Nobody stated the contrary... offices and shops to let aren’t built for free...

Stij

flightlover
Posts: 627
Joined: 12 Aug 2008, 08:26

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by flightlover » 14 Jul 2019, 22:24

Stij wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 22:06
Passenger wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 22:02
For those who say that Brussels Airport doesn't invest enough:

"investment expenses" BAC in 2018: 176.900.000 € (source: National Bank Belgium).
Nobody stated the contrary... offices and shops to let aren’t built for free...

Stij
2 firehouses, multiple de-icing trucks, snow clearing equipement etc. are nice investments for the operational quality of the airport but most of the time 'out of sight'.

For this year the investments will ad up to a higher number I suppose. They are re-constructing apron 3 and 9, building a few cargo warehouses improving parking, building a new baggage screening,...

Passenger
Posts: 6280
Joined: 06 Dec 2010, 20:54

Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Passenger » 14 Jul 2019, 22:31

These are the six most important investments from that 176.900.000 €:

- Nieuwe brandweerkazernes / Nouvelles casernes de pompiers;
- Skyhall renovatie / Rénovation du Skyhall;
- Centralisatie van de bussing services / Centralisation des services de bus;
- BRUcargo Real Estate ontwikkeling / BRUcargo Real Estate développement;
- Scanning baggage system / Système de scanning de bagages;
- Apron renovaties / Rénovation d'aprons.

Post Reply