Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by lumumba » 20 Jun 2019, 10:18

Conti764 wrote:
20 Jun 2019, 10:10
Atlantis wrote:
19 Jun 2019, 21:44
The next point, comes always back, is the direct connection of the E40 from Leuven to BRU.
Working on the airport, I very much welcome the idea. But is there already any idea on how it would run? Because between the airport and the E40 there is some pretty densely populated area.

About A-pier West, how certain is the delay mentioned earlier in this thread? Especially in the morning the airport is pretty much saturated. I've even seen a lot of SN-tails pretty far away on remote stands. A-pier West could relieve the pressure by moving SN Africa ops to free up space at the current T-gates which could be used as regular A-gates troughout the day.

And it becomes pretty clear the current terminal can hardly cope with the morning rush. It sometimes becomes overcrowded. T2 should really be in the plans to improve the passenger experience at BRU, even if it would be empty in the afternoon.
Another solution could be to open the satellite for charter and low cost flights for example would be less big investment.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

Matt
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Matt » 20 Jun 2019, 10:22

E40/R22/R0 are meant to be dealt with with the upcoming works on the Ring.

More info:

https://www.werkenaandering.be/nl/homepage

However, the Zaventem Interchange between the A201 and the R0 is a huge problem, haven't seen much plans for that.

The idiocy for this is: you go from the most left lane to the most right lane in 500 meters! and there is only 1 lane going to the airport or to the Nato. WHO TOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD IDEA ???????

Also he tram lines: I heard it was also a problem that the Brussels gouverment would like Flanders to pay for the infrastructure but not get any benefits from it. i.e. : let the Flemish pay and give them nothing in return for it.

A rumour tough. don't quote me on this !

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Conti764 » 20 Jun 2019, 16:50

lumumba wrote:
20 Jun 2019, 10:18
Conti764 wrote:
20 Jun 2019, 10:10
Atlantis wrote:
19 Jun 2019, 21:44
The next point, comes always back, is the direct connection of the E40 from Leuven to BRU.
Working on the airport, I very much welcome the idea. But is there already any idea on how it would run? Because between the airport and the E40 there is some pretty densely populated area.

About A-pier West, how certain is the delay mentioned earlier in this thread? Especially in the morning the airport is pretty much saturated. I've even seen a lot of SN-tails pretty far away on remote stands. A-pier West could relieve the pressure by moving SN Africa ops to free up space at the current T-gates which could be used as regular A-gates troughout the day.

And it becomes pretty clear the current terminal can hardly cope with the morning rush. It sometimes becomes overcrowded. T2 should really be in the plans to improve the passenger experience at BRU, even if it would be empty in the afternoon.
Another solution could be to open the satellite for charter and low cost flights for example would be less big investment.
They'll first have to move several offices from the building and the connection between the terminal and the satelite has been cut for the current protocolservice.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by lumumba » 20 Jun 2019, 16:55

But anyway they gone re open the satellite so they will make a passage.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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RoMax
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by RoMax » 20 Jun 2019, 21:41

Conti764 wrote:
20 Jun 2019, 16:50
lumumba wrote:
20 Jun 2019, 10:18

Another solution could be to open the satellite for charter and low cost flights for example would be less big investment.
They'll first have to move several offices from the building and the connection between the terminal and the satelite has been cut for the current protocolservice.
In the airport masterplan Strategic Vision 2040 it's foreseen to eventually built Pier C at the location of the current satellite. The office buildings Gateway and Passport have been built taking into account a corridor that will in the future connect the Skyhall/Old Terminal with a new Pier C. The Protocol 'building' is just minor infrastructure that can be easily moved elsewhere with the space retaken for the development of Pier C.

However anyway on the short term that's not a relevant discussion, Pier A West and the development of the multiple-purpose 'building 2' are primary developments in the terminal area.

BRU has crowded peak times, but it's not that it's in desperate need of physical capacity extension. At least not yet. The exact timing of any new very big infrastructure invesment also, as you can imagine, depends on the plans of SN/EW/LH in BRU and it's a but an uncertain period in terms of that to say the least.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Conti764 » 21 Jun 2019, 01:03

RoMax wrote:
20 Jun 2019, 21:41
Conti764 wrote:
20 Jun 2019, 16:50
lumumba wrote:
20 Jun 2019, 10:18

Another solution could be to open the satellite for charter and low cost flights for example would be less big investment.
They'll first have to move several offices from the building and the connection between the terminal and the satelite has been cut for the current protocolservice.
In the airport masterplan Strategic Vision 2040 it's foreseen to eventually built Pier C at the location of the current satellite. The office buildings Gateway and Passport have been built taking into account a corridor that will in the future connect the Skyhall/Old Terminal with a new Pier C. The Protocol 'building' is just minor infrastructure that can be easily moved elsewhere with the space retaken for the development of Pier C.

However anyway on the short term that's not a relevant discussion, Pier A West and the development of the multiple-purpose 'building 2' are primary developments in the terminal area.

BRU has crowded peak times, but it's not that it's in desperate need of physical capacity extension. At least not yet. The exact timing of any new very big infrastructure invesment also, as you can imagine, depends on the plans of SN/EW/LH in BRU and it's a but an uncertain period in terms of that to say the least.
Giving the time it takes to get anything done in Belgium and taking in consideration that in aviation things can change quickly, I wouldn't drag my feet if I was BRU. Just build A-pier West (the least) and a new terminal. At peak times it's really uncomfortable at the airport.

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lumumba
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by lumumba » 21 Jun 2019, 02:26

That's way with not to much to invest you can use the satellite even maybe for long haul flights because it's next to the B pier.

I even think it will bring enough capacity and maybe pier A west will not be necessary and it will be so much cheaper.
Hasta la victoria siempre.

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Conti764
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Conti764 » 21 Jun 2019, 08:58

lumumba wrote:
21 Jun 2019, 02:26
That's way with not to much to invest you can use the satellite even maybe for long haul flights because it's next to the B pier.

I even think it will bring enough capacity and maybe pier A west will not be necessary and it will be so much cheaper.
I disagree.

First of all, cheaper or not isn't really an issue of the BAC, which has very deep pockets and a lot of capital.

If the idea behind A-pier West is to cater for long haul flights, they should first move the T-gates over there freeing up space at that particular and rather large part of the A-pier. But for SN's Africa ops, the T-gates are a blessing since it allows for a smooth transit between European and African destinations, at least far easier then having European pax arrive at the A-pier, having them take a long walk passing the Connector, the B-pier, the old terminal, Passport and Gateway buildings, all up to the C-pier at the other end of the airport.

In my opinion if one day the C-pier would come, it should be reserved for non-alliance (whatever alliance is dominant at BRU at that time but supposingly it will be Star) Shengen flights.

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Atlantis » 21 Jun 2019, 10:36

Hi all,

To give you a bit of background of what I could read here.

The connection from the terminal to the Satellite is no an issue or problem even we have the Passport, Gateway and Diplomate building there. The corridor is already made when they constructed those buildings. This is the space between the building and the air side. Employees from BAC who are working in the C-pier and wants to go to the terminal or even to the restaurant in the Passport building, they just take this corridor. There is no access to the Diplomate building or whatever. So it is very easy in use and can be used for pax flow in the future.

The Satellite will become the heart of the new constructed C-pier. This is already on paper and from there the pax can go in the two directions the new C-pier will be. The C-pier will become reality when all other projects will be in use.

Currently they are making already free this Satellite. BAC is constructing a whole new admin building for BAC employees close to the terminal.

Like I wrote earlier, the construction of A-pier West who will not be in the next 4 to 5 years is bcs of several reasons.

JOVAN
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by JOVAN » 13 Jul 2019, 23:55

So sad to see there were again giant problems at BRU on saturday.

Now there is an operational problem every week or so.

If not a strike of fire brigade or skeyes or baggage handlers or customs or immigration officers, it is technical or software problem. Or something else.

For me the management of BRU has lost all credibilty.

No investmets for PAX, only big returns for the shareholders.

High Airport taxes.

Poor management. No care for PAX.

So Sad.

Stij
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Stij » 14 Jul 2019, 00:26

JOVAN wrote:
13 Jul 2019, 23:55
So sad to see there were again giant problems at BRU on saturday.

Now there is an operational problem every week or so.

If not a strike of fire brigade or skeyes or baggage handlers or customs or immigration officers, it is technical or software problem. Or something else.

For me the management of BRU has lost all credibilty.

No investmets for PAX, only big returns for the shareholders.

High Airport taxes.

Poor management. No care for PAX.

So Sad.
Very nice summary! I agree!

Stij

Jetter
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Jetter » 14 Jul 2019, 01:53

JOVAN wrote:
13 Jul 2019, 23:55
So sad to see there were again giant problems at BRU on saturday.

Now there is an operational problem every week or so.

If not a strike of fire brigade or skeyes or baggage handlers or customs or immigration officers, it is technical or software problem. Or something else.

For me the management of BRU has lost all credibilty.

No investmets for PAX, only big returns for the shareholders.

High Airport taxes.

Poor management. No care for PAX.

So Sad.
Well, management is primarily there to provide a maximum return on investment for shareholders. That's why it's a shame that the airport has been privatized unlike almost all airports in neighboring countries. This is the result. :(

Boavida
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Boavida » 14 Jul 2019, 12:44

I absolutely agree on the incompetence of BAC management. In any normal company there should be consequences after these numerous failures in keeping your core business running.

Where is Arnaud Feist, the CEO ? No explanation, no communication, no plan to prevent this in the future. He's nowhere to be seen. On holiday probably (via Schiphol I imagine) ...

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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by jan_olieslagers » 14 Jul 2019, 12:58

Looking on from a distance, I do not think BAC management are incompetent, not at all. Only their priorities are not what some of us could wish. Cfr @Jetter, above.

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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Homo Aeroportus » 14 Jul 2019, 14:07

I fully understand the frustration of those affected, arriving at destination without their luggage.

On the other hand, an airport baggage handling system is extremely complex.
I am certainly not a specialist in BHS and I stand to be corrected but let me give you an idea of this complexity.

First it spreads over dozens of kilometres of conveyors with thousands of motors, sensors, injections, tilters, scanners and more. Even with excellent individual component reliability, the large numbers are working against your efforts to maintain a high uptime at system level.

What it looks like :
Vanderlande.jpg
Airport-Baggage-Handling-Systems.jpg

Then the system is in operation most of the day and, being a continuous process, it is extremely difficult if not impossible to interrupt for repair/replacement. There are some redundancies (BRU has two sorters if my memory serves me well) and when traffic (volume) is low, you may put part of it out of service for maintenance which is otherwise done by a nightshift. But during the days of heavy traffic, any intervention creates an immediate backlog.

It is not a matter of lack of capacity, just something similar to a highway at peak hours. Even near max capacity, the flow remains constant until a single vehicle breaks down and creates havoc.

This is easily understandable when you consider a conveyor-belt type ; when it stops moving whether for a belt break or a motor overheating, the system comes to a hold. With a DCV (Destination Coded Vehicle) system, each piece of luggage is placed on a tray that is individually routed to its specific destination : the make-up carrousel for that very flight. With this system, an IT glitch leads you to a stimulating situation : which is which, where is it now and where was it supposed to go?

Another cause of concerns is the “X-Ray” screening. For years now 100% HBS (Hold Baggage Screening) is applied which means that every piece of luggage must go through a scanner (actually there are several in parallel) and when a bag is found suspicious it is routed for a second level screening, and finally to manual check if necessary. It is a fail-safe system whereby a “too zealous” scanner will take no risk in case of doubt and send that otherwise inoffensive bag to the next screening levels, saturating them and leading to a slowdown upstream.


So yes, I sympathize with those passengers affected but one should not blame those working hard to (try to) make the whole damn system work flawlessly.
“Sorter Crash” for those “down below” is equivalent to an AOG .

Of course, to make things more comfortable, one can build a second highway in parallel to serve as a backup and avoid disturbing the morning traffic ….

Oh, by the way, I almost forgot to mention it :
https://www.airport-technology.com/news ... ng-system/

Vanderlande has received a contract to upgrade the baggage handling system (BHS) at Brussels Airport in Belgium.
The contract is a part of a 20-year framework agreement signed between Vanderlande and Brussels Airport Company (BAC), operator of the Brussels Airport, in March 2019.
Upgrades will allow the airport to cater to its future requirements. The airport expects the annual passenger traffic to grow from the present 25 million to 40 million within the next 25 years.


H.A.

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sn26567
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by sn26567 » 14 Jul 2019, 14:11

Boavida wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 12:44
..., no communication...
Really?
André
ex Sabena #26567

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Atlantis
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by Atlantis » 14 Jul 2019, 14:21

There we go again with a number of bashers who actually don't know what is going on but they have of course their whole retoriek ready and blaming management, etc etc. Typical old fashion, very poor Belgian mentality.

The airport invested in 2012 in a whole new luggage system for the amount of 40 million euro. Practical speaking, the airport invested in more than 8 km long lanes of luggage belts who brings the luggage from the terminal to Pier A and B. Especially for Pier A was important bcs this was reaching it's maximum capacity. This means also that luggage didn't had to transport anymore over the tarmac, but under.

In 2017 the airport ordered for 100 million euro new screening facilities in 3D. As from 2022 it is even obligatory for each airport to know exactly what is in your luggage.

This is a very technical process. Of course there always can be something wrong. We are speaking about technology. This is never 100%. Look at your own environment. How many times you have a faillure in your phone, computer, household equipment, car, etc etc.

If you want to see how this all is working, I invite you to book the tours which the airport is organizing to see and to HEAR and UNDERSTAND how everything is working.

Ragarding the easy comments about "nothing for PAX", I even can tell you that PAX are central in the whole story. New seats in A and B, connections for your phone and laptop, new glass airbridges with airco are build at Pier B, new electric busses, automated busses from parkings and cargo to the terminal, new direct flight connections, enough places to eat, drink and shop. The whole new Brussels Airport Vision 2040 is for PAx to give a maximum of comfort. This list is even too short to sum up how PAX are central.

But of course there are always people who like to see life black instead of understanding how everything is working. If we ask them if they spoke with sb of the management or wrote on the many social media chanals, they they are all red on the cheeks.

Thank you all, have a wonderful positive Sunday and enjoy our wonderful airport which is time by time recognized by our millions of PAX as very pleasant, very convenient and very professional. This by pax, users, the business itself and the aviation world which we see worldwide in each multiple times a year events.

JOVAN
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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by JOVAN » 14 Jul 2019, 14:25

sn26567 wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 14:11
Boavida wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 12:44
..., no communication...
Really?
Let us say "poor" communication.

Too many incidents happen at BRU[/b]. You can only blame the management.
Like in many companies, the top is OVERPAID.
Get too many bonuses.
Too busy pleasing Shareholders.

And Far Too Busy with their own portemonnee.

It is the disease of capitalism now. CEO's are often incompetent, but once they are in the circus they can move from one to the other company.
Headhunters support the system and continue to fish in the pond of incompetence.

BRU is now a real UNRIABLE Airport.
PAX avoid it; Airlines avoid it. Middle management does not care. Underpaid workers go on strike.

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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by jan_olieslagers » 14 Jul 2019, 15:04

Let us say "poor" communication.
I would call it cheapo "blabla" - not one word of useful information.
What caused the issue?
How will pax get their bags?
When will pax get their bags?
Answers to these would bring information.

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Re: Brussels Airport (BRU) infrastructure: future

Post by sn26567 » 14 Jul 2019, 15:36

jan_olieslagers wrote:
14 Jul 2019, 15:04
Let us say "poor" communication.
I would call it cheapo "blabla" - not one word of useful information.
What caused the issue?
How will pax get their bags?
When will pax get their bags?
Answers to these would bring information.
Passengers don't give a damn about what caused the issue. All they are interested in is "When shall I get my bags?" and "Who will pay for my expenses to buy missing necessary items?"

If BAC was interested only in paying out dividends to shareholders, this is going to hurt its profits and the payot to shareholders, thus it is very important for BAC to solve the problems and make sure it does not happen again.
André
ex Sabena #26567

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