Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

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jan_olieslagers
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Yes indeed. Perhaps the differences in workload will be even more striking.

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KriVa
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by KriVa »

More than a few civil ATCOs are ex military. Working conditions, traffic load, salary,... are hardly a secret.
Thomas

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sn26567
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 »

Strange that nobody mentioned yet that the West sector will be closed tonight from 01:30 to 04:30 because ATCOs called in sick...

NOTAM A2436/19
From:12 JUL 19 23:30 Till:13 JUL 19 02:30
Text:BRUSSELS ACC SECTORS NORTH LOW, WEST HIGH, WEST LOW CLSD DUE TO STAFF SHORTAGE. EMERG FREQ ARE WATCHED
André
ex Sabena #26567

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sn26567
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sn26567 »

KriVa wrote:
10 Jul 2019, 14:28
More than a few civil ATCOs are ex military. Working conditions, traffic load, salary,... are hardly a secret.
General Vansina, chief of the BAF, told me at a recent conference that military ATCOs were earning FIVE times less than skeyes ATCOs.

And they are not allowed to strike!

How are they ever going to live together?
André
ex Sabena #26567

PttU
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by PttU »

sn26567 wrote:
18 Jul 2019, 08:30
KriVa wrote:
10 Jul 2019, 14:28
More than a few civil ATCOs are ex military. Working conditions, traffic load, salary,... are hardly a secret.
General Vansina, chief of the BAF, told me at a recent conference that military ATCOs were earning FIVE times less than skeyes ATCOs.

And they are not allowed to strike!

How are they ever going to live together?
No-one is in the military only for the money, right?

SR20
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 »

The management of skeyes wants to push a crucial agreement on the joint committee today. But because of the resistance of the Christian and the liberal trade union, the social unrest threatens to flare up again.

https://www.tijd.be/ondernemen/luchtvaa ... 63367.html

https://www.lecho.be/entreprises/aviati ... 63574.html

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

I had a feeling I would be responding here again today after a silent summer.

The agreement might be crucial for our CEO to have more (full) control over the rostering and planning of staff but it solves none of the issues the company is faced with.
Once again, it is displayed how good this management really is in reactive action, short term problemshooting and -solving and ignoring their staff as much as possible.
The staff shortage, the european demand for fatigue measures and a framework for rostering rules (maxima and minima) , the violations of rules and laws, ...
None of it is dealt with in this agreement.


mvg
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg »

Reading the article on HLN, if we can trust what the journalist wrote, Mr Callaerts said that some ATCOs are still rostered with 15 shifts over 16 days... That isn’t true...

It’s a total mess over there: I recently saw an Atco yelling at his manager because of a procedure and one hour later the same manager was yelling at another manager in a meeting about the same subject. That’s their way of communicating: if they are not happy, they shout and refuse to accept decisions or to follow procedures. How do you want a company to be running correctly like that?
Of course not everyone is doing things in this way but a minority of people behaving like kids can quickly have a bad influence on the rest of the group.

Times have changed. Airlines and airports have changed: its high time for them to change as well.

Bracebrace
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Bracebrace »

Sounds like too much ego in one place, both up & down the ladder...?

Phoenixx
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Phoenixx »

mvg wrote:
04 Oct 2019, 06:30
Reading the article on HLN, if we can trust what the journalist wrote, Mr Callaerts said that some ATCOs are still rostered with 15 shifts over 16 days... That isn’t true...

It’s a total mess over there: I recently saw an Atco yelling at his manager because of a procedure and one hour later the same manager was yelling at another manager in a meeting about the same subject. That’s their way of communicating: if they are not happy, they shout and refuse to accept decisions or to follow procedures. How do you want a company to be running correctly like that?
Of course not everyone is doing things in this way but a minority of people behaving like kids can quickly have a bad influence on the rest of the group.

Times have changed. Airlines and airports have changed: its high time for them to change as well.
Have you seen our rosters then with your own eyes?
Because I have, and it is true one person is rostered with 15/16.
Aside from this one case, there are over 20 other violations -of the law- in octobers roster, more specifically the mandatory 35h rest period per week. Over 20 in one month.
Do you think that is a normal way of working?

New "procedures" are introduced and existing ones rewritten without proper safety cases, with the sole purpose of continuing operations.
Controllers are pushed and intimidated to break policies and violate protocols if it would mean avoiding airspace closure or problematicly low traffic rates.
Safety is literally discarded in favor of continuity.
Obviously we are mad when confronted with this.
Wouldn't you be as an aviation professional?

I do agree it's a total mess over here though.
Can you imagine our excitement thinking of working under this CEO for another term?

SR20
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by SR20 »

Phoenixx wrote:
04 Oct 2019, 14:56
Can you imagine our excitement thinking of working under this CEO for another term?
Dominique Leroy, former Proximus CEO, is available, isn't she ? :D :D

jan_olieslagers
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by jan_olieslagers »

Wahahahah!! :) :) Spot on! Voire "Touché" :) !

Poiu
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by Poiu »

SR20 wrote:
04 Oct 2019, 16:26
Phoenixx wrote:
04 Oct 2019, 14:56
Can you imagine our excitement thinking of working under this CEO for another term?
Dominique Leroy, former Proximus CEO, is available, isn't she ? :D :D
Not for a Skyes salary!


mvg
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg »

Phoenixx wrote:
04 Oct 2019, 14:56
mvg wrote:
04 Oct 2019, 06:30
Reading the article on HLN, if we can trust what the journalist wrote, Mr Callaerts said that some ATCOs are still rostered with 15 shifts over 16 days... That isn’t true...

It’s a total mess over there: I recently saw an Atco yelling at his manager because of a procedure and one hour later the same manager was yelling at another manager in a meeting about the same subject. That’s their way of communicating: if they are not happy, they shout and refuse to accept decisions or to follow procedures. How do you want a company to be running correctly like that?
Of course not everyone is doing things in this way but a minority of people behaving like kids can quickly have a bad influence on the rest of the group.

Times have changed. Airlines and airports have changed: its high time for them to change as well.
Have you seen our rosters then with your own eyes?
Because I have, and it is true one person is rostered with 15/16.
Aside from this one case, there are over 20 other violations -of the law- in octobers roster, more specifically the mandatory 35h rest period per week. Over 20 in one month.
Do you think that is a normal way of working?

New "procedures" are introduced and existing ones rewritten without proper safety cases, with the sole purpose of continuing operations.
Controllers are pushed and intimidated to break policies and violate protocols if it would mean avoiding airspace closure or problematicly low traffic rates.
Safety is literally discarded in favor of continuity.
Obviously we are mad when confronted with this.
Wouldn't you be as an aviation professional?

I do agree it's a total mess over here though.
Can you imagine our excitement thinking of working under this CEO for another term?
Yes I have seen the rosters: no one has 15 shifts of work over a period of 16 days, as stated in the newspaper’s article. There is a mix between the words « shifts » and « days ».
As discussed before, working two nights (TWO shifts) counts for FOUR days. An Atco cannot pretend that he/she works FOUR days if he/she goes TWO times to work...

20 violations in a month: if you consider the old rules maybe. Not saying that the new ones are great but they very much look like what is done in other companies.

A safety case for new fostering rules? That doesn’t exist... A safety case (or safety review) is necessary to implement new operational procedures. It does not exist for rostering. A fatigue survey might be more appropriate. There are companies that conduct such studies with professionals.

I do understand that you are mad about those changes. When you have such great conditions and some of them are taken away, it’s never funny. Many aviation companies had to go through this over the last 20 years. Yours must be the last one which hasn’t gone through such a process. It’s time now to do it to avoid another Sabena or one of the other companies that went bankrupt recently.
The employees who are not happy about it can always look elsewhere and try to apply for a job with similar conditions: that doesn’t exist!

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KriVa
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by KriVa »

Tell that to people who recently moved to other ANSPs. Skyguide, LVNL, Eurocontrol, NATS, to name a few. None of those who left is even marginally interested in returning. Why do you think that is? Sure, we’re the odd one out, but not on the positive side of the scale these days.
By the end of this month we’ll have to have provided a list to planning with who will work which night shift in February. The final version of the planning for February will be released the second week of January. Good luck managing you private life!
On top of that, absolutely nobody knows what the new shifts will look like. We have no clue how long a night shift will last as from February forward, how much staff there will be, what the overlap will be between successive shifts, whether there will even be an overlap.
All in the name of continuity, safety and quality of life for the employees is very low on the list (which has been confirmed in writing, black on white).
Thomas

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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by sean1982 »

KriVa wrote:
05 Oct 2019, 12:17

By the end of this month we’ll have to have provided a list to planning with who will work which night shift in February. The final version of the planning for February will be released the second week of January. Good luck managing you private life!
Like every pilot, cabin crew member, dispatcher (to name a few) in the world, with that difference that they dont have anything to say about said roster. Again, lets puts stuff into perspective, There are enough nine to five jobs available.

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KriVa
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by KriVa »

I know a few pilots who I’d consider to be personal friends, and except for one, they all get their roster one month in advance. The one that’s an exception is due to the nature of the company he flies for, a (subcharter) cargo operator.
I don’t consider it a secret that I’ve been a cabin crew member for a few years myself. Again, same story, roster one month in advance. This allows people some time to arrange their private lives. I haven’t heard of a company where a bidding system isn’t implemented either. Whether it’s based on seniority or a rotation of groups, bidding for certain flights/days off etc. exists in pretty much any decent airline. The same thing is true for us. Contrary to what the media would have you believe, we don’t make the rosters ourselves and we don’t get everything we want. From time to time we’ll miss a birthday party, social event,... as well, same for everybody else who works in shifts. That isn’t, and never has been, a problem for any of us, you know that that’ll be part of life from day one.
What we do have an issue with is knee-jerk reactions.
Everybody who decides to fill in a night for February 2020 is signing a blank check. Nobody knows what the new shifts will look like, and the signs don’t show them being fatigue friendly.
You make it sound like we hate our job. Nothing could be further from the truth. We, or at the very least the large majority, love what we do, else we wouldn’t stick around. Its not an easy job, but it can be very fulfilling. What we don’t like about it should be rather obvious by now.

EDIT to clarify: The only thing we “have to say” about our rosters is an option to let planning know which nights we’d prefer to work. This list is generally copied 1:1 because it makes the life of the planning cell a lot easier and it allows employees to be a little proactive in regards to their personal life. If, for whatever reason, that night list is not completely filled out, the open nights are either assigned at random or a call is made whether anybody is still interested.
Thomas

mvg
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Re: Social actions at air navigation service provider skeyes (Belgium) - possible air traffic disruptions

Post by mvg »

Glad that someone is talking about the working conditions at NATS. Let me share a few differences with your company:
- NATS shifts last 8 hours: no early leave. Yours last officially 7 hours and most of them last only 6 hours. Over 20 days of work (usual amount of days worked in UK in a month), they work 40 hours more each month... As days last 6 hours in your company, it is equivalent to 6 or 7 days per month and brings you to your 26-27 days every month.
You don’t work more than in NATS BUT...

- in NATS they work on a 6/4 basis (6 days on, 4 days off (3 + sleep day)): no roster request, no night request: they have to work and follow the planning as it comes. You can make requests and many of them are fulfilled. Some of you only work mostly mornings, some never work nights: this is just amazing for such a job!

- salary is approximately 1000€ more after tax in UK but have you seen their pension scheme?? They will get way less than your 3500€ per month after tax! And for sure they will have to work later than you! Should we also mention the amount of traffic they have compared to Brussels?

- in NATS if you have a few incidents you can be fired without having anything to say. Not a single controller in your company has ever been in such a position. Never ever! Even when it was proved that an incident had been cause by neglect. Your job is so safe!

- in NATS, if they lose their medical, they lose their job. As a State employee, you are guarantee a job AT THE SAME PAYSCALE for the rest of your career! This is amazing as well! Ask pilots how it works for them! They have to pay a lot of money for a loss of income insurance to cover such case... And generally, they are only covered for a few years. You are covered for the rest of your life!

- and let’s just mention the quality of service delivered in the UK... We are talking about different jobs...

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