Brussels Airlines in 2019

[Matt]

On the other hand, SN never was a true stand alone cartier within the LH group. For years, LH only held a minority stake and, accept for a survival loan, didn't interfere much in SN's business. When SN became fully owned, it immediately got placed under EW-umbrella.

It remains to be seen how CF and her team want to turn around SN. One thing that comes to mind is the ending of former TCB-routes and moving them to EW, expanding again in Africa, the real milk cow of SN. I don't think we have to expect any other longhaul development outside Africa in the foreseeable future.

I agree we dont have to expect any longhaul development in the near future ( except maybe new routes to Windhoek ( a man can dream ), CPT and JNB or other africa destinations) JNB might need an A340 to be profitable tough...

JNB or CPT is a little overly optimistic. For growth to Africa I'd rather look to upgrading current destinations and maybe reinstall former, terminated destinations.

A man can never be too optimistic But as I said: JNB is a special airport and Brussels Airlines doesnt have A340's. ( I hope they never will tbh ) I think Nairobi is not too optimistic tough...

[Atlantis]

Hi Passenger,

I agree with you. There are a few important things since this week and let it be more clear to everybody. The brand name of Brussels Airlines will remain. This is confirmed now by the CEO of SN and confirmed after by the unions. If they still would change it after 3 months or still would do sth completely different with SN after the statements in public since yesterday, who would believe those people then? Their credibility would be very much damaged. I think they are smart enough, let's hope, to not play around. How they think to negotiate with the strong unions if they just would lie in public? I think that the first lines and clear talk is set by yesterday.

SN has to do an effort to be profitable again. Of course. Each airline has it very difficult now with high fuel prices, pressure on ticket prices, strikes, etc
But it would be good also to check the destination map of SN. They took over the whole portfolio of Thomas Cook Airlines. This was nice bcs more customers but if it is profitable, we don't know. It would be better if it could be devided, like in the past with Sabena and Sobelair. Or just the creation of a new charter company next to Jetair. This to let SN fly to pure business destinations


To all other members: of course there was no sign of SN in all the slides who was presented yesterday. SN is still in that part of EW. They announced to stop this and within 3 months we will know more. If SN would have been visible now, then they also could announce the whole new strategy already for SN.
So calm down and just wait.

Regarding new destinations. First newer airplanes who are more fuel efficient. It is not makes sence for trying to be profitable when you are flying with old birds. New destinations can be later but then first into Africa to take some % back from AF/KLM - Turkish Airlines, etc. New destinations in The States as feeder to Africa

[Stij]

JNB or CPT is a little overly optimistic. For growth to Africa I'd rather look to upgrading current destinations and maybe reinstall former, terminated destinations.

Althought CPT is high on my personal wishlist... I doubt it... to much low yield VFR...
It's probably better for the hub to go deeper before to go wider, thus go daily to all destinations, open missing points in West and Central Africa and reduce the stops...

On tourist destinations... why would they gove them EW?
Can't they be good for fleet utilization in the middle of the day and during the weekends?

Cheers,

Stij

[Poiu]

First newer airplanes who are more fuel efficient. It is not makes sence for trying to be profitable when you are flying with old birds. New destinations can be later but then first into Africa to take some % back from AF/KLM - Turkish Airlines, etc. New destinations in The States as feeder to Africa

I don’t think they would call it a “turnaround plan” if it was about new destinations, increasing frequencies and shiny new jets. When I hear turnaround plan, I read cost reduction, closing loss making routes and increase productivity.

[Conti764]

JNB or CPT is a little overly optimistic. For growth to Africa I'd rather look to upgrading current destinations and maybe reinstall former, terminated destinations.

Althought CPT is high on my personal wishlist... I doubt it... to much low yield VFR...
It's probably better for the hub to go deeper before to go wider, thus go daily to all destinations, open missing points in West and Central Africa and reduce the stops...

On tourist destinations... why would they gove them EW?
Can't they be good for fleet utilization in the middle of the day and during the weekends?

Cheers,

Stij

If the touristic ops prove to be profitable, there won't be a need to axe them. I know a plane only generates revenue in the air, but if it's losing money while flying they'd rather keep it on the ground. LH may have 'given in' bit SN rests under German scrutiny, even as a network carrier. In times when every euro seems to count they might chose to axe most unprofitable routes which don't contribute a lot to SN's profitable long haul routes.

I can also image LHG transfering some SN planes to EW for their ops. After all, SN's and EW's hybrid A320-family are more or less alike so planes can be easily moved throughout the group with only a new paint.

[Conti764]

I agree we dont have to expect any longhaul development in the near future ( except maybe new routes to Windhoek ( a man can dream ), CPT and JNB or other africa destinations) JNB might need an A340 to be profitable tough...

JNB or CPT is a little overly optimistic. For growth to Africa I'd rather look to upgrading current destinations and maybe reinstall former, terminated destinations.

A man can never be too optimistic But as I said: JNB is a special airport and Brussels Airlines doesnt have A340's. ( I hope they never will tbh ) I think Nairobi is not too optimistic tough...

In theory, SN doed have A340's

[jan_olieslagers]

JNB or CPT is a little overly optimistic.

Wasn't there a BRU-JNB service some 5 or 10 years ago? With a certain degree of success, even? I vaguely remember Sobelair, A340, ..? Though that seems an unlikely combination.

[convair]

Well, I have been beating the wrong (EW) drum quite a lot and quite loud lately....
I didn’t see this one coming, my analyses have been embarrassingly wrong!
The only thing I got correct is that cutting costs is a necessary and urgent matter.
All the euphoric comments on here are a bit premature though. In the past, Brussels Airlines was not viable as a stand-alone in the LH group, why would that have changed? The real intentions will only become clear once the turnaround plan will be announced.

Very fair and honest from you, Poiu. And I agree with you about the premature euphoria. It will be a hard job for SN, like for many other airlines, to return to (and keep) profitability, but I think, and hope of course, that they now have a better chance.
I hope EW will succeed too, btw. In the structure set up previously it would have been impossible, imho: it was too complex for a smooth operation; in French, such a complicated organization would have been called "une usine à gaz". Literally translated to "a gas factory", but rather alluding to the complexity of the piping of an oil refinery . It was bound to bring down both SN and EW.

[Conti764]

JNB or CPT is a little overly optimistic.

Wasn't there a BRU-JNB service some 5 or 10 years ago? With a certain degree of success, even? I vaguely remember Sobelair, A340, ..? Though that seems an unlikely combination.

Sabena flew JNB back in the nineties.

[Matt]

JNB or CPT is a little overly optimistic.

Wasn't there a BRU-JNB service some 5 or 10 years ago? With a certain degree of success, even? I vaguely remember Sobelair, A340, ..? Though that seems an unlikely combination.

Sobelair was the last one using a 767-300er till 2003, but that was really unprofitable because of the fact the 767 couldnt be fully loaded. ( I remember this very well, the last few rows were empty because of this )

The range is there, but JNB is a 'hot and high' airport. ( this is the reason why LX is still flying A340's to JNB )

A 777 works appearently, but they receive penalties because they need to take off at n1 of 99% if I remember correctly. 787's have reduced cargo and Turkish uses an a330, but they stop in Maputo and that's only a 9 hour flight.

[convair]

First newer airplanes who are more fuel efficient. It is not makes sence for trying to be profitable when you are flying with old birds. New destinations can be later but then first into Africa to take some % back from AF/KLM - Turkish Airlines, etc. New destinations in The States as feeder to Africa

Quite a few calls for new planes, but so far no factual argument. Could someone present a cost comparison between a 20 years old and a factory new plane, including lease cost, fuel cost, maintenance cost and others, if any?
BTW, as OO-SFV left the fleet a couple of days ago, the oldest A333 is now OO-SFW going 25; it is supposed to leave in September. The "new" ones, coming from Cathay and Singapore are all less than 12, the youngest is going 10.

Of the 4 332s, 2 will leave shortly (1 should have left already but it was apparently postponed due to the delay in arrival of the "new" A333s), the remaining 2 will be the oldest l/h planes of the subfleet and I understood they'll go on for a couple of years.

[Matt]

After some googling, for the old guys a post from here in 2003!

viewtopic.php?t=471

[convair]

Sobelair was the last one using a 767-300er till 2003, but that was really unprofitable because of the fact the 767 couldnt be fully loaded. ( I remember this very well, the last few rows were empty because of this )

The range is there, but JNB is a 'hot and high' airport. ( this is the reason why LX is still flying A340's to JNB )

A 777 works appearently, but they receive penalties because they need to take off at n1 of 99% if I remember correctly. 787's have reduced cargo and Turkish uses an a330, but they stop in Maputo and that's only a 9 hour flight.

Why not test the water with a 2 or 3 weekly, as an extension of the Entebbe or Kigali?

[Matt]

Sobelair was the last one using a 767-300er till 2003, but that was really unprofitable because of the fact the 767 couldnt be fully loaded. ( I remember this very well, the last few rows were empty because of this )

The range is there, but JNB is a 'hot and high' airport. ( this is the reason why LX is still flying A340's to JNB )

A 777 works appearently, but they receive penalties because they need to take off at n1 of 99% if I remember correctly. 787's have reduced cargo and Turkish uses an a330, but they stop in Maputo and that's only a 9 hour flight.

Why not test the water with a 2 or 3 weekly, as an extension of the Entebbe or Kigali?

Because I want options

[Ansett]

@ Atlantis : of course, there is no point in bringing back Gustin and he would probably wisely turn the offer down.
To quote you : "When I hear turnaround plan, I read cost reduction, closing loss making routes and increase productivity". Yes, of course, you are right in the sense that this is an employer's point of view. Now, employers are not always right (CS perhaps )

Although I was VERY sceptical towards CF in the beginning, I start to gain some confidence in her.

However, when se says that European flights have to become profitable, too, I'm getting sceptical again, because, correct if I'm wrong, LH's European flights are or were not profitable either. Hence the creation of EW and the decision of having LH only operate European feeder flight to FRA and MUC.

Long-haul PTP is seldom profitable (see EW). Long-haul flights need loss making feeder flights to be profitable : "connecting vessels" (it even becomes a play on words in English).

[Av24.be]

Closing down routes is not always a good idea: it will make the competition stronger and will also attack your profitable routes. It’s a difficult task!

[saratoga]

Closing down routes is not always a good idea: it will make the competition stronger and will also attack your profitable routes. It’s a difficult task!

Thatswhy giving those routes to a acmi partner!!

[C96C]

Maybe we can also expect an new (or updated) livery? The current one doesn't meet the LH-group livery 'rules' (read: a white livery with only a coloured tail and the brandname in front).

[lucas]

Maybe we can also expect an new (or updated) livery? The current one doesn't meet the LH-group livery 'rules' (read: a white livery with only a coloured tail and the brandname in front).

I don't think so. Their first matter is to make the airline more profitable. Painting aircraft is something SN just can't afford right now. Maybe in a couple of years, they will.

[jan_olieslagers]

It is often done as part of maintenance. One level of check (C? D?) requires stripping the paint so it must be redone anyway.